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 Kain wrote:
Of course the Space Wolves know about Chaos, heck they fought flipping Daemon Angron and the World Eaters legion. They've had to get the Thousand Sons off their world several times. They've participated in most every black crusade, and hell, Logan was able to recognize Angron for who he was even in Daemon Prince form and called down the Grey Knights.

I'm starting a Space Wolves army

Jimobofo wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Of course the Space Wolves know about Chaos, heck they fought flipping Daemon Angron and the World Eaters legion. They've had to get the Thousand Sons off their world several times. They've participated in most every black crusade, and hell, Logan was able to recognize Angron for who he was even in Daemon Prince form and called down the Grey Knights.

I'm starting a Space Wolves army

They go very well with the guard, so if you have some guard forces, try pairing them up.

 Lynata wrote:

Spartak wrote:Honestly have no idea wtf everyone else is talking about lol.

To deliver on my earlier remark:

"Thus, only the most stout-hearted and iron-willed are permitted to know and retain knowledge of the Daemons and their masters, the Dark Gods of Chaos. The bearers of this knowledge are few, and they share this information reluctantly. The Inquisition and their erstwhile allies, the Grey Knights, are among the tiny number of humans who are allowed to know of the Daemons and their evil ways. Most others who come into contact with them are culled to prevent the promulgation of knowledge and the possible spread of daemonic taint. If they are of sufficient value to the Imperium, they are mind-wiped to erase all memories of the encounter."
- 6E Rulebook : Appendix, Daemons, p.404

As Lynata quotes, the knowledge of the Daemon is a risk to the Imperium in itself. So how can some Chapters get away with it and others can't. Weak willed Astartes?

 Stonerhino wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Can you think of any occasions when marines have been mind wiped due to seeing demons?

Actually in The Emperor's gift it is stated that only the Chapter master are allowed to know about the Grey Knights. All others get mind wiped. The one exception to this and only post Emperor's Gift is the Space Wolves. IIrc Bjorns says something like "You are known to us now". After saying there will be no mind wipes.

Edit: Sorry wrong quote. See the above post.

But then there is no mention of the mind wiping in Vraks as far as I can tell. Perhaps I have missed that.

Possibly it comes down to how severe the Daemonic Incursion was as in the case of the Sky Sentinals Sondheim V was on it's last legs and pretty much about to become a Daemon World, probably about as serious as you can get. Also the Grey Knights can't be everywhere at once and there will be chapters that engage Daemons and retain knowledge of the encounter, like the Doom Warriors in the Emperor Wept short story.

 Kain wrote:
Of course the Space Wolves know about Chaos, heck they fought flipping Daemon Angron and the World Eaters legion. They've had to get the Thousand Sons off their world several times. They've participated in most every black crusade, and hell, Logan was able to recognize Angron for who he was even in Daemon Prince form and called down the Grey Knights.

But that would have been after the book the OP is referring to is set I guess, way after, so they would not have faced Angron or perhaps encountered the Grey Knights yet.

But then there is no mention of the mind wiping in Vraks as far as I can tell.

There is no mention that i can see either. But it is Krieg forces doing the fighting. Who are they going to tell?

DOOMONYOU wrote:

But then there is no mention of the mind wiping in Vraks as far as I can tell.

There is no mention that i can see either. But it is Krieg forces doing the fighting. Who are they going to tell?

Red Scorpions, Angels of Absolution and Red Hunters aren't DKoK, even Dark Angels were involved in the early stages.

Well some of them even joined the ranks of The Red Corsairs...
So yeah, they know and some ARE chaos...

So if the majority of the Imperium doesn't know about Daemons, I wonder what this means for their understanding of Gellar Fields? I suppose that they just have some vague understanding that "bad things" will happen if they travel without one, perhaps?

