Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Im just starting Dark Eldar (still building my 1000pt force), and I was intruigued by how little anyone rates Mandrakes.

Ive read their rules and it seems like they have a lot of drawbacks, and i can see that they would not be especially effective on the table.

The models and fluff are awesome though, imo. So im wondering, is there a way to use them?

Haemoculus in a raider(or venom) with them for the pain token.

No, unless the FAQ to let their special 4 armed leader make them be able to assualt the turn they arrive.

Mandrakes really just don't have the stats to justify their point costs.
I've been trying to figure out a way to justify their costs, but I just can't find one. If they were 8 points each, they would be great.

This is sad, because they are such beautiful models.

The problem is their vulnerability. There are a number of ways they could be used - as a distraction, as a bluff unit, as an objective contester... but all of those uses are too easily countered with a single basic unit's firepower. One Tactical squad's worth of bolters and *BLAM* - half or more of your Mandrakes are dead and if any are left, they may well be running.

I'd go so far as to say taking them is actually doing your opponent a favour in any missions where units give away KP.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Mandrakes really just don't have the stats to justify their point costs.
I've been trying to figure out a way to justify their costs, but I just can't find one. If they were 8 points each, they would be great.

This is sad, because they are such beautiful models.

I agree, the models look beautiful and scary as hell. I may just use some as Incubi for the models. Though I like the incubi models a lot too haha!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:

I'd go so far as to say taking them is actually doing your opponent a favour in any missions where units give away KP.

Sadly youre probably right.

The only thing mandrakes are effective at is wasting your money when you buy them.. since they're so expensive $$ wise!

It's hard to use a unit with no offensive punch or resilience.

I have found one use for them.

Models for D&D games. Oh yea, that's my wizard baby!

 labmouse42 wrote:
I have found one use for them.

Models for D&D games. Oh yea, that's my wizard baby!

lol that's great.

They would also make a good Duskblade or even hexblade.

They are awesome models. If you proxy / count-as some other unit with them, nobody will mind. That or using them to add D6 cool points to your display shelf, that's how they can be effective.

Well, Raider + Haemonculus, so they start out slightly protected and start with Baleblast is ok but, Elite slots are always best used for Trueborn.

The only list i've come up with for them is where I place a full squad of them behind an adl with a quad-gun with a haemie and the baron attached so they have a 3+ cover and fnp, while the rest of my army is made up of small squads of wracks in venoms and ravagers who hide behind them and shoot stuff.

But that can be accomplished with any unit.. not sure how that is mandrake specific. It's just "put models behind an ADL"

Probably because they would be scary as hell to assault.. But yeah, much better and cheaper units for that.. To the poit that your NOT taking cool unit X to afford bad unit Z

Well they can pin which can help a little, infiltrating a full unit with a haemonculus into some cover could help survivability and try to pin with the bale blast, then stick to cover until you can assault.

Mandrakes give you great deployment options, are excellent shooters once their Pain Token is in place and frankly, Not that hard to get them the token they need, even in round 1.

I really like the pressure they put on the enemy and the way they can hide so well in cover. We all know that cover can be circumvented by some units, but nonetheless, the Mandrakes were one of my favorite units in the Dark eldar codex before, and now. Really fun to use.

The fact that they can put up their dukes and fight also is never a bad thing. They aren't a true assault unit, but they do in a pinch and they are good shooting units with nasty AP. fast, easy to deploy.... I dont know what your army NEEDS but Mandrakes could provide you some value.

 Jancoran wrote:
Mandrakes give you great deployment options, are excellent shooters once their Pain Token is in place and frankly, Not that hard to get them the token they need, even in round 1.

I really like the pressure they put on the enemy and the way they can hide so well in cover. We all know that cover can be circumvented by some units, but nonetheless, the Mandrakes were one of my favorite units in the Dark eldar codex before, and now. Really fun to use.

The fact that they can put up their dukes and fight also is never a bad thing. They aren't a true assault unit, but they do in a pinch and they are good shooting units with nasty AP. fast, easy to deploy.... I dont know what your army NEEDS but Mandrakes could provide you some value.

I admire your ability to write up a contrarian point of view on any unit in 40k regardless of how terrible they are.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Mandrakes give you great deployment options, are excellent shooters once their Pain Token is in place and frankly, Not that hard to get them the token they need, even in round 1.

