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 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
fair point, but of course it was dropped.

Perhaps he should have been shot to death. That would have made a story.

Depends where...


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 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Man Violates Rules, Gets Told to Leave

Dura lex, sed lex.

If you want to cherry-pick your kid's education in order to send them to overrated and overcosted institutions, then wipe out the cash and send them to private schools from the get go. But you're most likely wasting cash, your kids probably aren't that bright anyway.

That is pretty much the whole scam that is private schools.

Don't kid yourself. The grads from about five schools rule this country.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Man Violates Rules, Gets Told to Leave

Agreed. Arrest seems a bit much though.

Per the article, the arrest was not simply for being disruptive--but also for "assaulting a police officer".

I saw thevideo, the cop was shoving him around, he didn't do anything back.


http://video.foxnews.com/v/2686669803001/man-arrested-at-public-forum-for-questioning-common-core/

Oh I know private schools are good, but very often they make mediocre kids just a little bit less mediocre. Unless your kid is intelligent, dont waste of private school.

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't kid yourself. The grads from about five schools rule this country.

Which has no interest at all for someone interested in their field of study, in the vast majority of cases where that field isn't ''ruling the country''.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Oh I know private schools are good, but very often they make mediocre kids just a little bit less mediocre. Unless your kid is intelligent, dont waste of private school.

In many cases, sending them to a high performing private schools just ends up making mediocre kids in to complete and total feth ups, because the school's resources are dedicated to high performance, with little put to helping improve lower performing kids.

A friend of my Mum's is a fiercely intelligent lady, and her scholarship to one of the best local private schools set her up for a life of high academic achievement. Her son is also very bright, and also did very well when he attended that school. Her three daughters... well they're just not academic people. They went to the same school and did terribly - like all kids at that school they were put under tremendous pressure to achieve, and without any of the resources to help low achieving students that might be available elsewhere.

Later in life my Mum's friend completed her second masters, this time in educational studies, and focused a lot of her study on the best education for kids... coming to conclusion that it depends on your kids (a smart conclusion, albeit about 20 years too late for her own kids). That is, don't just think 'best school, highest standards = best for my kid", but really assess where your child is good, and where she struggles, and pick the school that best fits her abilities. It might be that a school with a modest academic scores, but excellent support services in helping modest performing students might be best for your kid.

Basically, the guy is right for challenging Common Core, because education doesn't need a set of broad standards assigned at the Federal level, but he's absolutely wrong in insisting what's needed instead is individual schools insisting on higher standards with no regard for the talents of the students involved. We aren't all Harvard smart, and many of us who are smart aren't smart in the Ivy League academic kind of way. What we need is a diverse range of schools that offer different options for different kinds of kids.

 LordofHats wrote:
On the one hand, I can appreciate a guy who demands better education standards. We need more of that. On the other hand an man who expects a school to prepare every student for Harvard is a loony.

As a shmuck who works in education, I feel I can give nothing more than my opinion, but here it is: Every other parent seems to have his ideas of how teachers or schools should be run, often without having worked there or studied there in a long time. School curriculum is a massive undertaking, and asking each and every teacher to come up with all of his material from scratch while only being given a header is insane. It might have worked well when only a small percentage of the population went to school, and (in Quebec anyway) we had almost nine years of post-elementary education before even being able to access university. And it usually meant you were going to join the priesthood in one form or the other.

The world is getting fuller and fuller, yet smaller and smaller, we need to have standards, especially when it comes to science. I'm a history and ethics teacher, what should I know, right? But when I subbed in a biology class and (due to our wonderful reform that transformed sex ed into a giant hot potato) most 15 year olds were convinced that the only way you could have a baby was if you did "it" while the girl was in her period.

The lower part of the article was interesting in that regard. I'll block out Mr. Small for a moment. The politicians seemed to be bent on making sure there was no state or country-wide system to teach and assess students' abilities? How can this be reconciled with maintaining an edge, scientifically and culturally?

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

As a shmuck who works in education, I feel I can give nothing more than my opinion, but here it is: Every other parent seems to have his ideas of how teachers or schools should be run, often without having worked there or studied there in a long time. School curriculum is a massive undertaking, and asking each and every teacher to come up with all of his material from scratch while only being given a header is insane. It might have worked well when only a small percentage of the population went to school, and (in Quebec anyway) we had almost nine years of post-elementary education before even being able to access university. And it usually meant you were going to join the priesthood in one form or the other.

