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To use your own term - you can't be serious. Though I do agree 8 points is far too cheap, they are nowhere near as good as Grey Hunters. Neither Stealth nor FNP are comparable to a 3+ save with all the cover-ignoring options appearing, and T3 compared to T4 is a big drop.
Offensively, they don't get to reroll all 1's in a single phase for a mere 10 points. That's a big part of what makes Grey Hunters so broken.

Offensively AND defensively - they don't get to let rip with rapid-fire weapons and still get an extra Attack when charged. Grey Hunters get the best of both worlds in that respect.

You're just listing the GH's advantages and ignoring the Mandrakes advantages. That is not effective analysis.

How are they good in assault? 15 points gets you 2 WS4 Str4 attacks at init 4.

They are initiative 5, and should have S4 AP4 Assault 2 weapons that they soften there target with before getting into assault. This makes all the difference in the world.

So against anything the Mandrakes evaporate a lot faster! On a per-point basis they just evaporate faster than grey hunters.
Stealth, inflitrate, move through cover? A str 4 and 2 attacks (but no extra CCW?) Mandrakes just fall short in every capacity.
If they were 8 points each, they would still have lower RPP values than a grey hunter, and their DPP values would be equal to guardians vs GEQ (80) and on par with grey hunters vs MEQ and TEQ.

First of all, Infiltrate/Outflank/MtC are worth points and are ignored in your analysis, besides your brief mention here. The deployment phase and the movement phase are the most crucial two aspects of the game at the highest level.

Second, your RPP values are incredibly misleading, as you don't even include cover ignoring AP 3 or better weapons, which, in case you haven't noticed, are quite relevant in the current meta. Or Go to Ground? Last time I checked, that's a pretty important mechanic as well, and favors the Mandrakes here.

Also, your DPP values ignore Initiave, pinning, AP 4, shooting and assaulting, basically all the advantages Mandrakes have over Grey Hunters.

Again, if you actually objectively analyze the two units with all their abilities in mind, they compare quite favorably. If you cherry pick only the data that favors the Grey Hunters, you will end up with a flawed analysis that favors the Grey Hunters, or, confirmation bias.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
First of all, Infiltrate/Outflank/MtC are worth points and are ignored in your analysis, besides your brief mention here. The deployment phase and the movement phase are the most crucial two aspects of the game at the highest level.

Mandrakes can't take a hemi with them and inflitrate. Without a FNP token they have incredibly bad DPP values. Their offense is, at best, the same as a assault marine squad. We all know how assault marines stand up to wraiths and daemons....

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Second, your RPP values are incredibly misleading, as you don't even include cover ignoring AP 3 or better weapons, which, in case you haven't noticed, are quite relevant in the current meta. Or Go to Ground? Last time I checked, that's a pretty important mechanic as well, and favors the Mandrakes here.

AP3 ignore cover weapons are coming less common. When was the last time you went to a big event? Helldrakes are losing popularity as Tau markerlights make it easy to blow them out of the sky. I tell you what, I'll count the number of helldrakes I see at the NOVA invitational. If there are more than 5, Ill buy you a beer.
The RPP values I gave the mandrakes included the hemi giving FNP as well. If you remove that aspect they are just horribad.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Also, your DPP values ignore Initiave, pinning, AP 4, shooting and assaulting, basically all the advantages Mandrakes have over Grey Hunters.

Actually I just took their shooting into account. A STR 4, 2 attack, I5 model would be decent if they had power weapons. They way they are they are just bad. Pair them up with a daemonette! They fall flat in comparison and the daemonette is only 9 points.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Again, if you actually objectively analyze the two units with all their abilities in mind, they compare quite favorably. If you cherry pick only the data that favors the Grey Hunters, you will end up with a flawed analysis that favors the Grey Hunters, or, confirmation bias.

Inflitrate they cannot use does not count as a real benefit. Outflanking would be good if they could actually threaten something when they came on the board. The only other ability of measure they have is stealth. And its just not worth the 15 points.

I'm not saying mandrakes are complete garbage. They do have their uses. They can be used for linebreaker. They can threaten some back field units like.....a thunderfire cannon or 19 grots.
I am saying they are completely overpriced for what they deliver. 80 points for that kind of a tool is something I would see as worthwhile. At 150 points for 10 of them, plus another 10 for the leader is just ... well ... overpriced. The proof is in the pudding. You can defend them all you like, but you don't see them in lists for a reason.

Look. VacuumHammer is a way of LIFE here. No one is going to even TELL you what weight they give anything, let alone actually admit they even do.

Here's the bottom line: They put out a good amount of fire, they are very decent at assault, albeit not the worlds best and the COMBINED effect of both shooting and assaulting is not poor at all. Their value is in their ability to deploy and this value has NEVER been accorded enough respect on forums. No one even KNOWS how to quantify that element and those who use mobility as a hammer like I do can't even tell you EXACTLY what its worth because tis situational.