 Lynata wrote:
"Thus, only the most stout-hearted and iron-willed are permitted to know and retain knowledge of the Daemons and their masters, the Dark Gods of Chaos. The bearers of this knowledge are few, and they share this information reluctantly. The Inquisition and their erstwhile allies, the Grey Knights, are among the tiny number of humans who are allowed to know of the Daemons and their evil ways. Most others who come into contact with them are culled to prevent the promulgation of knowledge and the possible spread of daemonic taint. If they are of sufficient value to the Imperium, they are mind-wiped to erase all memories of the encounter."
- 6E Rulebook : Appendix, Daemons, p.404

Hmmmm. But the SoB seem to know about them too. They raid a Daemon world and just leave again in their codex, seemingly in view of a "fleet" of Grey Knight ships, no less. And in Faith and Fire they seem to understand what Daemons are. Could be a oversight, though.

Pilau Rice wrote:So how can some Chapters get away with it and others can't. Weak willed Astartes?

Considering that fully half the Legions turned during the Heresy, the Space Marines may be regarded as somewhat "predisposed" towards corruption. This is less an issue of willpower as a whole, but rather the subcategory of self-restraint. It's one thing to push oneself on in battle despite of grievous injuries, but it is another to resist the lure of pride that follows from the glory of such encounters. And was it not pride that turned Horus against the Emperor?

Ironically, keeping them in the dark about the daemonic threat may be more dangerous than letting them know and steel themselves against this risk, yet I can see where the Inquisition's scepticism is rooted in, and concealment of knowledge, even when (or perhaps especially when) it is beneficial, could be seen as another aspect of 40k's Grimdark™ theme.

Perhaps "some Chapters" can get away with it because the incident was not logged or because the individual Inquisitor (let's keep in mind this organisation does not function like a uniform body such as, say, the Commissariat) didn't bother with it. Or perhaps some Chapters are just Special Snowflakes to whose half the rules that are applied to Astartes in general are overlooked. Or perhaps it's just a matter of who writes the stuff ->

Pilau Rice wrote:But then there is no mention of the mind wiping in Vraks as far as I can tell.

The only source really detailing that conflict is a FW book - and FW is a different studio, and different writers tend to forget or often are not aware of such details. It's no different to the conflicts found in various novels. To give another example, Vraks was also about an Apostate Cardinal, yet the force whose official mandate lists "policing the clergy" as one of their chief duties - the Sisters of Battle - was nowhere to be seen.

Troike wrote:Hmmmm. But the SoB seem to know about them too. They raid a Daemon world and just leave again in their codex, seemingly in view of a "fleet" of Grey Knight ships, no less. And in Faith and Fire they seem to understand what Daemons are. Could be a oversight, though.

Well, as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, the Ordo Malleus may have trouble enforcing its edicts on them. Inquisition vs Inquisition.
Same about the Deathwatch, I'd reckon.

Though I could think of the Sororitas also controlling this knowledge internally. Not every convent or every rank within the Sisterhood may be aware. It could be limited to the Major Orders, or the Celestian corps, etc? Just a theory. And, of course, the Sisterhood seems more resistant against daemonic corruption than the Astartes, likely due to their generally more humble lifestyle (that, and the Inquisition may generally trust them more due to their history of cooperation).

In the old fluff marines were mind wiped of any memory of their contact with chaos or daemons. They somehow did it to where only their memory of the enemy was lost but they still retained learned experiences they could use the next time.

Chump troops like line IG or citizens are simply killed off or sterilized. I would imagine more elite troops like Storm Troopers are simply mind wiped like marines due to the incredible expense in both time and money that has gone into their training.

All Space Marines know abotu Daemons and Chaos. They have too.

I think it comes down to the difference between the grimdark background fluff that gets put into the rules and the codexes compared to the practical realities of writing coherent narratives for novels. Its hard to keep characters developing if you have to liquidate them or remove their personality all the time. Even with special characters in the codexes its difficult because they effectively have a story written for them, and to make them as well connected and relevant as possible with all the different factions they will tend to know something about all of them, even if that is at odds with the generic background fluff.

Given the size of the Imperium, its probable that whole swathes of the Imperial armed forces will get nowhere near a daemonic incursion. In most cases Chaotic effects on planets are in the form of inssurrection and heresy, rather than full blown daemon materialisation. If a limited number of chaos marines or daemons turn up then only those directly involved in those actions would need to be "looked at". And I woudl imagine that in most cases daemonic effects could just be explained away by reference to xenos technology.

