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I see no problem with elite imperial pilots. Regardless of whether Ties are spammed or not in our fictional universe, the top pilots are going to survive and the average ones will get killed off. You have to imagine the Empire has forces spread out all over the galaxy in its subjugation, perhaps that is why we see so few Ties engaging the rebels (all of them) outside the Death Star.
Weren't all the fighter battle scenes (at least in the first movie) a shot for shot copy of WWII dogfighting gun camera footage? I am sure to keep the fights more personal and dramatic they did this and deliberaty kept the numbers low and even. In episode 6 there was an entire fleet of star destroyers just being held back, surely each of those have a sortie of tie fighters? The fights were kept personal and it does seem the emperor held back troops due to his hubris also he severly underestimates the capacity of his foe.
We all assume that the rebels are supposed to be elite pilots but look at their tactics during the attack on both Death Stars and tell me who really is using swarm tactics? The rebels are gambling on loosing everything as long as they can get one proton torpedo down a vent shaft (ship into center of Death Star). Sounds pretty swarm like to me. How about "staying on target" when you are 20 seconds out of range while there are enemy fighters on your 6 blasting your wingmen into smitherines? If anything their tactics are more similar to Japanese Kamikazzes than anything else; than mantra of "one will get through". And are you seriously telling me Porkins is an elite pilot? He's grossly overweight and would probably have to turn up his oxygen mixture when leaving an atmosphere and doesn't seem too quick on the stick, who cleared this guy for Xwing pilot status?! Clearly the rebels are scrapping the bottom of the barrel at this point, whereas the empire has a galaxy wide pool of humans to draw countless pilots and by default the cream will rise to the top, and you know those three ties that just got blown up, already replaced them. Shoot we lost another Xwing pilot today, clear Porkins for flight status, I want that far boy in the air!
Yeah, there are certainly elite Imperial pilots. I mean, when you have a gazillion recruits at least a couple will be good.
The issue is not whether the pilots are/can be good but rather how the Empire went from flying the space plane equivalent of disposable razors in the movies to the Mary Sue-class fighters of the EU. My theory is, Lucas wanted to present an Evil Empire that doesn't give a gak about its people -- but a lot of people working on the EU, writing stories from the Imperial perspective, wanted to put a more rational and "golly gee they're so neat" spin on the Empire.
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TheLionOfTheForest wrote: whereas the empire has a galaxy wide pool of humans to draw countless pilots and by default the cream will rise to the top
Yep -- just remember those Imps on Endor, the ones beaten up by teddy bears, were the Emperor's best troops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 13:35:30
Goresaw wrote: We're basically putting a lot of thought into what amounts to a children's movie... but hey, we're geeks.
I always saw the TIE as the best fighter the imperials could put together for the money, and met their vision of wars to come.
They had just finished fighting the clone wars. A 'typical' war. Vast armadas fighting for real estate over planets. You needed fighters to fend off the bombers of other capital ships. So, provided you have the docking space, why build fighters with hyperdrives?
That brings us to the second point, as the 'new' authority in the galaxy, you need to be everywhere at once. You need garrisons on every planet. You need escorts for every convoy. You need manpower and material. Lots of manpower and material. You need something that is cheap and effective. Something you can mass produce and put in the hands of your soldiers. TIE's fit the bill. They're cheap and easy to produce, and their agility make them more than a match for the majority of fighters in the galaxy.
The problem is, the rebellion changed the face of conflict. The rebellion, fighting an insurgency, can choose the time and place of the engagement. They can afford to be 'elite' with their material. They only need to be one place. The imperials need to be everywhere. Attacking the rebellion only scatters it, further needing more manpower and material to hunt them down. Would the imperials like TIE Avengers garrisoned everywhere? Hell yeah. Can they afford it? Hell no.
All in all. The point is, Imperial Pilots were just as good as rebel pilots. Their ships were slightly outclassed because of economic realities, poor choices in how the next war would be fought, and simple imperial overconfidence. However, TIE's are just as 'elite' as rebels and stand good chance of being 1v1 dangerous to an x-wing.
Yeah, what this guy said.
Also, RoTJ there are a lot of TIEs. After all, I think one of the Rebels even says: "There's too many of them!"