Believe me I know. My mother fought a two year long battle against the school board (as a teacher) to keep them from making 'stupid decisions' concerning teachers and students. Now I hold no opinion over whether her way was the best way, but from what I heard it was one hell of a battlefield. A bunch of people with their own ideas about what is best and all kinds of craziness.

Education is hard, especially when you don't have enough teachers, enough money, and when parents ride your back about your job 24/7.

Relapse wrote:
I saw thevideo, the cop was shoving him around, he didn't do anything back.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2686669803001/man-arrested-at-public-forum-for-questioning-common-core/

That video is not working for me. Is it essentially the same as this one?

Hey a white man is trying to talk here!

The person filming it and yelling gives the impression that they are like a biological specimen of the potted variety.

Two points:

1) Free speech is never free. You can say whatever you like, but be prepared to face any consequences for saying what you say.

2) Getting 2 years of over-priced 4 year education out of the way at a far less expensive community college is definitely not a bad thing!

I didnt hear it, but what did he say about asians?
And it looks like he was in the wrong. rules are rules


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 TheMeanDM wrote:
Two points:

1) Free speech is never free. You can say whatever you like, but be prepared to face any consequences for saying what you say.

2) Getting 2 years of over-priced 4 year education out of the way at a far less expensive community college is definitely not a bad thing!

AMEN, while im in my 4th(and final) year of community college, I hade to take several remedial classes, I have paid a total of........20$ in tuition.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Two points:

1) Free speech is never free. You can say whatever you like, but be prepared to face any consequences for saying what you say.

Free speach means that there are no consequences from government. That is, you can't be fined or imprisoned just for saying something. You can be excluded by private parties because your opinion signaled you were stupid and/or a jerk, or even possibly because you were 100% right and other idiots/jerks didn't like hearing you point that out... but there can't be government consequences.

Of course, there are limits to that - and one of those limits is in places meant for a certain form of speach, like a public forum, you don't get to just shout your questions out because you don't like the format of the meeting.

 Ouze wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I saw thevideo, the cop was shoving him around, he didn't do anything back.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2686669803001/man-arrested-at-public-forum-for-questioning-common-core/

That video is not working for me. Is it essentially the same as this one?

That's the one.

 Ouze wrote:
Indeed, I was about to post asking if you know more than has been posted so far. I think it's totally plausible he had a legitimate grievance initially and then "decided to keep it real" and then Keeping it Real Went Wrong.
I.e. they could all be jerks. So do you know more or are you speculating?

Fair enough question.
No I do not no more than first glance.

The system or way the forum was set up was ideal for abuse where I have seen something similar used to control a meeting to the organizer's agenda to appear "fair".

They may have stumbled on this completely innocently so it would only appear naïve because it would call the method or ethics of the meeting in question: transparency cannot be verified.

The presence and quick use of security at least points to them considering that disgruntled and "out of turn" audience members will need to be dealt with.

It seems too well planned to be just an unhappy coincidence.

 Ouze wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I saw thevideo, the cop was shoving him around, he didn't do anything back.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2686669803001/man-arrested-at-public-forum-for-questioning-common-core/

That video is not working for me. Is it essentially the same as this one?

Now my question there is was that Officer on duty as a Police Officer, or was he being employed as Security? He was not wearing a Police uniform, just a polo shirt that said 'Security' but he got in the speaker's face and pulled out a badge.
I did not see anything in that video that resembled assault by the speaker, although there may be questions raised concerning the use of force by the Officer (getting in the speaker's face and the pushing could be seen as escalation, rather than defusing a situation).

 LordofHats wrote:

Education is hard, especially when you don't have enough teachers, enough money, and when parents ride your back about your job 24/7.

And when a significant portion of society is constantly being told that you are a lazy moocher just coasting your way to a fat retirement pension.

 Easy E wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Education is hard, especially when you don't have enough teachers, enough money, and when parents ride your back about your job 24/7.

And when a significant portion of society is constantly being told that you are a lazy moocher just coasting your way to a fat retirement pension.

People really call teachers lazy moochers? Damn

Yup, Teachers are considered scum in parents eyes.

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Education is hard, especially when you don't have enough teachers, enough money, and when parents ride your back about your job 24/7.