I really like the pressure they put on the enemy and the way they can hide so well in cover. We all know that cover can be circumvented by some units, but nonetheless, the Mandrakes were one of my favorite units in the Dark eldar codex before, and now. Really fun to use.

The fact that they can put up their dukes and fight also is never a bad thing. They aren't a true assault unit, but they do in a pinch and they are good shooting units with nasty AP. fast, easy to deploy.... I dont know what your army NEEDS but Mandrakes could provide you some value.

I admire your ability to write up a contrarian point of view on any unit in 40k regardless of how terrible they are.

Me too, please tell me the benefits of running Pyrovores over Biovores.

Mandrakes make very effective Incubi.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Mandrakes give you great deployment options, are excellent shooters once their Pain Token is in place and frankly, Not that hard to get them the token they need, even in round 1.

I really like the pressure they put on the enemy and the way they can hide so well in cover. We all know that cover can be circumvented by some units, but nonetheless, the Mandrakes were one of my favorite units in the Dark eldar codex before, and now. Really fun to use.

The fact that they can put up their dukes and fight also is never a bad thing. They aren't a true assault unit, but they do in a pinch and they are good shooting units with nasty AP. fast, easy to deploy.... I dont know what your army NEEDS but Mandrakes could provide you some value.

I admire your ability to write up a contrarian point of view on any unit in 40k regardless of how terrible they are.

Lol. I dont think a contrarian view is the goal. I think the OP wanted to know if they could be used successfully. and since I have, I wa sharing the positives I've seen in them.

Consider that i just attended a tournament this weekend. there were 96 players. I play a Tau force that has , no Broadsides and no Skyrays. No sniper rounds on the Kroot. i even took Sniper Drones in my Heavy Slot and my Warlord wasn't Farsun, it was DarkStrider.

I went 5-0

Now if someone got on this forum and tried to tell you that could be done, you'd be unlikley to listen and you'd say "what a contrarian". But then... It worked. So maybe there's more to this contrarian pouint of view than just being a contrarian. Consider it.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Mandrakes give you great deployment options, are excellent shooters once their Pain Token is in place and frankly, Not that hard to get them the token they need, even in round 1.

I really like the pressure they put on the enemy and the way they can hide so well in cover. We all know that cover can be circumvented by some units, but nonetheless, the Mandrakes were one of my favorite units in the Dark eldar codex before, and now. Really fun to use.

The fact that they can put up their dukes and fight also is never a bad thing. They aren't a true assault unit, but they do in a pinch and they are good shooting units with nasty AP. fast, easy to deploy.... I dont know what your army NEEDS but Mandrakes could provide you some value.

I admire your ability to write up a contrarian point of view on any unit in 40k regardless of how terrible they are.

Me too, please tell me the benefits of running Pyrovores over Biovores.

Mandrakes make very effective Incubi.

how about Kherila the decapitator, the mandrake special character.

 Kirasu wrote:
But that can be accomplished with any unit.. not sure how that is mandrake specific. It's just "put models behind an ADL"

True, but mandrakes are one of the only de units if not the only unit thats good at shooting and assault (except maybe hellions) so they can shoot and then assault once the enemy gets close, and I forgot to include that they have stealth so they would actually be getting a 2+ cover save along with fnp, which is pretty nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If nothing else they would be able to soak up a decent amount of firepower while the rest of your army dakkas away

The old metal ones make great paperweights.

The Decapitator is not an IC so he can't join the mandrakes.

I've used Mandrakes to escort an max points Archon with a haemy and it's not terrible having stealth and move through cover spread to the whole unit as long as it's a terrain heavy board and your opponent can't just arbitrarily remove your cover save. Does most of the same things the harlies do.

Many people believe you can attach ICs to them and outflank, if so the Archon, Haemy + mandrakes combo works a bit better. For it to be worth while at all the Archon needs tons of upgrades and needs to have a good target to kill that he needs as an escort.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Mandrakes really just don't have the stats to justify their point costs.
I've been trying to figure out a way to justify their costs, but I just can't find one. If they were 8 points each, they would be great.

This is sad, because they are such beautiful models.

You can't be serious. At 8 points a piece they would be completely broken.


Mandrakes fall into the same category as most Infiltrate/Outflankers in that they are generally unpopular because people generally suck at taking advantage of Infiltrate/Outflank.