Certainly if you read any of the BL books everyone involved is pretty familiar with daemons given the regularity with which they get in to ships in warp space

 Lynata wrote:
Considering that fully half the Legions turned during the Heresy, the Space Marines may be regarded as somewhat "predisposed" towards corruption. This is less an issue of willpower as a whole, but rather the subcategory of self-restraint. It's one thing to push oneself on in battle despite of grievous injuries, but it is another to resist the lure of pride that follows from the glory of such encounters. And was it not pride that turned Horus against the Emperor?

Ironically, keeping them in the dark about the daemonic threat may be more dangerous than letting them know and steel themselves against this risk, yet I can see where the Inquisition's scepticism is rooted in, and concealment of knowledge, even when (or perhaps especially when) it is beneficial, could be seen as another aspect of 40k's Grimdark™ theme.

Perhaps "some Chapters" can get away with it because the incident was not logged or because the individual Inquisitor (let's keep in mind this organisation does not function like a uniform body such as, say, the Commissariat) didn't bother with it. Or perhaps some Chapters are just Special Snowflakes to whose half the rules that are applied to Astartes in general are overlooked. Or perhaps it's just a matter of who writes the stuff ->

21st founding chapter would certainly attract a higher level of scrutiny than a 2nd founding i would imagine, or a Chapter whose parent has gone rogue.

 Lynata wrote:
only source really detailing that conflict is a FW book - and FW is a different studio, and different writers tend to forget or often are not aware of such details. It's no different to the conflicts found in various novels. To give another example, Vraks was also about an Apostate Cardinal, yet the force whose official mandate lists "policing the clergy" as one of their chief duties - the Sisters of Battle - was nowhere to be seen.

Shouldn't really make much of a difference but it's the typical scenario.

Perhaps the situation was deemed to much for the sisters, hence why the Grey Knights were made available rather than the sisters.

 Lynata wrote:

Troike wrote:Hmmmm. But the SoB seem to know about them too. They raid a Daemon world and just leave again in their codex, seemingly in view of a "fleet" of Grey Knight ships, no less. And in Faith and Fire they seem to understand what Daemons are. Could be a oversight, though.

Well, as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, the Ordo Malleus may have trouble enforcing its edicts on them. Inquisition vs Inquisition.
Same about the Deathwatch, I'd reckon.

Though I could think of the Sororitas also controlling this knowledge internally. Not every convent or every rank within the Sisterhood may be aware. It could be limited to the Major Orders, or the Celestian corps, etc? Just a theory. And, of course, the Sisterhood seems more resistant against daemonic corruption than the Astartes, likely due to their generally more humble lifestyle (that, and the Inquisition may generally trust them more due to their history of cooperation).

And their strength of belief in the God - Emperor, perhaps it's because of their faith that they are allowed to know of Daemons. The existence of the Daemon proves the existence of the God Emperor.

SOB are needed for the Grey Knight blood baths. Maybe the more they fight daemons the better quality blood they have.

Pilau Rice wrote:21st founding chapter would certainly attract a higher level of scrutiny than a 2nd founding i would imagine, or a Chapter whose parent has gone rogue.

That too - it may well be a case-by-case situation, just like it is with Chapters being considered for Excommunication. Hence my earlier remark about it being a combination of factors. The Chapter's standing, the Inquisitor's personality, the nature of the incursion ... it all could influence the final verdict.
Supposedly the Inquisition did try it on the Space Wolves, though, hence my bitter remark about the "usual exceptions". That said, I can't recall which source that was in - any ideas? It was Codex fluff somewhere, right?

Pilau Rice wrote:Perhaps the situation was deemed to much for the sisters, hence why the Grey Knights were made available rather than the sisters.

But as per that book the GKs only showed up in the last stage of the conflict; the brunt of the fighting was borne by the DKoK alongside which they could have deployed. And "too much"? Compared to Armageddon or the 13th Black Crusade?

FW just has no designers with much interest in the Sisters. Even their "Forces of the Inquisition" army book has, like, a single picture of an Exorcist - and that's it. And that Exorcist is in a colour that goes flat against the uniform regulations established by the core studio.
Perhaps it is better this way, though - better to not write anything at all than write about something one has no interest in or knowledge about.