But heres the best part: Those situations in which such a trait would be useful is MOST GAMES. So if you know how to use them or want to learn, you'll benefit from whats being said. Those who are too smart to learn anything new will reject reject reject. And thats fine.

Teach the STUDENTS. Thats all you can do.

Mandrakes can't take a hemi with them and inflitrate. Without a FNP token they have incredibly bad DPP values. Their offense is, at best, the same as a assault marine squad. We all know how assault marines stand up to wraiths and daemons....

1.) You are aware you can attach HQ's to units after deployment right? No?

2.) In regards to ASM, completely false. A pistol shot+maybe HoW+3 S 4 I 4 attacks on the charge is not as good as Assault 2 S4 AP4 Pinning + 3 S4 (or5) I5 attacks. Just horrible analysis if you think so.

AP3 ignore cover weapons are coming less common. When was the last time you went to a big event? Helldrakes are losing popularity as Tau markerlights make it easy to blow them out of the sky. I tell you what, I'll count the number of helldrakes I see at the NOVA invitational. If there are more than 5, Ill buy you a beer.
The RPP values I gave the mandrakes included the hemi giving FNP as well. If you remove that aspect they are just horribad.

There are more AP 3 ignore cover mechanics in the game then just the Helldrake.

Your RPP values ignored critical weapon profiles and realistic scenarios, like going to ground, rendering them effectively worthless.

Actually I just took their shooting into account. A STR 4, 2 attack, I5 model would be decent if they had power weapons. They way they are they are just bad. Pair them up with a daemonette! They fall flat in comparison and the daemonette is only 9 points.

Again, there are a long list of things that Mandrakes can do that a Daemonette can't. There is much more to this game then dealing damage and surviving damage.

Inflitrate they cannot use does not count as a real benefit. Outflanking would be good if they could actually threaten something when they came on the board. The only other ability of measure they have is stealth. And its just not worth the 15 points.

What do you mean they can't use it? And Outflank works splendidly when you get them into cover and get them a PT the turn they come on, which isn't very difficult to pull off. They also have move through cover.


Again, you are just pretending that their most important rules aren't important at all and offering up a flawed analysis that ignores those rules.


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The proof is in the pudding. You can defend them all you like, but you don't see them in lists for a reason.

Meaningless comment. DE are barely represented at all, and most Infiltrate/Outflank units are under rater because most people don't know how to use them effectively.

ShadarLogoth, you are not going to be able to convince me that Mandrakes are a cost-effectie unit. Nor will I be able to explain how they are extremely overcosted. I think at this point its best for us to drop the discussion and let the readers decide what they think of the unit.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Again, there are a long list of things that Mandrakes can do that a Daemonette can't. There is much more to this game then dealing damage and surviving damage.....most Infiltrate/Outflank units are under rater because most people don't know how to use them effectively.

Could you elaborate on this? The only value I can see from this is linebreaker, or threatening a weak backfield objective camper like 10 cultists.

 Jancoran wrote:
8 points would be silly.

not as silly as 15
I think 10 is about right.

Or keep them at 15 and give them a special character that lets them either assault the same turn they arrive or gives them a pain token.

 Icculus wrote:
Or keep them at 15 and give them a special character that lets them either assault the same turn they arrive or gives them a pain token.

I dont want units in my codex that NEED a special character to be good. Often you just take the special character and forget about the unit. case in point the Baron makes hellions almost playable, but most people just take the baron with beasts instead.

If it were up to me, I would make mandrakes an ultimate counter to psykers. give them rending,grenades and PE psykers and they start to be worth 15 points

At the rate at which Eldar can kill my marines, 8 point assault marines are sounding better and better. /silly

 Exergy wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
Or keep them at 15 and give them a special character that lets them either assault the same turn they arrive or gives them a pain token.

I dont want units in my codex that NEED a special character to be good. Often you just take the special character and forget about the unit. case in point the Baron makes hellions almost playable, but most people just take the baron with beasts instead.

If it were up to me, I would make mandrakes an ultimate counter to psykers. give them rending,grenades and PE psykers and they start to be worth 15 points

Actually that would be pretty cool to have PE psykers. makes them a good counter to GK all of a sudden.
But as for a special character I was thinking adding something like the Ork's stormboy special character. He is not an HQ, just a unique addition to the mandrake squad. There is that mandrake HQ, but he is pretty worthless and doesn't add anything to a mandrake squad.

The Mandrake special character is...an oddity for sure. His function is limited. It isn't that he's not useful. For example, certain times, the enemy will have a character that runs on its own quite often and those are good targets for him. However, he's not the "killer" you'd want that hunter to be. Castellan Crowe is EXCELLENT because he's a torpedo that can sink any boat, dead or alive. The Dark Eldar character is more limited. Points reflect that but still... The force org slot might be the bigger issue than the actual cost for the Mandrake character.

