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A comprehensive review of 6th edition Codex Space Marines (with focus on Black Templars CT)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





 Sir Arun wrote:
Stormtalon added. What do you guys think of it? What is your preferred choice of weaponry?


Skyhammer Missiles for HP attrition on AV10-12. Lascannon is you feel you need to attempt to kill higher armored targets.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

Is there a reason to use jump pack Templars, either assault or Vanguard?
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





Vanguard allows you to take as many power weapons as you like, plus you don't need a transport. They can also be given stormshields to absorb low AP fire, although a combination of both will make them costlier than Hammernators without the bonus of having 2+ armor. On the other hand, a skilled opponent can keep his forces away from Hammernators after they deep strike due to them only being able to move 10" average (crusader run included), while it'll be a lot more difficult for him to do so with Vanguard vets and their average 16" movement. Unlike the Hammernators, they also have re-rollable charge range and can sweeping advance and both have the same inv. save, so really you're looking at a 2+ save or more movement, better chance of a successful charge and sweeping advance for 2 more points per model (if you kit them out with power axes). Unlike the Hammernators, they also have frak and krak grenades.

Personally, I take a largish Vanguard vet squad (7 men) and kit the sarge out with a powerfist (so he can insta-kill T4 characters in challenges) and since taking this doesnt grant him +1A for 2ccws, I replace the boltpistol with a stormshield which is also direly needed as he needs to weather attacks before he gets to strike. Then I "hide" two Power Axes amidst my squad that cant be challenged and those marines get +1A for 2ccws, so they have 3 base attacks each, 4 on charge, and you're looking at 11 AP2 attacks coming from this squad on charge.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/06 21:57:49


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

How significant is the 5 man heavy & special weapons squad?
Besides plasma, none of the specials match up well with the heavies and all of the heavies besides multi melta have longer range.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 minigun762 wrote:
How significant is the 5 man heavy & special weapons squad?
Besides plasma, none of the specials match up well with the heavies and all of the heavies besides multi melta have longer range.


Meltagun/multimelta 5-man squads in Rhinoes are only 125 points a pop (135 for plasma/plasma). The double-melta bunker was a decent choice in our old Codex, now it's cheaper. We can go Multi-melta/meltagun/combi-melta in Drop Pods as well for "ghetto Sternguard" troops.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

I don't see how the multi melta and melta gun are supposed to work together. The range gap along with the assault vs heavy weapon seems like it would be very hard to fully utilize both.
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





Well look at it this way:

There's the Plasmagun / Plasmacannon combo

then you have the Plasmagun / Lascannon combo

And if you know you'll be facing nids, you can either take a Flamer / Heavy Bolter combo

or a Flamer / Missile Launcher combo

and if you know you'll be facing an MEQ mech rush list, the Multi Melta / Grav Gun will find its place too.

And to all of the options above, you can add a sarge with a combi-weapon of your choice. The combi-melta works great for a squad riding in a rhino so they take a shot at popping a tank, the combi-flamer is generally useful if you come in close proximity to an enemy squad, and the combi-plasma is great if you are close to an enemy MC or terminator unit.

Now imagine a unit of tactical terminators deep strikes next to such a minimalist 5 man squad and then finds themselves the target of a Plasma Cannon, a Grav Gun and the sarge's rapid-fire combi-Plasma

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/10/08 20:21:46


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

 Sir Arun wrote:
Well look at it this way:

There's the Plasmagun / Plasmacannon combo

then you have the Plasmagun / Lascannon combo

And if you know you'll be facing nids, you can either take a Flamer / Heavy Bolter combo

or a Flamer / Missile Launcher combo

and if you know you'll be facing an MEQ mech rush list, the Multi Melta / Grav Gun will find its place too.

And to all of the options above, you can add a sarge with a combi-weapon of your choice. The combi-melta works great for a squad riding in a rhino so they take a shot at popping a tank, the combi-flamer is generally useful if you come in close proximity to an enemy squad, and the combi-plasma is great if you are close to an enemy MC or terminator unit.