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Again, all the Imperial troops from the movies are being led by Sith who absolutely do not care about the well-being of their soldiers. When the commander doesn't care about his resources, the casualties go through the roof even if the men would be otherwise perfectly capable. Since we don't see the regular Imperial Navy absent the interference of these mildly insane leaders, it becomes impossible to say with certainty that the Imperials were, in general, inept or outclassed or that the Rebellion was more skillful given that the focus of the movies really only show an eventual Jedi Knight and one of the best fighter aces of the Rebellion.
In other words, generalizing from the best of the Rebellion and the worst of the Empire (due to command deficiencies) is going to ensure there's no definitive answer to the question.
Again, the issue is not whether there are any good pilots working for the Empire. There obviously are. Rather, this is a question of ships. Imperial design as we see it in the movies emphasizes numerical superiority and abandons resilience. Relative to their Alliance counterparts, Imperial pilots are clearly considered disposable (and not only in desperate actions like the Battle of Yavin). EU ships like the Defender and the Avenger fly in the face of this well-established convention. Peregrine made a good point about why video games would give rise to such Imperial ships. I've also noticed a trend in the EU to soften the Empire and make it seem more humane/rational compared to the brutal, inept police state we see in the movies.
You're ignoring the over-arching doctrines of each faction.
The Imperials were the lawful authority and operating from a position of strength. They had the resources to deploy carriers and stations wherever they were going to have fighters, meaning the durability was not a concern as recovery/repair operations were almost always on hand unless the carrier was defeated. Having that infrastructure and logistics was a major strength, and the basic TIEs were designed to leverage that by being cheap to produce and capable in combat. There is a slight overconfidence to be sure, because absent that logistical structure the fighters were worthless, but that doesn't mean they were incapable of fulfilling their mission.
The Rebellion was an insurgency, and had no real infrastructure to fall back on. Their hit-and-run tactics were completely at odds with a hyperdrive-less ship, as risking a capital ship was foolish outside of the most valuable targets (notice the complete lack of capital assets at the Battle of Yavin, and the comparatively small fleet they could muster for Endor). Ergo, the tactics they had to employ mandated those types of ships, as they enabled the Rebellion to fight a war it could win. These ships were more expensive and harder to produce, so to not include shields and other measures would be wasteful. When you need to make every fighter count, you don't cut corners.
As the GCW rolls on, the effectiveness of the Rebellion's tactics lead to counter-insurgency measures as it became obvious that garrisons could be overwhelmed long before a carrier could respond. Adopting the Rebellion's tactics for their elite task forces (the higher-end models of TIEs I don't believe were ever said to be a significant part of the fleet during the GCW-era) once they were demonstrated to be effective actually goes to show that the Imperial Navy hierarchy was reasonably competent when not interfered with.
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Krinsath wrote: You're ignoring the over-arching doctrines of each faction.
Um, not really.
Krinsath wrote: once they were demonstrated to be effective actually goes to show that the Imperial Navy hierarchy was reasonably competent when not interfered with.
Sure ... in the EU. That's my point: in the movies, the Empire is brutal and rather dumb; in the EU, the Empire is (more) reasonable.
Would not sturdier, more alliance style fighters be a reasonable response considering the gross failure of the TIE/ln to stop 3 squadrons from blowing up a Death star over Yavin?
90% of casualties in that battle were completed by a prototype TIE Advanced piloted by the nominal second in command of the galaxy- if Vader was happy with his ship, I'll bet he forced Sienar Fleet Systems to develop in that direction.
The heroes of video games use those ships and they are always shown as being in dramatically short supply. Were there even a dozen Missile Boats made by the end of TIE Fighter? In most battles you could still see Star Destroyers being vaped, transports eliminated and whole squadrons of TIEs being wiped out by simple minefields.
Tie Avengers were the cream of the crop, Defenders were the 'in development' dream ships that very few people even knew about, and the missile boats were the souped up prototypes that may well end up being called MadCats in Battletech's universe.
The rebels really didn't have anywhere to go- their ships inspired that TIE renaissance and had all the bells and whistles.
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Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
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Manchu wrote: Sure ... in the EU. That's my point: in the movies, the Empire is brutal and rather dumb; in the EU, the Empire is (more) reasonable.
The Empire isn't the focus of the movies, so again it invalidates any attempt to speak definitively about them which is really my core point. We don't know, because the only examples we see of the Empire they're under the command of people who clearly have personal motives that interfere with orderly command. That their hierarchy allows such a terrible idea is certainly a fact to consider, but we know because of the movies that the Imperial forces and the Old Republic forces which existed for thousands of years are functionally identical. The core of the Stormtrooper Legions is the Grand Army of the Republic, and they were shown to be an effective fighting force in the Clone Wars since, you know, the Republic won and all that jazz.