 Exergy wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
Or keep them at 15 and give them a special character that lets them either assault the same turn they arrive or gives them a pain token.

I dont want units in my codex that NEED a special character to be good. Often you just take the special character and forget about the unit. case in point the Baron makes hellions almost playable, but most people just take the baron with beasts instead.

If it were up to me, I would make mandrakes an ultimate counter to psykers. give them rending,grenades and PE psykers and they start to be worth 15 points

I like that idea a lot. A nice specalist unit that can fill a specific role.

I like that idea a lot. A nice specalist unit that can fill a specific role.

/sigh

But they already are that. They are they only unit in the Codex that can Infiltrate/Outflank. It just amazes me how undervalued you perceive that to be.

As you alluded before, yes, Linebreaker and backfield objectives are their nominal goal, you know, the things that directly result in victory points and winning games. It completely baffles me you don't seem to think that is a good enough role...directly contributing to winning games...weird.

And your weakly defended objective qualifier is nonsense. I've seen Mandrakes push much more serious units off an objective then just Cultists.

Anyway, you are right that we're not going to convince each other on the intertron. Continue to think stealing objectives and winning games is worthless. I'll continue employing these units...and winning games.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
But they already are that. They are they only unit in the Codex that can Infiltrate/Outflank. It just amazes me how undervalued you perceive that to be. .

Perhaps instead of being sarcastic and demeaning you can answer my question and explain why those traits are so valueable.
Not answering the question I asked and acting like that does not help your argument in front of all those 3rd parties reading this interaction.


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ShadarLogoth wrote:
Anyway, you are right that we're not going to convince each other on the intertron. Continue to think stealing objectives and winning games is worthless. I'll continue employing these units...and winning games.

Hey....do you live in the US on the east coast? I'm always down for a game if you are. If your going to be at NOVA I would love to play with you after hours. Perhaps you can show me how valuable mandrakes are.

I wasn't being sarcastic or demeaning. It honestly amazes me the flawed perception people have of Infilitrate/Outflank. Deployment and movement are the most critical phases of the game, as most good generals will tell you. Mandrakes do quite well in both of these phases (Infiltrate/Outflank for the one, Fleet/MtC for the other).


Unfortunately, LM, I'm in Texas and will not be able to attend NOVA this year.

However I would love to get in a game sometime.

And to be clear, I'm not saying Mandrakes are amaz-a-balls. I just think they perform a rather unique (relative to their Codex) and important role. Not one you HAVE to build you strategy around, but one that can be very conducive to winning if you do.

The keys to getting the most out of them are A.) get them a PT the moment they get on the board, and B.) threaten either and objective, linebreaker, or vulnerable glass cannons (like Devs). Sitting on an opponents objective and pewpewing, then eating the dirt if any heat comes their way, is pretty effective. When you consider the 2+ cover they have when GtG, the 5++ for ignore cover mechanics, and FNP, they are actually pretty resilient against most forms of firepower relative to their point cost. That is why I took exception to your RPP calculations as they were simply unrealistic. Any general worth his salt is going to GtG with these guys the second they start taking heat. And, again, AP3/2 ignore cover weapons are definitely something that has to be taken into consideration.

No, generally Mandrakes are relatively benign in actual combat, but the do have other uses.

To newish players, these things look super scary, so they apparently tend to devote ludicrous amounts of firepower to them.

This may go the other way to, as the new ones may in some strange way underestimate them and then you may find use for them...although underestimating them may be a hard thing to do though...

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I wasn't being sarcastic or demeaning. It honestly amazes me the flawed perception people have of Infilitrate/Outflank. Deployment and movement are the most critical phases of the game, as most good generals will tell you. Mandrakes do quite well in both of these phases (Infiltrate/Outflank for the one, Fleet/MtC for the other).

Unfortunately, LM, I'm in Texas and will not be able to attend NOVA this year.

However I would love to get in a game sometime.

And to be clear, I'm not saying Mandrakes are amaz-a-balls. I just think they perform a rather unique (relative to their Codex) and important role. Not one you HAVE to build you strategy around, but one that can be very conducive to winning if you do.

The keys to getting the most out of them are A.) get them a PT the moment they get on the board, and B.) threaten either and objective, linebreaker, or vulnerable glass cannons (like Devs). Sitting on an opponents objective and pewpewing, then eating the dirt if any heat comes their way, is pretty effective. When you consider the 2+ cover they have when GtG, the 5++ for ignore cover mechanics, and FNP, they are actually pretty resilient against most forms of firepower relative to their point cost. That is why I took exception to your RPP calculations as they were simply unrealistic. Any general worth his salt is going to GtG with these guys the second they start taking heat. And, again, AP3/2 ignore cover weapons are definitely something that has to be taken into consideration.

I get down to Texas on a semi-regular basis for work. If your in the Houston or Plano area its possible to meet up.