And when a significant portion of society is constantly being told that you are a lazy moocher just coasting your way to a fat retirement pension.

People really call teachers lazy moochers? Damn

You been living under a rock, man? The far-right loathes all public-sector workers with a passion, but teachers get a special amount of hate. Probably because they infect the children with lies about sex, science, and history. Masturbation destroys nerve endings! The earth is 6,000 years old! 'Nam was a just war!

'Murica!

~Tim?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Education is hard, especially when you don't have enough teachers, enough money, and when parents ride your back about your job 24/7.

And when a significant portion of society is constantly being told that you are a lazy moocher just coasting your way to a fat retirement pension.

People really call teachers lazy moochers? Damn

You been living under a rock, man? The far-right loathes all public-sector workers with a passion, but teachers get a special amount of hate. Probably because they infect the children with lies about sex, science, and history. Masturbation destroys nerve endings! The earth is 6,000 years old! 'Nam was a just war!

'Murica!

~Tim?

I have no doubt it's true that they think that now that I've heard it, just didn't know that that was a thing

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

Education is hard, especially when you don't have enough teachers, enough money, and when parents ride your back about your job 24/7.

And when a significant portion of society is constantly being told that you are a lazy moocher just coasting your way to a fat retirement pension.

People really call teachers lazy moochers? Damn

You been living under a rock, man? The far-right loathes all public-sector workers with a passion, but teachers get a special amount of hate. Probably because they infect the children with lies about sex, science, and history. Masturbation destroys nerve endings! The earth is 6,000 years old! 'Nam was a just war!

'Murica!

~Tim?

I have no doubt it's true that they think that now that I've heard it, just didn't know that that was a thing

Worst of all, the fat retirment pension isn't even that great!

 sebster wrote:

Basically, the guy is right for challenging Common Core, because education doesn't need a set of broad standards assigned at the Federal level, but he's absolutely wrong in insisting what's needed instead is individual schools insisting on higher standards with no regard for the talents of the students involved. We aren't all Harvard smart, and many of us who are smart aren't smart in the Ivy League academic kind of way. What we need is a diverse range of schools that offer different options for different kinds of kids.

Seb and I don't agree that often, but man, I couldn't agree more with this statment.

The real failing, IMO, of the American Education system is the continued forcing of the myth that every student is equal and everyone should go to college. Its willful ignorance that, when you start talking about kids going to college that perhaps would be better served learning a trade, borders on criminal misleading.

If I had one wish for education in the United States, it would be that we could adopt a system that accepted that some kids aren't made for college and put more value in our trade schools instead of treating them as dumping grounds for burnouts.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Oh I know private schools are good, but very often they make mediocre kids just a little bit less mediocre. Unless your kid is intelligent, dont waste of private school.

Would be more jealousy speaking.

We wish we could teach our own kids but cannot since we need to earn an income and pay the taxes for their wages..

They have excellent working hours.
The summer time off is fantastic plus PA days (but they ARE working days).
The pension is the best in the country (in Canada at least).

The main drawbacks are dealing with everyone's "little darlings" and their parents.

Funny with the video, the security/police officer DID identify himself as such so forcing him to push the man repeatedly to get going is resisting the officer but he was not in the process of being arrested so this seems a bit of abuse of power.
Well done to hold the meeting at the school because then they can eject him or say he is "trespassing" if they want him to leave and if he refuses he can be charged.

The guy's main failing was not making his point quickly and let hang in the air, he was too interested in hearing his own voice to give his "crusade" sufficient air time.

As far as private K-12 goes: High achieving kids are going to be high achieving no matter where they are. In actuality, they probably have the opportunity to take a more diverse classload at a good public High School than at a private school.

I think Private schools can provide better learning environments because there's actual accountability for the student and parent there, but in regards to better education, at the K-12 level I'm not so sure...


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 Talizvar wrote:


They have excellent working hours.

I dunno... I think the usual 7am-8pm she's working on school stuff, my wife would beg to differ.

The main drawbacks are dealing with everyone's "little darlings" and their parents.

Or trying to figure out how you're supposed to engage the kid whose family got evicted from their apartment the previous night....

Or trying to figure out how to teach your Vietnamese immigrant that doesn't speak English and only gets 4 hours a week in ESL support....