Sure, the two decades between the Clone Wars and the GCW is enough time for the command structure to regress, but the "desperate Rebels struggling to survive" angle points out that the Empire had to be giving as good as they were getting.
Only my opinion, with not a lot of cannon to back it up, but... if I was trying to outfit a ship to be super fast and rediculously manuverable I'd build a Tie fighter. Look at how well it was working out in WWII. The Zero was tearing up everthing it came up against...until we put out the P51 and P38. The Tie fighter isn't a throw away ship. It's really well designed. It can out run, and out turn it's opponent. The advanced and the interceptor are even better. As well, the Empire was going to be getting the X wing, until Incom Defected and gave them to the Rebels. Everything that I've read about imperial tactics works just like a WWII dogfight. Smaller, more manuverable Fighters and Interceptors hold the enemy in place while missile boats fly through blasting away... sound familiar my English friends? The spitfire was able to keep german planes still long enough for the hurricane's 50 cal. to rip them apart.
Krinsath wrote: the only examples we see of the Empire they're under the command of people who clearly have personal motives that interfere with orderly command
Dude, that's the whole point of the Empire. That's the reason it exists. That is its definitive quality.
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Krinsath wrote: but we know because of the movies that the Imperial forces and the Old Republic forces which existed for thousands of years are functionally identical. The core of the Stormtrooper Legions is the Grand Army of the Republic, and they were shown to be an effective fighting force in the Clone Wars since, you know, the Republic won and all that jazz
Lots of problems here:
(1) The Republic didn't have an army before Palpatine's term as Chancellor for hundreds if not thousands of years.
(2) The Clone Troopers are not the same thing as the Storm Troopers.
(3) Who won the Clone Wars is irrelevant to your argument considering that Palpatine controlled both sides.
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The Empire is shown as being too vast for any one person to effectively command at once, which would tie into how insanely big it was. The Empire was under the command of the Moffs, and of those only one is shown as Tarkin on the Death Star. He did successfully build and employ the battle station, which is more than Emperor can really claim to have done, but he's really in the movie to do little more than be the bad guy. However, there were whole swathes of the galaxy under Imperial control completely absent in the GCW-movie era because it wasn't relevant to the story at hand. It is equally likely that they were run in an orderly and efficient fashion as it was they were run by bumbling incompetents like Vader and Palpatine.
The examples shown in the movie are the Battles of Yavin, Hoth and Endor. Technically they briefly show a clash at Bespin but since one side was essentially focused on running away it seems a stretch to include it. In all cases, they were lead by someone who's defining trait was giving into emotion. That's terrible battlefield practice, and the way it's shown to be at odds with how the Imperial officers wish to operate (usually fatally for the officer in question) strongly implies that the general soldiery of the Empire do NOT work in this fashion.
The Clone Troopers would go on to form the core of the Stormtrooper legions, which is logical given that the Grand Army of the Republic existed at the end of the Clone Wars, which would be when the Empire started. The Stormtroopers were expanded from there, but the initial transition was Republic forces -> Empire forces.
Again, I'm not saying the Empire was the shining beacon of efficiency and order, because overconfidence can be found in their designs from the TIE Fighter to the Super Star Destroyer (shields and then ship disabled by a *crashing* A-Wing) to the Death Star (destroyed by a farmboy). However, taking away those garish symbols of personal power which were demanded by the lunatics in charge (which is most of the Empire's appearance in the trilogy) and you are left with a grey area. Both options are equally likely in this vacuum, so there's nothing to say your interpretation of the Empire is any more valid than the direction every EU writer took them in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 17:54:21
To reiterate, I am saying the Empire as portrayed in the movies is a blunt, coarse, inhumane, irrational organization and the Empire as portrayed in the EU is more rational. Simple.
Another thing to understand about the Empire is that it doesn't seem to be interested in the usual function of government, which is to provide structures that promote the common good. Rather, the Empire exists solely for the benefit of one guy, Palpatine, who plays everyone else off of one another to maintain that position. This explains why corruption can be found at all levels of the Empire and especially in the higher echelons; the whole thing is basically one big extortion racket. The Death Star is the ultimate symbol of this -- they build a massive super weapon in a time of peace for the sole purpose of terrifying worlds that are already members of the Empire into going along with Palpatine's whims.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/17 18:00:15
Manchu wrote: It's hard to say how many TIEs were scrambled at Yavin
Even in EU, the totality of TIEs fighting at Yavin was Vader's Black Squadron(8 TIE/LN and Vader's Advance), an elite squadron hand selected by Vader himself.