I see your points with the Mandrakes. If they were troops they would be functional in that role, though I think they still need their damage output increased or cost lowered. These are the reasons why they cannot fill that role of inflitrators/outflankers well.
* Going to ground is never a good strategy unless you have a way to make them fearless to pop back up reliably. IG have an example of this. Ghaz causing all orks to pop up is another example. The only way mandrakes can do this is by adding a 3rd pain token -- something that has limited value.
* If your going to go to ground you have to have a darn good reason to do so, as it removed their effect for a turn. (save for snap shots) Going to ground because they are getting a little attention is going to be a waste of 180 points (150 for the mandrakes + 30 for the hemi)
* You can't start with a pain token and inflitrate. You need to move a hemi to join them on turn one, which means they need to be close to your deployment edge. Either way its a clunky way to give them shooting. Using hemis to give them pain tokens (as mentioned) increases the effective cost of the squad. At 18 points a pop they are very expensive for what they deliver.
* You cannot assault the turn you come in from reserves. This change has greatly reduced the value of outflanking assault units. (which mandrakes are) Trying to hedge a pain token to them on the the turn they outlfank is jumping through a lot of hoops to get a limited value.
* Since they are not scoring they can't be used to grab an empty objective. If they would scoring they would bring more value. As now they can only contest.
* They don't have the damage output the threaten many units. At best they will threaten 10 cultists or 19 grots.
* They can walk up within 3" of an objective and go to ground, but mandrakes are not scary enough in assault to be worthwhile. A single IC can sweep the enire squad.

How would I change the mandrakes?
* Make them scoring. This would allow for them to fill the role of objective campers/siezers.
* Let them assault on the turn they come in from outflanking.
* Increase their assault threat. They should be more scary than CSM with an extra CCW given their reflective costs. (or at least as scary). Mandrakes currently fold to equal sized CSM squads.
* Make them start with a STR 4 blast. For each pain token, increase the STR by 1. Yes, with 3 tokens they would have 20 STR 7 shots. Starting with that would cost 3 hemis, or a virtual total of 24 points per model. Compare the cost to CSM havocs with autocannons. Look at the mandrakes range. Not quite off the hook as it sounds at first. This makes this a inflitrating mid-board short range blasty unit.
* Lower their cost to something more reflective in the current ruleset and given their limited value. That's why I suggested 8 points. I also think wytches should be reduced to 6 points. Warriors are good at 9 points. I use warriors in my DE ally group for a reason.
* Ability to toggle fearless (so they could auto-pop from going to ground)
* Increased saves to 3++ That would increase their durability yet keep them lower in damage output.

In summary, i don't think they are without any use, I just think their uses do not properly reflect their costs. Costs are the balancing factor for units in this game.
In a similar way, C:SM dreads should be 65 points base and not 100. There is a reason you wont see units like mandrakes or BA/C:SM/DA/SW dreads at NOVA or at Feast of Blades. They are simply to expensive for their use.

The reason for that is partially the edition changes. Changes to rules like 'no assulting from outflanking' have dramatic effect on units (see Snikrot). Edition changes also make otherwise moderate units off the hook (see beast packs) Part of the reason is that GW developers have specific mindsets in mind and don't realize the game no longer funtions that way. 44 points for deathwing are to much. The PF on every deathwing is not worth that cost -- given that SW/CSM can have STR 6 power axes for 31/33 points each.
Are things changing? Well, we will find out next month when C:SM is released.

Uh.. I'm really trying here but;

In Apocalypse there is a trait that makes extra spots on the board "your board edge". It's not reserve or infiltrate so you can start them off with the Haemonculus kind of close.

Mandrakes wouldn't be so... so... CRAP -IF- they started with their ranged attack. I think I said maybe putting them with a Haemonculus in a Raider?

Could be worse, like Mutilators; inefficient AND doofy looking.

ShadarLogoth wrote:


The keys to getting the most out of them are A.) get them a PT the moment they get on the board, and B.) threaten either and objective, linebreaker, or vulnerable glass cannons (like Devs). Sitting on an opponents objective and pewpewing, then eating the dirt if any heat comes their way, is pretty effective. When you consider the 2+ cover they have when GtG, the 5++ for ignore cover mechanics, and FNP, they are actually pretty resilient against most forms of firepower relative to their point cost. That is why I took exception to your RPP calculations as they were simply unrealistic. Any general worth his salt is going to GtG with these guys the second they start taking heat. And, again, AP3/2 ignore cover weapons are definitely something that has to be taken into consideration.

You dont need to worry about AP2-3 ignore cover weapons, you need to worry about any ignore cover weapon as they have no regular armor save.
So that str4 ap5 flame weapon that just about everyone has access to is going to completely mess you up. You are infiltrating near the enemy, so they will be able to use it. assuming you are taking advantage of over, you will be bunched up and the flamer is going to kill half of your squad in one go.
Even if they dont flame you, they can assault you. Tactical marines can beat you down, much less anything else. IG squads of suffienct size will take you down too.

