Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I tend to agree with Mushkilla with a few exceptions.

I used to play a double WWP list and "no assaulting from reserves" basically ruined my army.

However, I think Dash's last DE build would still be competitive due to the sheer volume of fire. Pre-measuring everything helps DE maintain the perfect distance for their shooting while limiting return fire.

I think the new Eldar and Tau books hurt DE more than the new rules in 6th. DE+Eldar are very strong right now though.

DE did not get worse. Of course we still have units that are sub-par ...probably in order ... decapitaor, duke (yes he sucks), lelith (use to be able to build a list around her), wwps, scourges(there are simply better ways to get haywire or AT) ... we still have overpriced DLs and Blasters. But overall, well DE is still quite playable and as mentioned better in many respects.

However, I think Dash's last DE build would still be competitive due to the sheer volume of fire. Pre-measuring everything helps DE maintain the perfect distance for their shooting while limiting return fire.

Pre measuring is godly. Fleet is now way better. FNP is quite good. At is better. Eldar allies can now buff us very well.


And welcome back dash ... cannot wait to see what you come up with.

 redkeyboard wrote:
witht he reduced amount of mech the dark lances kinda lost some value.

And the poison shots have gotten a lot more value. Which do most DE armies have more of? Poison or lances?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mandor wrote:
However, 6th edition also made half of the units in the DE codex (next to) useless.

To be fair, most of those were useless before hand. Mandrakes come to mind...

Thanks for all the replies thus far.

I'm interested in what seems to be an oxymoronic theme - shooting got better, but I see a lot of disparaging of Dark Eldar. In 5th edition, Dark Eldar were an extremely potent shooting army; my flagship "Darklight Storm" was very shooting heavy; MSU venom spam with splinter cannons.

I'd think that they'd be overpowered if shooting got buffed.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Hello Dakka. It's been a couple years.

Can anyone point me to a useful guide on 6th edition? What changed? What it means? How to play? I haven't picked up a model in two years, and am rusty in general but wouldn't mind a starting point.

Nice to see you back Dash. I used to follow your posts about Tau and Orks back in the day. I also am just getting back into the hobby after almost two years. There is a lot to learn with a new edition and many new codex's. I'll be looking forward to following your posts in the future. Cheers.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Thanks for all the replies thus far.

I'm interested in what seems to be an oxymoronic theme - shooting got better, but I see a lot of disparaging of Dark Eldar. In 5th edition, Dark Eldar were an extremely potent shooting army; my flagship "Darklight Storm" was very shooting heavy; MSU venom spam with splinter cannons.

I'd think that they'd be overpowered if shooting got buffed.

I put it down to this:

Their flickerfields are all but redundant with jink, transports in general (which DE have a large reliance on) have been nerfed with HPs, and the venom is now laughably easy to put down with only 2 to call it's own.

Firing out of transports is now significantly worse, removing much of DE's 5th ed mobility, you can no longer contest with vehicles or score from them, removing their utility in objective missions.

They do have the advantage of being largely counter the MC-heavy meta, though mechdar will absolutely rip them apart.

They are frankly underpowered when direct comparisons are made between them and other codices (Eldar are the most prominent example) , though I am sure player skill (*cough* *cough*) would make up for that to an extent,

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

Firing out of transports is now significantly worse

The rules for shooting of out transports haven't changed but the changes to rapid fire mean that you can shoot up to 24" if you've moved up to 6" and snap shot w/ anything if you move up to 12". It looks to me like shooting from transports, especially from open topped transports, got better not worse.

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

Firing out of transports is now significantly worse

The rules for shooting of out transports haven't changed but the changes to rapid fire mean that you can shoot up to 24" if you've moved up to 6" and snap shot w/ anything if you move up to 12". It looks to me like shooting from transports, especially from open topped transports, got better not worse.

Charging out of an open-topped vehicle got nerfed since the vehicle cannot move more than 6''. Moreover, overwatch hurts charging units with lower armor saves like Wyches or whatnot.

On the other hand, Beasts got better since they ignore difficult terrain. Coupled with the right HQs (Baron and Farseer powers) they can be really nasty.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

Firing out of transports is now significantly worse

The rules for shooting of out transports haven't changed but the changes to rapid fire mean that you can shoot up to 24" if you've moved up to 6" and snap shot w/ anything if you move up to 12". It looks to me like shooting from transports, especially from open topped transports, got better not worse.