Now imagine a unit of tactical terminators deep strikes next to such a minimalist 5 man squad and then finds themselves the target of a Plasma Cannon, a Grav Gun and the sarge's rapid-fire combi-Plasma



A) That's list tailoring and both questionable and impossible at tournament level
B) An idiot deepstriking a squad of 5 Tactical Terminators next to an AP2 dispenser is extremely circumstantial.
C) A Bike Squad with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav has 9-6 AP2 shots, TL bolters and all the benefits of bikes at 103 points, gun-team Crusaders simply do not compare unless you use circumstantial points efficiency (for units killing them) arguments which lead nowhere or need scoring.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/08 21:26:33


 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





...except bikes aren't scoring.

Unless you give your commander a 20 point piece of equipment that then bars you from deepstriking him with some termies or assaulting out of a land raider or deepstriking with an assault marine / vanguard vet squad and also forces you to take 2 more bikes without special weapons to make your 3 bike unit scoring.

And commanders on bikes usually need a command squad on bike as well, which all adds up in points.

I'm not arguing that grav gun bike squads are awesome. I'm merely saying that BT 5 man marine squads are superior to vanilla marine 5 man marine squads, as I'll take a special weapon to accompany a heavy weapon (or heavy weapon/ power weapon to accompany a special weapon) over 6+ FNP or a scout move or re-rolling 1s on their bolters or a twin-linked flamer anyday.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/08 22:16:38


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Mr.Omega wrote:

C) A Bike Squad with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav has 9-6 AP2 shots, TL bolters and all the benefits of bikes at 103 points, gun-team Crusaders simply do not compare unless you use circumstantial points efficiency (for units killing them) arguments which lead nowhere or need scoring.


And, as all lists need scoring, they have a place. What's the issue?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot







Flakk missiles are Str 7.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say




WI

5 man Las-plas for the win! That alone almost makes me want to play with the BT chapter Tactics.


Been playing 40k on and off since 89.
Armies...
Orks, Eldar, Lamentors, Pre-Heresy EC, CSM EC, and IG.  
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

 BlkTom wrote:
5 man Las-plas for the win! That alone almost makes me want to play with the BT chapter Tactics.



That's so sad that that is the pull for BT.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 minigun762 wrote:
 BlkTom wrote:
5 man Las-plas for the win! That alone almost makes me want to play with the BT chapter Tactics.



That's so sad that that is the pull for BT.


And people wonder why us BT players are disgruntled with the new Codex...

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder




Cleveland, Ohio, USA

Chapter Tactics for Black Templars: Crusader Squads firing Boltguns can assault in the same turn.

I can dream.

They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 minigun762 wrote:
 BlkTom wrote:
5 man Las-plas for the win! That alone almost makes me want to play with the BT chapter Tactics.



That's so sad that that is the pull for BT.


And people wonder why us BT players are disgruntled with the new Codex...


Considering 5th edition BT's draw was Tank Hunter 2X CML terminators with other various shooting options like tank hunter dreads, it's not exactly unusual anymore since 4th.
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





Games Workshop gave us all the new weapon profiles that 5th edition Codex SM got in an FAQ. If they hadn't, and we had to use our old stuff from the codex, our army wouldnt be great at all.

So people moaning that BTs in the new SM codex are a shadow of what they once were, are actually referring to a combination of old 4th ed codex BT + 5th ed SM armory FAQ as "their" army.

And then of course you have the ridiculous guys who cry about 6th ed tankhunters gone, well tankhunters in 6th ed is ridiculously overpowered compared to tankhunters in 5th ed (earlier it used to be +1 on damage pen, now it's re-rolls....5 termies with 2 CMLs firing 4 S8 krak missiles that re-roll armor pens is really broken)


However on the other hand terminators are so bland and boring now that I see no incentive to take them. Sure, 2+ save guys are tougher in cc than they used to be in 5th where every power weapon could eat them up, but thats pretty much the only improvement they've received.

And the fact that Hammernators are 5 points costlier now per model (aka GW realized nobody will take lightning claw termies over Hammernators anymore) also makes them less lucrative.

And I heard Dark Angels lost their ability to mix and match cc and ranged termies, so there's that.