As for filling that objective denying, linebreaking role. DE dont have a problem getting regular troops into scoring, linebreaking, or denying position. The army is fast, and most generals would rather pay 22 points per reaver for a squad that also has a good cover save, can kill things easily and can rapidly redeply to anywhere on the map to deny or get line breaker. + they bring their own cover, so they can stay away from assault and flamers.


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 labmouse42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
Or keep them at 15 and give them a special character that lets them either assault the same turn they arrive or gives them a pain token.

I dont want units in my codex that NEED a special character to be good. Often you just take the special character and forget about the unit. case in point the Baron makes hellions almost playable, but most people just take the baron with beasts instead.
If it were up to me, I would make mandrakes an ultimate counter to psykers. give them rending,grenades and PE psykers and they start to be worth 15 points

I like that idea a lot. A nice specalist unit that can fill a specific role.

It always made sense to me. Someone has to keep the psykers out of Commogarth, so the DE would have some fluffy unit to seak out psykers and kill them. Mandrakes fluff has them being kind of outcasts that are partially in the warp permanently. Seems to me they could probably detect psykers easily and be trained to go after them. They wouldnt be the ultimate counter, but it would give them some tactical flexibility.

8 points in light of kroot is fine.

Arguably, kroot are better in hand to hand too because of their AP 5 weapons.

LM, your entire analysis effectively gives them 0 points for Fleet, MtC, Infiltrate/Outflank, Pinning, and AP 4. You consistently ignore the advantages they have and are trying to hamfist them into a unit they are not.

Also, you have rather restricted view of Go to Ground that does not match its effectiveness or the frequency the mechanic is employed at the highest levels.

You dont need to worry about AP2-3 ignore cover weapons, you need to worry about any ignore cover weapon as they have no regular armor save.
So that str4 ap5 flame weapon that just about everyone has access to is going to completely mess you up. You are infiltrating near the enemy, so they will be able to use it. assuming you are taking advantage of over, you will be bunched up and the flamer is going to kill half of your squad in one go.
Even if they dont flame you, they can assault you.

They have a 5++, and should have FNP before a template is ever in range. Basically, everything you wrote is completely false.

Tactical marines can beat you down, much less anything else.

Really? Even without a Paint Token this is false, with a single Paint Token it's completely false, and kind of embarrassing that you would even write that.

Arguably, kroot are better in hand to hand too because of their AP 5 weapons.

Arguably? Because AP 5 is better then 2A S4, I5, 5++, FNP, Fleet, not too mention the capability of getting FC and Fearless? I would love to have that argument with anyone.





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Alright LM, I was trying to be brief but I have to address some of these points directly:

* Going to ground is never a good strategy unless you have a way to make them fearless to pop back up reliably. IG have an example of this. Ghaz causing all orks to pop up is another example. The only way mandrakes can do this is by adding a 3rd pain token -- something that has limited value.
* If your going to go to ground you have to have a darn good reason to do so, as it removed their effect for a turn. (save for snap shots) Going to ground because they are getting a little attention is going to be a waste of 180 points (150 for the mandrakes + 30 for the hemi)
* You can't start with a pain token and inflitrate. You need to move a hemi to join them on turn one, which means they need to be close to your deployment edge. Either way its a clunky way to give them shooting. Using hemis to give them pain tokens (as mentioned) increases the effective cost of the squad. At 18 points a pop they are very expensive for what they deliver.

As I mentioned above, you seem to have a restricted view of GtG that I simply disagree with, and I think a lot of generals would as well. Go to Ground is extremely useful, and the drawbacks are basically negligible once you are taking 2 or more units worth of firepower, because you are effectively shutting down any unit that is shooting at you (or severely limiting, more so then you yourself are being limited). Also, assuming you have gotten them into position to contest, staying alive>>>>doing damage.

Getting the Haemi to them does present some unique challenges, I'll give you that. But with the speed of the DE vehicles is very possible to do so consistently, you just have to work out your contingencies ahead of time.

Since they are not scoring they can't be used to grab an empty objective. If they would scoring they would bring more value. As now they can only contest.

Really, contest is plenty. How many games have you seen an opponent win where they had to give up on an objective in their own DZ?

They don't have the damage output the threaten many units. At best they will threaten 10 cultists or 19 grots.

Again, this is simply not true. With a single PT the Mandrakes will kill on average 4 to 5 Space Marines on the charge, before suffering a single casualty. Nercon Warriors/Fire Warriors/Eldar? That number jumps substantially. People are severely underrating their combat potential.

Well I've had a squad of mandrakes take out a squad of paladins before, so im pretty sure they can take on a tactical squad.