Charging out of an open-topped vehicle got nerfed since the vehicle cannot move more than 6''. Moreover, overwatch hurts charging units with lower armor saves like Wyches or whatnot.

Yup, CC did take a bit of a hit for high priced/low armour save units (wyches for example) but that's got nothing to do with shooting from vehicles. As far as i can see it, that's gotten better, so i'm wondering where Imotekh is coming from

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Thanks for all the replies thus far.

I'm interested in what seems to be an oxymoronic theme - shooting got better, but I see a lot of disparaging of Dark Eldar. In 5th edition, Dark Eldar were an extremely potent shooting army; my flagship "Darklight Storm" was very shooting heavy; MSU venom spam with splinter cannons.

I'd think that they'd be overpowered if shooting got buffed.

In general the first thing you have to grasp in 6th is that stuff just dies if people focus it, I don't think there is any one rule which make it play like this, but I've found that all my 6th edition games have been much bloodier affairs than the average game in 5th. Shooting hurts more (and there is more of it) and assaults tend to happen faster. For Dark Eldar this really really hurts them, because they got nothing out of the edition changes which help them stay alive and when most games end up turning into gunline brawls Dark Eldar tend to come out on the bottom. Tbh I don't think Dark Eldar got anything positive out of the edition changes directly, its just the general trend of more infantry based lists showing up that keep them slightly relevant.

On the other hand they did get heaps of bad things from the edition change, so essentially you end up with a fast but incredibly fragile gunline army where most of the codex is useless, they have absolutely trash infantry (mostly the Troops, which now have to be outside the vehicles to score, and the vehicles can't contest) and no answer at all to fliers. The other thing that is worth mentioning is that 6th has become much more rock/paper/scissors than 5th, Dark Eldar still match up well against some lists - Nids for example (its just the Flyrants you have to be careful of) but just get blasted off the board by the majority of armies - Eldar will demolish you, Tau will demolish you, Guard still demolish you etc. To me its the complete lack of durability that cripples the army the most and keeps it in the group of bottom tier armies, I've repeatedly seen lists which you would expect Dark Eldar to be able to deal with win easily simply because they get the first turn or seize, and that is not the hallmark of a competitive army. For example on paper you would expect Dark Eldar to do ok against Daemons (lots of infantry, some MCs or tanks) but I've never seen them deal with the 20-40 Flesh Hounds + Screamers + flying MCs that get pushed into you turn 1.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
I'm interested in what seems to be an oxymoronic theme - shooting got better, but I see a lot of disparaging of Dark Eldar.

It's just the usual Stelek style DE fear mongering (the sky is falling!). Most of the naysayers don't even play the army. Some things never change.

Ask any half decent Dark Eldar player and they'll tell you we came out stronger than last edition. Our shooting got better and we can now twinlink two of our units a turn with an allied farseer (guide & prescience). I would attribute most of the negativity about dark eldar (aside form the usual DE hate) down to wyches being a bit harder to use (they need to charge out of or through cover to protect themselves from over watch). Fleet, and the PGL (defensive grenades give steath from shooting within 8" now) make them quite apt at doing this. That being said they never were an amazing assault unit in 5th, more of tar pit unit. So I'm not too sure where the moaning is coming from, especially now that they are fantastic AT. MSU haywire wyches in venoms is stronger than ever.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Their flickerfields are all but redundant with jink

Jink hasn't made the flicker field redundant. You don't get jink saves unless you move, so first turn you won't get a jink save, making venoms ideal for screening ravagers/raiders this edition. There's also a reasonable amount of cover ignoring weapons so it's far from redundant.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
transports in general (which DE have a large reliance on) have been nerfed with HPs, and the venom is now laughably easy to put down with only 2 to call it's own.

Our transports are actually tougher as glances no longer roll on the damage table. So there is no chance of a glancing hit making you explode, and they only wreck you if you're out of hull points, even then it's a "soft wreck". In 5th our transports could die to a single glance, they would most definitely die to three glances (because of open topped adding +1), so the hull point system has made them more survivable not less. Not to mention all our vehicles now get a free "jink" save so we don't need to splash out on flicker fields any more.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Firing out of transports is now significantly worse, removing much of DE's 5th ed mobility,

It exactly the same as 5th. Except now rapid fire units can move and shoot 24", this is absolutely huge for us. Warriors in venoms, raiders or on foot have both become so much more potent.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
you can no longer contest with vehicles or score from them, removing their utility in objective missions.