Tarkin thought the Rebel attack was pointless and refused to engage any Squadrons. He pretty much indulged Vader to let his personal squadron engage and ordered the Turbolasers to stop firing to prevent friendly fire.
That's 9 Imperial fighters sent to engage 32 Rebel fighters and bombers, of which 3 survived the main fight(it's unclear how many died in the assault on the main cannon).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/09/17 18:17:38
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And my counterpoint is that the portrayal of the Empire in the movies is colored by the limited nature of their appearance. I'm not disagreeing with you that they are shown in this manner, I am contesting that you can expand "Vader and Palpatine" to "the whole of the Empire" when we know from how huge the Republic that it replaced was that the Empire is much bigger than what was shown on screen. It wasn't going to be a healthy government because of the back-stabbing you mentioned, however in 24 years, including some major victories, the Rebels seemed unable to muster a whole lot of support from the galaxy by the time of Endor. Certainly more than they had at Yavin, but not nearly enough to show the Empire as being so woefully ineffective at providing services that the people were rallying to them.
However, it could just as easily be that most worlds chose to remain neutral and look to their own affairs while the Imperials chased the Rebels everywhere than the Empire doing "good enough" to keep people from flocking to them. That's the fun of grey areas.
@Platuan4th: I'm not familiar with your source. Also, I don't know how many ships are in a TIE Fighter squadron (unsourced Wookiepedia claim of 12).
@Krisnath: I disagree with your on-screen/off-screen analysis because what we saw on-screen was the very core of the Empire. It's an organization run for the benefit of one guy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/17 18:19:37
Manchu wrote: @Platuan4th: I'm not familiar with your source. Also, I don't know how many ships are in a TIE Fighter squadron (unsourced Wookiepedia claim of 12).
Directly from that page if you hit the "Squadrons" section:
Only a single elite squadron of TIE fighters was deployed. The members of the squadron were formed by, and under the direct command of, Darth Vader.
Black Squadron (8 TIE/LN starfighers, 1 TIE Advanced x1): Darth Vader[7] Qorl[33] Black Two - "Mauler" Mithel† Black Three - "Backstabber"† Black Four - "Dark Curse"† Black Eight - unknown†
Same page, higher up. Under "The Trench Run":
The station commander, Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin, dismissed the attack as futile and refused to deploy the station's vast TIE squadrons. But Darth Vader, realizing the material threat, ordered his personal fighter squadron to scramble on his own authority.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/17 18:20:41
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Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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Hold on while I go buy, read, and type quotes for every single source on that page and the Black Squadron page just to please you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 18:27:31
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
I'm not asking you to do that. I've been looking through wookiepedia on this subject myself and there is account after account of only 8 TIEs and Vader taking on the Rebels at Yavin -- but none of the ones I've seen are cited.
In any case, let's just assume the account for the sake of argument: it's still an example of the EU trying to rationalize the Empire. The EU source -- whatever it may be -- claims that six TIEs (backed up by turbolaser batteries) handled 32 (minus 3) Rebel starships ... because they are Vader's handpicked dudes. But as Peregrine pointed out last page, the movie does not show us any evidence of the TIE pilots being elite (Peregrine aptly described Mauler Mithel and Backstabber as "useless wingmen"). Thing is, once you start treating this like real history for the sake of writing enclopedias ... you find it makes no sense. So you need to make it make sense via new material, i.e., the EU.
But the movies aren't designed to provide fodder to fan encyclopedias. The film is about good guys fighting bad guys. The Imperials are the bad guys and, to paraphrase Lord Helmet, the good guys win because bad is dumb.
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It's an organization for the benefit of one guy, but his concerns are so far beyond ideas of what motivate most people that he doesn't really care about what's going on outside of what he cares about. He's fighting a war against the Jedi, and everything else is an amusing diversion for him to the point of the overconfidence that kills him. He's fighting on more or less a religious level and it's not shown that he's actively involved in day-to-day affairs of the worlds across the Empire. He gives orders and expects them to be followed, because he's the guy this is all set up for.