Due to their high I and ++ they actually fair well against most TEq. Of course, don't tell that to the people who don't even think they can kill cultists...

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Really? Even without a Paint Token this is false, with a single Paint Token it's completely false, and kind of embarrassing that you would even write that.

I've ran the numbers, including a PT and the mandrakes being in ruins. If the marines charge, they will kill all the mandrakes and have 2-3 marines left.
If the mandrakes charge they will kill all the marines and still have 6 mandrakes left. This is because killing 2.22 with the bale blast on the way in helps greatly in softening up the TAC marines.
What happens if they try the same thing against grey hunters? Lets just say things don't turn out so well for the mandrakes. Counter-charge + wolf standard + double the marine attacks mean the mandrakes lose 4.42 on the first round and the GH lose 4. It goes downhill from there quickly.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
As I mentioned above, you seem to have a restricted view of GtG that I simply disagree with, and I think a lot of generals would as well. Go to Ground is extremely useful, and the drawbacks are basically negligible once you are taking 2 or more units worth of firepower, because you are effectively shutting down any unit that is shooting at you (or severely limiting, more so then you yourself are being limited). Also, assuming you have gotten them into position to contest, staying alive>>>>doing damage.

Read what I read again. Going to ground is not a strategy. It can be a good tactic, but its not something you should say "I'm going to go to the game this weekend and go to ground the entire time!" The only exception to this would be campers like cultists or plauge bearers.
If you infiltrate on an objective and go to ground on it, you will just be swept off. It's not like armies in the tourney today have a difficult time ignoring cover. In my tourney list I've got 4 wave serpents. How many serpents does it take to kill 10 mandrakes that went to ground on an objective? About 2. What happens if you go to ground in front of 10 TAC marines? They just assault you and wipe you off. Mandrakes are nasty when they get the assault, not the other way around.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Really, contest is plenty. How many games have you seen an opponent win where they had to give up on an objective in their own DZ? Again, this is simply not true. With a single PT the Mandrakes will kill on average 4 to 5 Space Marines on the charge, before suffering a single casualty. Nercon Warriors/Fire Warriors/Eldar? That number jumps substantially. People are severely underrating their combat potential.

20 STR 4 AP4 blasts are not that nasty to most targets. Don't get me wrong, my dire avengers are quaking in their fashonable boots, but marine armies just don't care. Killing 30 points of marines a turn just is not that scary. Sure the mandrakes can rush out and over the course of a few turns kill all the marines. And then they will get shot in the face by the rest of the army.

You have a point about the Fleet, MtC, and Inflitrate/Outflank. Ill adjust my suggestion up to 9 points, or change them to start with bale blast and have it grow in strength and they get more pain tokens.

PS - Good discussion. You have made me think a lot more about mandrakes. I'm going to make my next Simhammer segment on them.

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flaming tadpole wrote:
Well I've had a squad of mandrakes take out a squad of paladins before, so im pretty sure they can take on a tactical squad.

I've had a grot kill a terminator in assault once. I've had an eldar dire avengers kill an attack bike in assault. You can't say "because I've seen it once, its something I can plan on". When mathhammering out how units work, we should use averages.

After all, do you go to Vegas and say "Well, I've hit on 17 before and got a 21, so that's a good strategy"

ShadarLogoth wrote:


Really? Even without a Paint Token this is false, with a single Paint Token it's completely false, and kind of embarrassing that you would even write that.

Third best Typo ever!

I a lot of respect for your math labmouse42. You also have in the past shown great strategic insights with certain DE units (beast pack as an example). But theory hammer does not tell the whole story. I agree that Mandrakes are pricy for what they bring. But there is nothing else in the codex that has their particular utility. I have played units on many occasions that others feel do not belong in a competitive list and they have worked well. On some occasions I have found that the consensus was accurate, lol, and stopped using certain units. It is matter of perspective and how you run your lists ... I don't play a typical DE list so mandrakes can add to what I field. No one should question your math. But quantifying mandrakes utility is more than just math. That said I would like to see some Simhammer.

 felixcat wrote:

I a lot of respect for your math labmouse42. You also have in the past shown great strategic insights with certain DE units (beast pack as an example). But theory hammer does not tell the whole story. I agree that Mandrakes are pricy for what they bring. But there is nothing else in the codex that has their particular utility. I have played units on many occasions that others feel do not belong in a competitive list and they have worked well. On some occasions I have found that the consensus was accurate, lol, and stopped using certain units. It is matter of perspective and how you run your lists ... I don't play a typical DE list so mandrakes can add to what I field. No one should question your math. But quantifying mandrakes utility is more than just math. That said I would like to see some Simhammer.

Thanks. That's good food for thought.

I've been doing a 10 minute segment on the 11th company podcast for the past 5 weeks on Simhammer. Some of the things covered have been "The Rule of Resilience", "The Ablative Effect", "Rending and You", etc. I try and keep 2 extra recordings already done in case I get sick or miss a week. As such the segment "Malady of Mandrakes" will not air for about ~3 weeks if I record it tonight.