With a single Pain Token they become a quite respectable unit, comparing favorably in offensive and defensive capabilities to Grey Hunters, which most people think are broken. The key is getting them the PT early, either via a Haemie, or Cronos.

I5, Stealth, 5++ (in an era of Drakes, Tau, and Wave Serpents), AP 4 Assault 2 pinning weapons, move through cover, infiltrate, FNP, etc. There is a lot of good people completely overlook in the unit, primarily because they can't figure out when and where to apply them correctly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To Add: Spiritseers actually mesh incredibly well with Mandrakes, if you can find a way to get them together.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
With a single Pain Token they become a quite respectable unit, comparing favorably in offensive and defensive capabilities to Grey Hunters, which most people think are broken.

To use your own term - you can't be serious. Though I do agree 8 points is far too cheap, they are nowhere near as good as Grey Hunters. Neither Stealth nor FNP are comparable to a 3+ save with all the cover-ignoring options appearing, and T3 compared to T4 is a big drop.
Offensively, they don't get to reroll all 1's in a single phase for a mere 10 points. That's a big part of what makes Grey Hunters so broken.

Offensively AND defensively - they don't get to let rip with rapid-fire weapons and still get an extra Attack when charged. Grey Hunters get the best of both worlds in that respect.

For a unit-to-unit comparison I would have put them closer to Marine Scouts, with the basic pistol and CCW combo - the advantages and disadvantages then cancel each other out much more evenly.

Stick them with Karandras (Stealth) or Illic (Shrouded) and get a pain token using one of those two. Then split off and fry stuff.

Has anyone tried zipping four around in a venom with a haemy with a liquifier ? It seems a decent shooting unit and one more than capable of jumping out and wiping a small backfield/objective squad.

flaming tadpole wrote:
True, but mandrakes are one of the only de units if not the only unit thats good at shooting and assault (except maybe hellions) so they can shoot and then assault once the enemy gets close, and I forgot to include that they have stealth so they would actually be getting a 2+ cover save along with fnp, which is pretty nice.

How are they good in assault? 15 points gets you 2 WS4 Str4 attacks at init 4. But they are still T3, 5+ save and no grenades. CSM are 13 points, get T4 3+ saves and 2 types of grenades. I dont see how Mandrakes are good at assault

ShadarLogoth wrote:
With a single Pain Token they become a quite respectable unit, comparing favorably in offensive and defensive capabilities to Grey Hunters, which most people think are broken. The key is getting them the PT early, either via a Haemie, or Cronos.

I5, Stealth, 5++ (in an era of Drakes, Tau, and Wave Serpents), AP 4 Assault 2 pinning weapons, move through cover, infiltrate, FNP, etc. There is a lot of good people completely overlook in the unit, primarily because they can't figure out when and where to apply them correctly.

Let me explain the math behind why I said 8 points. This should illustrate in hard numbers why Mandrakes are waaaaay overcosted.

This is the DPP value of a Mandrake. This is assuming your taking 10 and adding a 30 point hemi for FNP.
GEQ : 42.32804233
MEQ : 10.58201058
TEQ : 5.291005291

This is the DPP value of a Grey Hunter
GEQ : 51.30984643
MEQ : 21.43923686
TEQ : 13.48991075

So they do less damage per point than grey hunters across the board. They are less than half vs MEQ targets. This is damage per point output, so if you brought 220 points of mandrakes you would be doing the same damage as 100 points of grey hunters.

I'm sure you thinking they are more resilient to damage then. A 5++ is great right? How do they stack up?
This is the RPP of a Mandrake
LasGun : 50
Bolter : 28
PG : 10

This is the RPP of a Grey Hunter
LasGun : 120
Bolter : 60
PG : 12

So against anything the Mandrakes evaporate a lot faster! On a per-point basis they just evaporate faster than grey hunters.
Stealth, inflitrate, move through cover? A str 4 and 2 attacks (but no extra CCW?) Mandrakes just fall short in every capacity.
If they were 8 points each, they would still have lower RPP values than a grey hunter, and their DPP values would be equal to guardians vs GEQ (80) and on par with grey hunters vs MEQ and TEQ.

So yea.....Mandrakes should be 8 points each. They are completely overcosted at 15 points each.

8 points would be silly.