Since the societies of these worlds haven't collapsed in over two decades under the Galactic Empire, it stands to reason that someone, somewhere was keeping things functional on all those worlds which we know are a large number based on the size of the Galactic Senate. Modern societies collapse in much shorter timeframes when those things aren't done, so this would seem to be a reasonable assumption that basic services were maintained. That a large of a force as the Imperial Navy was shown to be existed speaks to huge logistical infrastructure which again indicates some level of governmental competence, if not always efficiency (see also: the Imperium of Man in 40k). That an artificial planet is constructed in roughly 20 years without seemingly impacting the construction of Imperial Star Destroyers and without causing an enormous surge of support for the Rebellion also says something.
Of course, with the vast majority of the GCW occurring off-screen, it becomes impossible to say if whole sectors weren't in open revolt and just weren't relevant. Hence my argument that the movies cannot be used as the end-all, be-all; they're simply far too limited by being entertainment and telling a singular fall-and-redemption story. World-building was not their focus, so the world built by them is incomplete and open to interpretation.
We're not disagreeing on your point about the "world" of SW being open to interpretation beyond the movies. I am contrasting what was portrayed on the screen and what has been portrayed elsewhere to show that the "elsewhere" part has shown a much more reasonable Empire than the movies.
It basically comes down to ships like the TIE Avenger and Defender being the exact opposite of the TIE Fighter and Interceptor.
Manchu wrote: Also known as the Saber Squadron, the 181st Imperial Fighter Wing was an elite TIE unit and one of the Empire’s premier fighter groups. Led by Soontir Fel, the group’s aces marked the wings of their TIE interceptors with distinctive bloodstripes as soon as they recorded ten combat kills. Because of the group’s elite composition, nearly all of its TIE interceptors proudly displayed these red, horizontal stripes, and they feature prominently on one of the TIE interceptor miniatures from the Imperial Aces Expansion Pack.
Whoa, I think I'm in love with these . Well played, fantasy flight! The temptation continues... not only that, but you'll have to buy these to get the appropriate components, rather than just painting a standard intercepter red.
Take a look at the included scenario and you'll see we're on topic after all:
Imperial Aces also features a deeply strategic and engaging new mission, Cutting the Cord, which drops players into the middle of the Rebellion’s desperate bid to keep the Empire from developing a powerful prototype starfighter. If it gets its new flight system and long-range functionality online, this Imperial prototype would forever negate the individual superiority of Rebellion starfighters.
Throughout the mission, one non-unique Imperial ship serves as the prototype, which the Rebels must destroy, but as the Rebel forces focus on destroying the prototype, the Imperial player can activate any of six different prototype technologies provided by six research facilities. Together, these technologies transform the prototype into a truly lethal weapon – one which may finally help the Empire crush the Rebellion!
You have to stop the Empire from releasing TIE Defenders and/or Avengers!
Exactly! If the Rebels fail to log enough victories, the Empire gets those new ships. If the Rebels win they get...um.....E-Wings? Not really sure the Rebels got any new toys in the scope of the LucasArt's games where there'd be a defined "look" already but it's been a while.
EITHER WAY BUY THEM NOW AND FIGHT FOR YOUR SIDE.
Actually, that would be a neat campaign from FFG that would never happen (why would you ever tie a product release into something like that?). Could be neat for a club campaign though; start with basic ships like the Y-Wing and X-Wing vs. TIE Fighters and maybe Bombers. Run some games to destroy/steal prototype fighters and victory means you can pick those ships for use in the campaign. Lose and you have to wait a week or some other time determined by the organizer. Interesting idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 20:16:28
Manchu wrote: My point was, the Interceptor is not designed with pilot survivability in mind. Heck, it doesn't even have a life support system. You're going to put your best pilots -- even the Emperor's own royal guard -- in an eggshell-strong, shieldless crotch rocket of a space plane? Yep, that's the Imperial view on the elite -- use 'em, we'll just get more when those inevitably die.
You're making the mistake of assuming that "survivability" means "lots of shields and hull". The interceptor, like the A-wing, keeps the pilot alive through superior speed and agility that lets it avoid getting hit at all. Adding shields and armor would make it easier to hit and directly contradict this design principle.
Manchu wrote: But as Peregrine pointed out last page, the movie does not show us any evidence of the TIE pilots being elite
That's not at all what I pointed out. The TIEs engaged rebel ships 1v1 and were pretty evenly matched, which means they're on the same level as the "elite" heroes of the rebellion. Look at the results:
One TIE vs. un-named rebel pilot: rebel pilot killed almost immediately.