Go to itunes and check out the 11th company podcast. Its good stuff.

 labmouse42 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Really? Even without a Paint Token this is false, with a single Paint Token it's completely false, and kind of embarrassing that you would even write that.

I've ran the numbers, including a PT and the mandrakes being in ruins. If the marines charge, they will kill all the mandrakes and have 2-3 marines left.
If the mandrakes charge they will kill all the marines and still have 6 mandrakes left. This is because killing 2.22 with the bale blast on the way in helps greatly in softening up the TAC marines.

and if there is a flamer in the tac squad it goes further down hill

ShadarLogoth wrote:

You dont need to worry about AP2-3 ignore cover weapons, you need to worry about any ignore cover weapon as they have no regular armor save.
So that str4 ap5 flame weapon that just about everyone has access to is going to completely mess you up. You are infiltrating near the enemy, so they will be able to use it. assuming you are taking advantage of over, you will be bunched up and the flamer is going to kill half of your squad in one go.
Even if they dont flame you, they can assault you.

They have a 5++, and should have FNP before a template is ever in range. Basically, everything you wrote is completely false.

What do Mandrakes have in their arsenal that prevents units that are close to them from assaulting them?

If they are infiltrating, how are they supposed to get this pain token before anything is in range? It doesnt seem like you can take good advantage of infiltrate(which you are saying is the main reason to take him) if they have to be close to your deployment zone to get a pain token.

10 tactical marines with a flamer, assuming the flamer gets 5 mandrakes, will kill 2 mandrakes if you have a pain token and went to ground. I suppose I assumed more, but you are 1 including a pain token, which requires a 50 point HQ choice and 2 requires you to be in ruins(not all cover is ruins) and 3 requires you to go to ground anyway.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Tactical marines can beat you down, much less anything else.

Really? Even without a Paint Token this is false, with a single Paint Token it's completely false, and kind of embarrassing that you would even write that.

Without a pain token 10 tac marines charge, kill one on the way in(assuming melta or plasma or no special weapon). No pain token, no overwatch. Mandrakes strike first. Mandrakes kill 1.5 marines. Nearly 4 mandrakes die. Mandrakes test on ld~5. IF they survive it will be a slow grind, but the mandrakes will lose.

I've ran the numbers, including a PT and the mandrakes being in ruins. If the marines charge, they will kill all the mandrakes and have 2-3 marines left.

I suggest you re-run those numbers, because you seem to be leaving something out. Even if the Tacs get the charge, the Mandrakes win, although not by much. After Overwatch+CC kills ~2 Marines who kill ~2 Mandrakes in return. After the first round they basically slowly attrition each other day, but the more attacks and the higher Initiative win the day for the Drakes.

If the mandrakes charge they will kill all the marines and still have 6 mandrakes left. This is because killing 2.22 with the bale blast on the way in helps greatly in softening up the TAC marines.

Well yeah. That's why them having the PT is so critical.

What happens if they try the same thing against grey hunters? Lets just say things don't turn out so well for the mandrakes. Counter-charge + wolf standard + double the marine attacks mean the mandrakes lose 4.42 on the first round and the GH lose 4. It goes downhill from there quickly.

Sure, IF they haven't used their once per game yet, and IF they pass counter attack, which has a 30% chance of failure...But Exergy said Tacs, not Grey Hunters.

Read what I read again. Going to ground is not a strategy. It can be a good tactic, but its not something you should say "I'm going to go to the game this weekend and go to ground the entire time!" The only exception to this would be campers like cultists or plauge bearers.

Then I'm not communicating effectively, because it certainly is a strategy. "I'm going to use Infiltrate/Outlflank to push something off an objective and then GtG any heavy incoming fire."

If you infiltrate on an objective and go to ground on it, you will just be swept off. It's not like armies in the tourney today have a difficult time ignoring cover. In my tourney list I've got 4 wave serpents. How many serpents does it take to kill 10 mandrakes that went to ground on an objective? About 2.

So you are going to dedicate a minimum of two Wave Serpents (~300 points) to kill 150 points worth of Mandrakes, and probably have to dedicate even more fire power because more often then not 2 won't be enough? Opportunity costs? Is that REALLY what you want your Wave Serpents shooting at?

What happens if you go to ground in front of 10 TAC marines? They just assault you and wipe you off. Mandrakes are nasty when they get the assault, not the other way around.

They are certainly better on the charge, as are every single other CC unit in the game, however your Tactical math was off. If the Tacs really charged the Mandrakes, they would die.

20 STR 4 AP4 blasts are not that nasty to most targets. Don't get me wrong, my dire avengers are quaking in their fashonable boots, but marine armies just don't care. Killing 30 points of marines a turn just is not that scary. Sure the mandrakes can rush out and over the course of a few turns kill all the marines. And then they will get shot in the face by the rest of the army.