Although I should perhaps point out that the SoB were actually mentioned in the Vraks book. As a footnote. As the tortured and broken bodyguard of the Apostate Cardinal, to play the Damsel in Distress and be put out of their misery by the arrival of the mighty Astartes.
Ha, and people think they get away badly in Black Library novels...

Pilau Rice wrote:And their strength of belief in the God - Emperor, perhaps it's because of their faith that they are allowed to know of Daemons. The existence of the Daemon proves the existence of the God Emperor.

But by itself, is this not a reasoning that could be applied to every Imperial citizen, including the massed ranks of the Imperial Guard?

This reminds me of the dialogue between Daemon Prince Parmenides, Ultramarines Sergeant Castus and Battle Sister Aescarion in "Daemonblood", by the way. An excellent interpretation of how it might "work", how the differences between the two lifestyles might influence susceptibility to manipulation.

There is no such thing as Chaos. There is bad juju that is a disturbance in the cycle of life and death of Fenris. Or something.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:21st founding chapter would certainly attract a higher level of scrutiny than a 2nd founding i would imagine, or a Chapter whose parent has gone rogue.

That too - it may well be a case-by-case situation, just like it is with Chapters being considered for Excommunication. Hence my earlier remark about it being a combination of factors. The Chapter's standing, the Inquisitor's personality, the nature of the incursion ... it all could influence the final verdict.
Supposedly the Inquisition did try it on the Space Wolves, though, hence my bitter remark about the "usual exceptions". That said, I can't recall which source that was in - any ideas? It was Codex fluff somewhere, right?

Thats Space wolves codex fluff, re-written in the emperor's gift.

The Inquisition came calling and the wolves said 'no thanks, no cold callers' and went about their business.

 Lynata wrote:
That too - it may well be a case-by-case situation, just like it is with Chapters being considered for Excommunication. Hence my earlier remark about it being a combination of factors. The Chapter's standing, the Inquisitor's personality, the nature of the incursion ... it all could influence the final verdict.
Supposedly the Inquisition did try it on the Space Wolves, though, hence my bitter remark about the "usual exceptions". That said, I can't recall which source that was in - any ideas? It was Codex fluff somewhere, right?

Nothing in the Grey Knights or Space Wolves codex, just about Grimnar being angry, same as with the Codicium Imperialis article.

 Lynata wrote:
But as per that book the GKs only showed up in the last stage of the conflict; the brunt of the fighting was borne by the DKoK alongside which they could have deployed. And "too much"? Compared to Armageddon or the 13th Black Crusade?

But then would they have been needed at that time? I know the Imperium likes to crush an egg by dropping an elephant from space but thee chapters, Grey Knights and the DKoK, would they have made much difference?

Compared to being available at that time maybe, maybe they were having a great time burning heretics in some other major event.

 Lynata wrote:

Perhaps it is better this way, though - better to not write anything at all than write about something one has no interest in or knowledge about.

They might just surprise you yet Lynata ... but I wouldn't get your hopes up

 Lynata wrote:

Although I should perhaps point out that the SoB were actually mentioned in the Vraks book. As a footnote. As the tortured and broken bodyguard of the Apostate Cardinal, to play the Damsel in Distress and be put out of their misery by the arrival of the mighty Astartes.
Ha, and people think they get away badly in Black Library novels...

Well there you go then, what more do you want and isn't that the way it's supposed to be as well, Louis gets saved by Superman, not the other way around god forbid

 Lynata wrote:
But by itself, is this not a reasoning that could be applied to every Imperial citizen, including the massed ranks of the Imperial Guard?

This reminds me of the dialogue between Daemon Prince Parmenides, Ultramarines Sergeant Castus and Battle Sister Aescarion in "Daemonblood", by the way. An excellent interpretation of how it might "work", how the differences between the two lifestyles might influence susceptibility to manipulation.

I would use that example as probably one of the best out there. The faith of all others can waver where the Sisters never does, fear can corrupt faith, as can pride.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But then would they have been needed at that time? I know the Imperium likes to crush an egg by dropping an elephant from space but thee chapters, Grey Knights and the DKoK, would they have made much difference?

Doesn't really matter if were "needed" or not. Policing the clergy, defending the Ecclesiarchy's worlds and stamping out heresy are some of the Sisterhood's main duties. They should have definetely shown up, especially to a Cardinal going heretic, which is a rather high-profile event.