Or trying to figure out how to reengage a class of terrified 10 year olds when one of their classmates has a mental break and starts hitting his head on the desk violently, only you're not allowed to restrain him because you'd be held accountable if he hurt himself while you were restraining him....

Or trying dealing with administrators that need their graduation rates to be high enough to receive state funding that they need you to pass a kid that is addicted to heroin and has been to class 6 times....

Or trying to figure out what to do with that 17 year old heroin addict....

Or trying to counsel a classroom full of teenagers that just lost a friend in a drunk driving accident.....

These are real experiences just from my wife and I, from middle to high achieving public schools. So please, don't reduce the things a teacher has to deal with on any given day to "dealing with their little darlings." It's pretty insulting.

 gorgon wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Oh I know private schools are good, but very often they make mediocre kids just a little bit less mediocre. Unless your kid is intelligent, dont waste of private school.

We are kidding ourselves if we think G.W. Bush wasnt a genius. He got the country to vote for him twice.

 cincydooley wrote:
These are real experiences just from my wife and I, from middle to high achieving public schools. So please, don't reduce the things a teacher has to deal with on any given day to "dealing with their little darlings." It's pretty insulting.

I can draw a huge list of all the fun things that happen at my workplace as well.
Losing body parts, near death experiences, people having a mental break at work (possibly the parent that got evicted), people more than happy to engage in fisti-cuffs, a manager telling a whole plant he will fire us all and hire trained monkeys... bad stuff happens to us all and NO I am not specifically making light of what your wife witnesses, I am speaking of the day to day work you sign up for.

YES, unfortunate things happen, YES, families have their challenges that affect the children the most.

People deal with this, with little complaint, because no-one should face these issues alone a person does not begrudge doing this, if they have empathy.

It is when people make trouble for the sake of it (a bit like now) or just out of pettiness, making a mountain out of a mole-hill (a bit like now) that can make you bitter.
When they tell you their "little darling" is not getting enough attention, when you just saw a kid ruin his face on a desk that day is a fine example of what I meant.

Find insult where you will, there was no intent and I have couple friends that are teachers to know the occasional horror stories: we all have them.

Use some perspective.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Oh I know private schools are good, but very often they make mediocre kids just a little bit less mediocre. Unless your kid is intelligent, dont waste of private school.

We are kidding ourselves if we think G.W. Bush wasnt a genius. He got the country to vote for him twice.

It's not like the American public is that hard to dupe.

~Tim?

 cincydooley wrote:

 sebster wrote:

Basically, the guy is right for challenging Common Core, because education doesn't need a set of broad standards assigned at the Federal level, but he's absolutely wrong in insisting what's needed instead is individual schools insisting on higher standards with no regard for the talents of the students involved. We aren't all Harvard smart, and many of us who are smart aren't smart in the Ivy League academic kind of way. What we need is a diverse range of schools that offer different options for different kinds of kids.

Seb and I don't agree that often, but man, I couldn't agree more with this statment.

The real failing, IMO, of the American Education system is the continued forcing of the myth that every student is equal and everyone should go to college. Its willful ignorance that, when you start talking about kids going to college that perhaps would be better served learning a trade, borders on criminal misleading.

If I had one wish for education in the United States, it would be that we could adopt a system that accepted that some kids aren't made for college and put more value in our trade schools instead of treating them as dumping grounds for burnouts.

Amen.

For some reason, I was an honors/AP (mainly in English/Literature) student in high school and several of the teachers I was close to were utterly baffled by my decision to forgo college and go to trade school to be a steamfitter instead. No matter what any of them told me, I knew I wasn't cut out for college and I had no desire to go. I loathed school and everything about it and the thought of having to go to school full time just gave me a bad taste in my mouth. I came from a blue-collar family (on my mom and dad's side no less) so I knew that you can be successful without a college education.

A few years ago, after I became an instructor at my apprenticeship school, I got in contact with a man the works for Loudoun County Public Schools (where I live in Virginia) who wanted to set up an "Apprenticeship Night" at a local high school where myself and representatives from other trades could get the opportunity come and talk about what our trades can offer to young people. So far it's been very successful in getting the message across to some of these young people (and best of all, their parents!) that there are more options than college out there.

And Scooty, I'd wager you didn't finish your apprenticeship with crippling levels of student loan debt, yes?