True. But it's absurd to say this removes the utility of vehicles in objective missions. We can now flat out after embarking meaning we have MASSIVE mobility to units that are even outside their transports.

Warriors in area terrain with an empty raider near by are deceptively mobile. They can redeploy to an objective that is between 49-59" away in two turns (T4: 2d6 pick the highest + 2" embark range + 12" raider move + 18" flat out + T5: 6" raider move + 6" disembark + 1d6 re-rollable fleet run + 3" objective capture range). Perfect for capturing objectives in the late game (that doesn't even take into account the length of the raider!).

Combine this with going to ground in area terrain giving +2 to cover saves and our troops have become a lot more survivable outside of transports than they were.

Welcome back dashofpepper 40k tactics suddenly got worth reading again.

There was only a 'pseudo' easy win window for DE in 5th with the new codex. Suddenly venom spam became all that and more. Before the new codex arrived DE were regarded as second tier. It seems if an army takes a little thought and tactical expertise to field it is second tier, lol. In the old codex there were a number of quite powerful synergies and builds. You just had to work at finding them.

So along came 6th. You know early in 6th wraithwall and beast pack lists did quite well competitively. The first few times I played beast pack lists I simply failed by not understanding the nuances of the pack. Then I caught on and started winning regularly ( with a little coaching help from Sean). Allied lists with DE/Eldar were always in the mix and more often then not spoilers. Now suddenly Eldar and Tau get new codexes and DE are no longer viable? Here is the crux of it ... if you are playing a DE army you need to be aware of three criteria ...

1) Target priority ... we are not a forgiving army. Focus your firepower on units that are not immediate threats and you will lose.

2) Positioning is the second part of the equation. You had best realize early on how to get your forces in a position where they do the most damage while mitigating the return damage. Seems self-evident but this where I see a lot of players fail at mastering DE.

3) Deployment can break or make your game. Not reserving or reserving ... leaving key units open to alpha strikes but not maintaining distances (remeber we can pre measure now), misunderstanding when BLOS is needed instead of relying on cover saves ( so many ignore cover weapons out there), etc., etc.

Saying that an army is complex and difficult to play is not the same as saying the army is not competitive. It certainly can be. I've played a round of games recently with DE and documented them here ...

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960-tactics-batreps-riptides-reavers-vypers-and-wks-and-randomness-aug-9th

These are not even optimized lists. Mush has played a whole lot of games with his black buzzards

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t3946-the-black-buzzards-battle-reports-links

 felixcat wrote:
Saying that an army is complex and difficult to play is not the same as saying the army is not competitive. It certainly can be. I've played a round of games recently with DE and documented them here ...

Saying how competitive an army is based solely on its own devices is just as flawed however. In early 6th DE held on because while they got no better they didn't get much worse and were already on a solid standing, however the meta has changed a lot in the last year. All of the new armies have gotten tools that just make DE cry; the reason they worked in early 6th is because these things weren't around for them to deal with. CSM, DA, Tau, and Eldar all put out such an immense torrent of firepower potentially and with enough ways to ignore cover that DE just can't survive across the table from them.

So you choose to ignore any eveidence suggesting that we can and have beaten Necrons, Tau, CSM, Daemons? Mush beat a tri-drake list. I won a tournament with some of those armies. Sean has beaten a few of those armies to say the least.

 Mushkilla wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:
I'm interested in what seems to be an oxymoronic theme - shooting got better, but I see a lot of disparaging of Dark Eldar.

Jink hasn't made the flicker field redundant. You don't get jink saves unless you move, so first turn you won't get a jink save, making venoms ideal for screening ravagers/raiders this edition. There's also a reasonable amount of cover ignoring weapons so it's far from redundant.

Still not nearly as useful as it was, as it is common with plenty of other armies (like mechdar, packing far more resilient and deadly transports)

Our transports are actually tougher as glances no longer roll on the damage table. So there is no chance of a glancing hit making you explode, and they only wreck you if you're out of hull points, even then it's a "soft wreck". In 5th our transports could die to a single glance, they would most definitely die to three glances (because of open topped adding +1), so the hull point system has made them more survivable not less. Not to mention all our vehicles now get a free "jink" save so we don't need to splash out on flicker fields any more.