Why are you only picking Marine targets? Their isn't a single Marine book in the top tier. AP4 comes into play against most of the top tier armies right now. Also, pinning, it comes into play too...

You have a point about the Fleet, MtC, and Inflitrate/Outflank. Ill adjust my suggestion up to 9 points, or change them to start with bale blast and have it grow in strength and they get more pain tokens.

Well, I think those abilities are worth more the 1 point per model, but fair enough.

PS - Good discussion. You have made me think a lot more about mandrakes. I'm going to make my next Simhammer segment on them.

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and if there is a flamer in the tac squad it goes further down hill

A.) Please show me all the lists with flamers in Tac squads, B.) With competent placement the Flamer MIGHT kill one base, maybe, if your lucky.

What do Mandrakes have in their arsenal that prevents units that are close to them from assaulting them?

Okay, your notion that they can assault you wasn't false, just your notion that they would win if they did...

If they are infiltrating, how are they supposed to get this pain token before anything is in range? It doesnt seem like you can take good advantage of infiltrate(which you are saying is the main reason to take him) if they have to be close to your deployment zone to get a pain token.

A Haemi in a Venom or Raider can get 12" out of the deployment zone on turn one. If they are Outflanking, that gives the Venom/Raider two whole turns to get into position. That's how.

10 tactical marines with a flamer, assuming the flamer gets 5 mandrakes, will kill 2 mandrakes if you have a pain token and went to ground. I suppose I assumed more, but you are 1 including a pain token, which requires a 50 point HQ choice and 2 requires you to be in ruins(not all cover is ruins) and 3 requires you to go to ground anyway.

What? First, if you are assuming 5 Mandrakes with a template, you are use to playing with people who don't know how to setup their units. 4 would be the absolute ideal against a competent opponent. I honestly don't know what the rest of your babble is about. They have stealth, why do they need ruins? They can GtG in any area terrain in the game to get a 2+ cover.

Without a pain token 10 tac marines charge, kill one on the way in(assuming melta or plasma or no special weapon). No pain token, no overwatch. Mandrakes strike first. Mandrakes kill 1.5 marines. Nearly 4 mandrakes die. Mandrakes test on ld~5. IF they survive it will be a slow grind, but the mandrakes will lose.

Fair enough. IF the tactical marines who do not have Fleet or MtC get the charge on the Mandrakes (who do have Fleet and MtC) before they have a Paint Token they will win. IF you are pulling this off in a real game, your opponent is doing it wrong.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I suggest you re-run those numbers, because you seem to be leaving something out. Even if the Tacs get the charge, the Mandrakes win, although not by much. After Overwatch+CC kills ~2 Marines who kill ~2 Mandrakes in return. After the first round they basically slowly attrition each other day, but the more attacks and the higher Initiative win the day for the Drakes.

The marines killed 1 mandrake with pistols on the way in, and lost .98 to overwatch. I typed out the entire combat in my original reply and then realized it was probably something noone wanted to read.
If you give the hemi an agonizer then the equation changes dramatically.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
So you are going to dedicate a minimum of two Wave Serpents (~300 points) to kill 150 points worth of Mandrakes, and probably have to dedicate even more fire power because more often then not 2 won't be enough? Opportunity costs? Is that REALLY what you want your Wave Serpents shooting at?

Well....yea....
It's not like the 310 points of wave serpents has to shoot at the mandrakes all game. Its one turn out of 5-7 they are focusing their firepower on. Take the wave serpent cost and divide it by 6. That's a better approximation of your opportunity cost to kill the mandrakes. As you mentioned, if I'm playing Eldar, they are significant threat to my MSU dire avengers and I'll want to address them quickly.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Why are you only picking Marine targets? Their isn't a single Marine book in the top tier. AP4 comes into play against most of the top tier armies right now. Also, pinning, it comes into play too...

Historically its been the standard in a lot of discussion. I agree in the world of 40k its not always the case today. We see a lot of daemon builds, a lot of tau builds, etc. Given that the C:SM book is around the corner, and it has a good chance to shake up the meta yet again, I expect that MEQ discussion will stay relevant.

I think one of the problems with mandrakes is that they suffer from a 'hybrid syndrome'. GW puts way to much stock into hybrid units and overprices them accordingly. Flash Gitz come to mind. Mandrakes are a hybrid unit, as they are for assaulting (not getting assaulted) and they are for shooting.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
. They have stealth, why do they need ruins? They can GtG in any area terrain in the game to get a 2+ cover.

You don't want to go to ground any time you get attention -- only when you get a lot of attention. In those cases the ruins provide a 3+ cover save, which is better than the 4+ cover save area terrain gives.
Furthermore, ruins let you split your unit across multiple levels, making it harder to hit them with a flamer template weapon.