One TIE vs. Biggs: TIE gets in behind Biggs and he can't escape. He's obviously afraid and Luke has to come save him (hey, swarm tactics!).
One TIE vs. Luke: TIE gets in behind Luke and he can't escape, and gives him a hit that would probably be fatal to anyone who isn't a main character. Like Biggs, Luke is obviously afraid and helpless and has to have his wingman come save him.
So looks like the TIEs are the elite ships and the X-wing needs 2v1 odds to win.
(Peregrine aptly described Mauler Mithel and Backstabber as "useless wingmen").
Only because Vader gave them a direct order to let him get all the kills. Though now that I've watched it again it was actually one of the wingmen, not Vader, that hit Wedge (and probably would have killed him if not for his character shield).
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Manchu wrote:There is no doubt that this game is very strong in terms of 1v1 competitive play. But there are a lot of SW fans interested in the narrative aspects of the game, too. As a separate matter, I've been concerned as a customer about the lifespan of this product line considering the extremely limited ship selection. I'm a proponent of this game staying OT-only but I'm also ready and willing to buy and play with more ships, both competitively and casually. In fact, I'm so excited about this game that I'd like to be spending more money on it than FFG seems able to support regarding the manufacture of plastic ships. You can see the market space on this booming with a variety of third party companies offering everything from plastic movement templates to custom-printed ship models.
I think one answer to all these issues lies is the campaign book. Talking with a friend about this over email, I came up with these basic ideas: It's the apogee of the New Order. The Alliance is on the run in the Outer Rim, trying to shore up support in systems like Mon Calamari. Meanwhile, Imperial leaders are only beginning to understand the conflict as a war rather than a police action. The book would consist of 20 or so linked missions such that the outcome of the preceding missions would affect the successive ones. This could be two-pronged. One prong could be branching narrative: If the Rebels win Mission 1, then play Mission 1A next; if the Imperials win, then play Mission 1B next. The other prong could be set-up focused: if the Rebels win Mission 8, successfully rescuing General Dodonna, then the Alliance player may use A-Wings in his lists for subsequent missions.
That would be the first campaign book, something very war-focused. Then I would have a second fringe-focused campaign where the two players take the role of a smuggler with a price on his head and a ruthless bounty hunter looking to bring him in. And of course, just like in the movies, this game of cat and mouse gets tangled up in larger issues of galactic politics. To me, these are the two iconic uses of space ships in the OT: (1) fighter planes in the war for freedom and (2) hot rods piloted by mercenaries and scoundrels. In fact, I would write the second campaign book so that it could optionally interweave with the first one. And of course I would sell repaints and/or POD cards to support these epic storylines!
So there you go, campaign books could (1) provide more mission concepts generally, for casual or competitive play, (2) shore up narrative-focused play for the many SW fans in it for the story, (3) support the existing model line, (4) create opportunity for campaign-specific repaint models, (5) create opportunity for new pilots and upgrades which could in turn be supported by the POD channel, and (6) generate product that minimizes the uncertainties of overseas miniatures production to sustain the line between model waves. The beauty about points (4) and (5) is that these would be totally optional from a consumer stand-point. If you want to play the mission with red X-Wings and A-Wings, you can do it. But if you're like me and you want three of everything then a green X-Wing and a blue A-Wing are awesome. And for those who don't want to buy repaints just to get cards, FFG could do them POD.
What do you guys think?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/09/17 22:20:37
o reiterate, I am saying the Empire as portrayed in the movies is a blunt, coarse, inhumane, irrational organization and the Empire as portrayed in the EU is more rational. Simple.
Probably motivated by the fact that the fact that Vader and Palpatine were dead after Endor. The guys that didn't want such a monolithic organization were left to their own devices after their force-choking leaders were gone. So the guys that wanted better pilot training and better ships started to get their way.
At least that's my opinion, to reconcile how all the Empire fan-service started giving them EU cool stuff.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
pts tyranids
???? pts Imperial Guard
750 points Grey Knight Inquisitors
2500 FleshTearers
2500 pts Space Wolfs
1500 pts Eldar
. Well played, fantasy flight! The temptation continues... not only that, but you'll have to buy these to get the appropriate components, rather than just painting a standard intercepter red.