And GK termies with force halberds also got nerfed in that they can no longer even scratch other termies, so they have to take hammers, but dont get shields...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/09 21:27:29


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

Are people using full sized bolter Crusaders or Tac Squads?
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Anything that brings more assault back to the meta is a GREAT thing.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Looking forward to trying out an old-school 14-man blob + CM + Chaplain in LRC for lolz.
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

 Sir Arun wrote:
And the fact that Hammernators are 5 points costlier now per model (aka GW realized nobody will take lightning claw termies over Hammernators anymore) also makes them less lucrative.

Umm yeah they're technically less lucrative, but they're still godly amazing at that price (not to mention that BA and DA pay the same for TH/SS upgrades, and no one hears them complain that they're useless now). Obviously the old BT Codex was written at a time when SS only gave a 4++ in close combat too, so they were priced for that at the time and then given a free mega-buffing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 02:01:35


Never doubt yourself. Only let it make you stronger... Unless you're the PDF. In which case, you'll be killed to a man.

Andilus Greatsword's Great Company - ~10,000pts Hive Fleet Maliades - ~8500pts Raven Sword - ~3000pts Sisters of Battle - ~1800pts Barloq's Temple City - ~4000pts 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Isle of Man

Sword Brethren aren't dead...
...They just use the Command Squad / Honour Guard entry.
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

 grendel083 wrote:
Sword Brethren aren't dead...
...They just use the Command Squad / Honour Guard entry.


Or Sternguard or Vanguard.
   
Made in us
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say




WI

I had to talk my BT friend down from the roof tops when he heard they were getting rolled into the Vannilla Codex. I played against BT a lot and thought the Vow that gave you +1 Str but lower Init was awesome... didn't know why he never used it... I told him to powerfist it up, where the Init didn't matter.

He later did a YouTube vid on his impressions, but to be honest, I really only saw him losing 2 heavy weapons in a 5 man Terminator squad (Yeah, 2x CMLs, of course). I still think BT gained a lot more than they lost and, as much as you guys pound on me for it, a 5 man squad with a special AND heavy is really sweet coming from a traditional vanilla codex player.

Yeah, fluff of stuff is gone, but what really is fluff? I make my own damn fluff... play Lamentors and feel GW dump on you every edition, least you guys got a Codex. Sure, we can't make a HQ super special, but not a lot of codexes can. It is a balance aspect and I as a gamer have to accept that. I for one am glad I don't have to take a suck-tastic HQ to actually play my list, like in 5th. Now you can play a White Scars or Salamanders without taking Vulcan or the Khan. To me, that is a win. You should see it as a win as well. All I heard about was 'I /have/ to take a EC!' Well now you don't! You don't need a single named guy to play BT, and that is a good thing!

Been playing 40k on and off since 89.
Armies...
Orks, Eldar, Lamentors, Pre-Heresy EC, CSM EC, and IG.  
   
Made in gb
Gangly Grot Rebel



Scotland

Great review Sir Arun, keep it up mate.

I'm a god damned sexual Tyrannosaurus.
 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





Yeah I have to admit the 140 point relief on higher point armylists really comes in handy. It also keeps an HQ slot open for allied detachments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 10:48:26


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 BlkTom wrote:
I make my own damn fluff... play Lamentors and feel GW dump on you every edition, least you guys got a Codex.


You have an interesting definition of "getting a Codex".

The issue with the new Codex (and I've said this already, but whatever) isn't that it's bad, it's that the melee potential went DOWN with the loss of Rage, Righteous Zeal and non-gakky Chaplains. Sure, shooting builds are better, but if I wanted to play a shooty Marine Codex I'd not have chosen Templars in the first place.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





You forgot we lost Fearless in cc too :p

But what I think is that the old BT codex only allowed for a handful of competetive builds and many BT armies looked the same, while under the new codex we can add a lot of variety to our builds. E.g. in the old codex capturing objectives was a waste of marine potential as I'd rather have my guys killing stuff than driving to an uncontested objective and then sitting there.

In the new dex, I can dedicate 100 points to have a Land Speeder Storm with 5 Neophytes zoom around claiming objectives while my initiates can put their cc-power to use by engaging enemies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 14:51:49


2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

But your Initiates will still be slower into CC and have less attacks on the charge. If you're running a Chaplain you also won't have him be nearly as good as before.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

Being positive, a universal 5+ DtW is pretty cool.
   
 
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