By no means did venoms get tougher. The mathammer against non AP 2 weapons kills them about the same. What weakened them is that every other transport skimmer became HP 3, so it is relatively weaker. If got weaker by comparison with other mech armies (like the now far-superior mechdar.)

True. But it's absurd to say this removes the utility of vehicles in objective missions. We can now flat out after embarking meaning we have MASSIVE mobility to units that are even outside their transports.

It removed the last turn objective grab, which was an important tactic.

Warriors in area terrain with an empty raider near by are deceptively mobile. They can redeploy to an objective that is between 49-59" away in two turns (T4: 2d6 pick the highest + 2" embark range + 12" raider move + 18" flat out + T5: 6" raider move + 6" disembark + 1d6 re-rollable fleet run + 3" objective capture range). Perfect for capturing objectives in the late game (that doesn't even take into account the length of the raider!).

A distance like that is largely redundant, as, unless your squad is camping backfield, few objectives will be that far away. A regular marine squad in a Rhino can go 36' under the same circumstances, having the same tactical utility.

More, in fact, as the circumstances you offered have you parking in front of enemy guns for a turn. 4+ jink save or not, a 2 HP AV 10 skimmer and it's 5 men will drop like flies, while marines take a concerted effort to put down.

Combine this with going to ground in area terrain giving +2 to cover saves and our troops have become a lot more survivable outside of transports than they were.

This depends on you going to ground, and you will have a greater need to do it with the new codexes putting out volume of fire enough to evaporate DE infantry.



The root of the problem with DE is an inability to cope with the meta. No skyfire whatsoever except in mediocre fliers in a vital slot means that airforces trash their skimmers quite easily.

Tau gunlines are very strong against them, putting out large volumes of str 5+ ignores cover weaponry. Necron flier spam speaks for itself, and, most damningly, mechdar exists.
The wave serpent is just so much better than the DE skimmers, battle focus is incredible, and bladestorm is borderline broken.

DE can still be good, but they just don't cut it in the competitive scene IMO.

 felixcat wrote:

So you choose to ignore any eveidence suggesting that we can and have beaten Necrons, Tau, CSM, Daemons? Mush beat a tri-drake list. I won a tournament with some of those armies. Sean has beaten a few of those armies to say the least.

I know two people who have won on the lottery the one and only time they played it. Does that mean that winning it is likely?

BTW I read your reports that you posted above, and they all include a large contingent of Eldar allies. That doesn't say much about DE being a top army. With allies such they can excel with the best of them, but so can anybody with the right allies. It seems from the reports that the Eldar contingent pulled a good few of those games for you also.

My point overall is I'm talking about DE alone here as an army, and that anecdotal evidence isn't worth much. They aren't a bad army, but certainly not top, and it will take more than saying you won a tournament and some others guy won some games to convince me (and I'd imagine most other people) otherwise.

@ ImotekhTheStormlord
@ Godless-Mimicry

If you don't mind me asking. What Dark Eldar lists do you guys currently use in 6th?

I find that DE and Eldar make an extremely powerful combo.

They really do benefit each other and help to shore up weaknesses. I perfer them over Eldar/Tau personally.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I find that DE and Eldar make an extremely powerful combo.

They really do benefit each other and help to shore up weaknesses. I perfer them over Eldar/Tau personally.

Deldar really is very strong, though I have to ask why you prefer it over Taudar.

I'm having fun expertimenting with Dorks

Dark eldar with an ork allied contingent can be a nasty surprise, especially when the orks roll the transports leaving the passengers open to a good venoming...

Possibly not tournament topping, though i've won a few locally with the combo, but it does interact fairly well. You do have to be wary of the desperate allies trust issues roll bollixing your plans though.

BTW I read your reports that you posted above, and they all include a large contingent of Eldar allies. That doesn't say much about DE being a top army. With allies such they can excel with the best of them, but so can anybody with the right allies. It seems from the reports that the Eldar contingent pulled a good few of those games for you also.

Undeniably Eldar makes DE better but DE make Eldar better too. If you look at lists lists that are winning allies generally play a prominent role. That is the nature of 6th edition. Do I believe that DE is a standalone army capable of consistent wins at the highest levels ... no. But NEcs are better with CSM, Tau is better with Eldar, Gk is better with ... well you get my drift. The point is we don't have to stick our DE on the shelf.