To put it in perspective, this is roughly the equivilant of the Grey Knights not showing up at Daemon infestation on a civilised world. Could they have been busy elsewhere? Possibly, but they really should have been there.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Perhaps it is better this way, though - better to not write anything at all than write about something one has no interest in or knowledge about.

They might just surprise you yet Lynata ... but I wouldn't get your hopes up

Maybe they'll do something when the new codex eventually drops, but yeah I can live without it if their hearts aren't in it. But hey, they also wrote the fluff about how the Sisters got the Repressor, which was actually quite good.

 Troike wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But then would they have been needed at that time? I know the Imperium likes to crush an egg by dropping an elephant from space but thee chapters, Grey Knights and the DKoK, would they have made much difference?

Doesn't really matter if were "needed" or not. Policing the clergy, defending the Ecclesiarchy's worlds and stamping out heresy are some of the Sisterhood's main duties. They should have definetely shown up, especially to a Cardinal going heretic, which is a rather high-profile event.

To put it in perspective, this is roughly the equivilant of the Grey Knights not showing up at Daemon infestation on a civilised world. Could they have been busy elsewhere? Possibly, but they really should have been there.

They Should be at every Daemonic Incursion true, but they physically can't be.

In this case it does seem a bit strange that the sisters weren't involved, especially after the portion assigned to Vraks were overwhelmed.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:21st founding chapter would certainly attract a higher level of scrutiny than a 2nd founding i would imagine, or a Chapter whose parent has gone rogue.

That too - it may well be a case-by-case situation, just like it is with Chapters being considered for Excommunication. Hence my earlier remark about it being a combination of factors. The Chapter's standing, the Inquisitor's personality, the nature of the incursion ... it all could influence the final verdict.
Supposedly the Inquisition did try it on the Space Wolves, though, hence my bitter remark about the "usual exceptions". That said, I can't recall which source that was in - any ideas? It was Codex fluff somewhere, right?

Not sure if the codex goes into it in any great detail, but in Emperor's Gift the following happens:

Inquisition and Space Wolves are brought to the brink of war over disagreement on how to handle surviving soldiers of Armageddon.
Lord Inquisitor threatens to Exterminatus and Excommunicatus and all sorts of other Exs if they don't stop their meddling in Inquisition affairs.
Logan kills Lord Inquisitor and some random Grandmaster douche.
Everyone else at the assembly: DUDE, WTF?!
Logan: *foams at mouth*
Bjorn: Everyone settle the feth down, I want to go back to sleep!
Everyone: Ok, that's cool, I guess.
Logan:


Everyone goes home. End scene. Womp womp.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They Should be at every Daemonic Incursion true, but they physically can't be.

Oh sorry. I should have clarified, I know they physically can't be at every incursion, but I'm saying it makes sense for them to show up for really major ones. To re-do the comparison, it's roughly equivilant to the GKs not showing for the appearence of a Daemon Prince or something like that.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
In this case it does seem a bit strange that the sisters weren't involved, especially after the portion assigned to Vraks were overwhelmed.

Like Lynata said, it's likely down to the FW guys not really having any interest in them. They wanted to write a book about some Marines, DKoK and Chaos forces fighting it out, so that's what they wrote.

PredaKhaine wrote:Thats Space wolves codex fluff

Pilau Rice wrote:Nothing in the Grey Knights or Space Wolves codex

Time to get out the books, I guess...

Depending on what the Codex says, I might be willing to just disregard the incident as BL shenanigans. Killing an Inquisitor isn't something that should happen without any consequences whatsoever, First Founding Chapter or not. Just getting a bit tired of the SW making any other Imperial organisation look like a paper tiger; it kind of undermines the setting...

Troike wrote:Maybe they'll do something when the new codex eventually drops, but yeah I can live without it if their hearts aren't in it. But hey, they also wrote the fluff about how the Sisters got the Repressor, which was actually quite good.

True. Almost surprising, in hindsight.
I wonder if it didn't sell enough to warrant further investment in the army, or if the whole thing was just an exceptional/experimental foray into an army the writers otherwise have no interest in or that failed to inspire them. iirc, the Repressor came out roughly at the time the 3E WH Codex was released?

But that's getting a bit OT now.

 Lynata wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:Thats Space wolves codex fluff

Pilau Rice wrote:Nothing in the Grey Knights or Space Wolves codex

Time to get out the books, I guess...

Depending on what the Codex says, I might be willing to just disregard the incident as BL shenanigans. Killing an Inquisitor isn't something that should happen without any consequences whatsoever, First Founding Chapter or not. Just getting a bit tired of the SW making any other Imperial organisation look like a paper tiger; it kind of undermines the setting...

An event like that would incur retribution, especially from the Inquisition I would have thought. They are just looking for any excuse to give the Wolves their comeuppance.

The Space Wolves codex mentions about how Grimnar rants and raves about the Administratum and how he will kill them all yadda yadda, normal Space Wolf stuff. Doesn't seem to be aimed at the Inquisiton really, check for your self of course. The Grey Knight codex only has a small blurb about Armageddon.

SerQuintus wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I guess scale is a big concern, imagine them trying to cover up something like Vraks

Easily done. Kill all the troops, inform the homeworld they were killed fighting xenos. (there was an example of that in Slaves to Darkness: Army Corps wiped out by Grey Knights after defeating Emperors Children, homeworld informed all troops had been killed by Eldar.). They covered up the 1st Armageddon War and was a much bigger war on a much more important world.

Except they didn't do anything to the troopers on Vraks, save sending them to an equality harsh battlefield

 Lynata wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:Thats Space wolves codex fluff

Pilau Rice wrote:Nothing in the Grey Knights or Space Wolves codex

Time to get out the books, I guess...

Just checked the space wolves codex, two whole pages of 1st armageddon war, 1 tiny paragraph of space wolf vs inquisition stuff. Featuring Grimnar yawping...Ultracurses! You win for now Pilau

I think it's safe to say that the leadership of chapters; Librarians, Captains, probably Chaplains, and of course Chapter Masters, all likely know about Daemons.

Whether or not your average tactical marine knows about Daemons is another matter of course. First off they may not fight them all that often. Cults, sure, and probably renegade marines too, but Daemons might only pop up once in a great while. If the big bads in your neck of the woods are orks, you could conceivably go a long time before you ever saw a bloodletter.

Now, once the do run into them is probably dependent on whether the GK are around to do some mind wiping. If they are, then the rank and file might not consistently know of Daemons, but I have to imagine there are a lot of chapters out there who found out and didn't get mindwiped.

Doesn't a gene seed store the memories of each marine it's been a part of? So you could mind wipe a marine, but the next guy finds out anyway when he gets his gene seed?

I think you may be confusing this with the Marines' ability to "acquire" the base instincts of local fauna and slain enemies by eating their flesh?

Also, thanks for checking the books, guys. Guess that solves it - for me at least.

Chapter masters know about the grey knights, but most marines are mind wiped when they come ito contact with them. As far as daemons, most marines know about them. No other way around it.

Regarding the wolves specifically: they didn't get to the"brink" of war with the inquisition. They were at war. The "brink" was a political problem. The inquisition simply wasn't strong enough to take down a first founding chapter without serious repurcussions from all Astartes that would rock the Imperium to its core. In the end, level heads stopped the bloodshed and kept it from completely spiraling out of control. It helped that the lead Inquisitor was killed in the digging. Of course, it was more of a detente situation with the inquisition vowing to make life miserable for the wolves because they didnt follow orders and the wolves never again trusting the inquisition.

clively wrote:The inquisition simply wasn't strong enough to take down a first founding chapter without serious repurcussions from all Astartes that would rock the Imperium to its core.

Personally, I don't think I can buy that - not after what happened to the Celestial Lions. If the Inquisition would see a need to dispose of the Space Wolves silently, they'd certainly manage to do so, considering the resources at their disposal.
I also do not believe that all Astartes are that close with each other, not in the least because several Chapters were sponsored/created under direct oversight of the Inquisition, and violent blood feuds between Chapters not being unheard of. That the Space Wolves have few to no known Successors themselves only makes it easier.

That is, of course, just my assessment - and differing opinions regarding this topic are to be expected.