DE have problems. Venom spam with Ravagers isn't nearly as good as before. It will outright obliterate some armies but it has very hard counters, such as Necron scythe spam. The Crons will get the alphastrike and pack enough weaponry to essentially destroy almost all the DE Venoms in a turn. Certain Tau builds will have a ton of success too, the Commander+Broadside unit is murder on DE Skimmers (I know their range is limited but with Ethereals and Markers abound they can actually move up to 12" and fire, basically imitating battle focus).

I think Eldar are NECESSARY for DE, whereas Eldar can do very well without any allies. I would probably prefer DE as an allied contingent, but if I took DE I would definitely take the Baron, a few Venoms/Ravagers, Beastpack and then a heavy dose of Eldar.

DE do really well in a forge world meta without the need to take their own fw units.

Sabers scare off cron air, and die just like regular guardsmen to venom spam.

With or without FW the current meta has a lot of high T targets.

Hit up Hulksmash for tips.
Eldar are your friend, invest in some if DE is what you will play.
I still think Heam/wrack rush w/ pack of beast and pack of hellions can work.
How is the back?

Dash, since you play Orks I'll give you a quick rundown of how 6th Ed Orks (which are still amazing, I've lost 1 out of 50 games in 6th using no ally Orks).

Shooting casualties are removed from the front so no more leading with a Nob or KFF Mek, stick them near the back. Also rushing ahead is dangerous since you can make negative progress across the board as you move your boyz closer to the enemies rapid-fire range.

Challenges can really screw over our Boyz Nobz with them only getting a at-best 4+ armor save. There are ways to protect them from being singled out by leaving them in the way back.

Bikes grant T5 as before but now count as 5 for ID. Which means only Str. 10 ID's (and force weapons and other special rules) our Bikes! Our BikerBoss is T6! Which is good because:

Kan Wall is beyond dead, even for an Ork. It's more a half-remembered myth at this point. Maybe KFF will grant Inv saves in the next codex. . .

But all models in any Artilley Unit are T7!!! Lobbas, Zzap Guns, and Kannons in terrain are ridiculously resilient for cheap!

So IMHO, the best units from before are still the best:

Lootas can Snapfire at BS1 like everyone else but it's "hurts" the Orks less than everyone on the theory that you pay higher ppm for a higher BS!

Shoota Boyz held in reserve. Walk them on and Dakka to death anything in our DZ including MC. Then Overwatch them if they charge.

BikerNobz with BikerBoss. FNP reduction was a slight hit but now can be used on Str 8 and 9 shots. Laugh at Misslies and LAscannons!

Oh, and our Trukk Ramshackle rules still supercede the BRB which is a bonus.

Anywho, glad to see you're back. There's still plenty of die hard Orks out here playing every week looking forward, but not waiting, for the next codex.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Deldar really is very strong, though I have to ask why you prefer it over Taudar.

I could give you a variety of different reasons.

At the end of the day, it comes down to this. Dark eldar models are far more awesome. Tau models look 'Robotech' and out of place in the grim universe of 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 felixcat wrote:
Undeniably Eldar makes DE better but DE make Eldar better too.

All I will say is this .. the baron makes a seer council MUCH better. Hit and run and a 2++ rerollable FTW

 LValx wrote:
Venom spam with Ravagers isn't nearly as good as before.

The thing is DE can make a lot more viable lists than venom spam in 6th. Also I really fail to see how all the buffs to DE shooting, the addition of pre-measuring and the shift to infantry heavy lists has made venom spam less effective than it was in 5th?

 Mushkilla wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Venom spam with Ravagers isn't nearly as good as before.

The thing is DE can make a lot more viable lists than venom spam in 6th. Also I really fail to see how all the buffs to DE shooting, the addition of pre-measuring and the shift to infantry heavy lists has made venom spam less effective than it was in 5th?

I'm genuinely curious, though I don't play DE too much anymore, as to what you consider the most viable DE list.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I'd concur with the above. I'd argue that Tyranids might be Tier 2 (I will note however that this is with a very limited list that is very predictable). Daemons are hard to rank because of their randomness and being a rather unpopular army.

Maybe in your area but Daemons seem to be all the rage around New England.

I avoid certain FLGS because over 50% of the armies are Daemons.