A comprehensive review of 6th edition Codex Space Marines (with focus on Black Templars CT)

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**Coyote81**

Sir Arun wrote:
Stormtalon added. What do you guys think of it? What is your preferred choice of weaponry?

Skyhammer Missiles for HP attrition on AV10-12. Lascannon is you feel you need to attempt to kill higher armored targets.

**minigun762**

Is there a reason to use jump pack Templars, either assault or Vanguard?

**Sir Arun**

Vanguard allows you to take as many power weapons as you like, plus you don't need a transport. They can also be given stormshields to absorb low AP fire, although a combination of both will make them costlier than Hammernators without the bonus of having 2+ armor. On the other hand, a skilled opponent can keep his forces away from Hammernators after they deep strike due to them only being able to move 10" average (crusader run included), while it'll be a lot more difficult for him to do so with Vanguard vets and their average 16" movement. Unlike the Hammernators, they also have re-rollable charge range and can sweeping advance and both have the same inv. save, so really you're looking at a 2+ save or more movement, better chance of a successful charge and sweeping advance for 2 more points per model (if you kit them out with power axes). Unlike the Hammernators, they also have frak and krak grenades.

Personally, I take a largish Vanguard vet squad (7 men) and kit the sarge out with a powerfist (so he can insta-kill T4 characters in challenges) and since taking this doesnt grant him +1A for 2ccws, I replace the boltpistol with a stormshield which is also direly needed as he needs to weather attacks before he gets to strike. Then I "hide" two Power Axes amidst my squad that cant be challenged and those marines get +1A for 2ccws, so they have 3 base attacks each, 4 on charge, and you're looking at 11 AP2 attacks coming from this squad on charge.

**minigun762**

How significant is the 5 man heavy & special weapons squad?
Besides plasma, none of the specials match up well with the heavies and all of the heavies besides multi melta have longer range.

**AlmightyWalrus**

minigun762 wrote:
How significant is the 5 man heavy & special weapons squad?
Besides plasma, none of the specials match up well with the heavies and all of the heavies besides multi melta have longer range.

Meltagun/multimelta 5-man squads in Rhinoes are only 125 points a pop (135 for plasma/plasma). The double-melta bunker was a decent choice in our old Codex, now it's cheaper. We can go Multi-melta/meltagun/combi-melta in Drop Pods as well for "ghetto Sternguard" troops.

**minigun762**

I don't see how the multi melta and melta gun are supposed to work together. The range gap along with the assault vs heavy weapon seems like it would be very hard to fully utilize both.

**Sir Arun**

Well look at it this way:

There's the Plasmagun / Plasmacannon combo

then you have the Plasmagun / Lascannon combo

And if you know you'll be facing nids, you can either take a Flamer / Heavy Bolter combo

or a Flamer / Missile Launcher combo

and if you know you'll be facing an MEQ mech rush list, the Multi Melta / Grav Gun will find its place too.

And to all of the options above, you can add a sarge with a combi-weapon of your choice. The combi-melta works great for a squad riding in a rhino so they take a shot at popping a tank, the combi-flamer is generally useful if you come in close proximity to an enemy squad, and the combi-plasma is great if you are close to an enemy MC or terminator unit.

Now imagine a unit of tactical terminators deep strikes next to such a minimalist 5 man squad and then finds themselves the target of a Plasma Cannon, a Grav Gun and the sarge's rapid-fire combi-Plasma

**Mr.Omega**

Sir Arun wrote:
Well look at it this way:

There's the Plasmagun / Plasmacannon combo

then you have the Plasmagun / Lascannon combo

And if you know you'll be facing nids, you can either take a Flamer / Heavy Bolter combo

or a Flamer / Missile Launcher combo

and if you know you'll be facing an MEQ mech rush list, the Multi Melta / Grav Gun will find its place too.

And to all of the options above, you can add a sarge with a combi-weapon of your choice. The combi-melta works great for a squad riding in a rhino so they take a shot at popping a tank, the combi-flamer is generally useful if you come in close proximity to an enemy squad, and the combi-plasma is great if you are close to an enemy MC or terminator unit.

Now imagine a unit of tactical terminators deep strikes next to such a minimalist 5 man squad and then finds themselves the target of a Plasma Cannon, a Grav Gun and the sarge's rapid-fire combi-Plasma

A) That's list tailoring and both questionable and impossible at tournament level
B) An idiot deepstriking a squad of 5 Tactical Terminators next to an AP2 dispenser is extremely circumstantial.
C) A Bike Squad with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav has 9-6 AP2 shots, TL bolters and all the benefits of bikes at 103 points, gun-team Crusaders simply do not compare unless you use circumstantial points efficiency (for units killing them) arguments which lead nowhere or need scoring.

**Sir Arun**

...except bikes aren't scoring.

Unless you give your commander a 20 point piece of equipment that then bars you from deepstriking him with some termies or assaulting out of a land raider or deepstriking with an assault marine / vanguard vet squad and also forces you to take 2 more bikes without special weapons to make your 3 bike unit scoring.

And commanders on bikes usually need a command squad on bike as well, which all adds up in points.

I'm not arguing that grav gun bike squads are awesome. I'm merely saying that BT 5 man marine squads are superior to vanilla marine 5 man marine squads, as I'll take a special weapon to accompany a heavy weapon (or heavy weapon/ power weapon to accompany a special weapon) over 6+ FNP or a scout move or re-rolling 1s on their bolters or a twin-linked flamer anyday.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Mr.Omega wrote:

C) A Bike Squad with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav has 9-6 AP2 shots, TL bolters and all the benefits of bikes at 103 points, gun-team Crusaders simply do not compare unless you use circumstantial points efficiency (for units killing them) arguments which lead nowhere or need scoring.

And, as all lists need scoring, they have a place. What's the issue?

**General Hobbs**

Flakk missiles are Str 7.

**BlkTom**

5 man Las-plas for the win! That alone almost makes me want to play with the BT chapter Tactics.

**minigun762**

BlkTom wrote:
5 man Las-plas for the win! That alone almost makes me want to play with the BT chapter Tactics.

That's so sad that that is the pull for BT.

**AlmightyWalrus**

minigun762 wrote:
BlkTom wrote:
5 man Las-plas for the win! That alone almost makes me want to play with the BT chapter Tactics.

That's so sad that that is the pull for BT.

And people wonder why us BT players are disgruntled with the new Codex...

**obsidiankatana**

Chapter Tactics for Black Templars: Crusader Squads firing Boltguns can assault in the same turn.

I can dream.

**ZebioLizard2**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
minigun762 wrote:
BlkTom wrote:
5 man Las-plas for the win! That alone almost makes me want to play with the BT chapter Tactics.

That's so sad that that is the pull for BT.

And people wonder why us BT players are disgruntled with the new Codex...

Considering 5th edition BT's draw was Tank Hunter 2X CML terminators with other various shooting options like tank hunter dreads, it's not exactly unusual anymore since 4th.

**Sir Arun**

Games Workshop gave us all the new weapon profiles that 5th edition Codex SM got in an FAQ. If they hadn't, and we had to use our old stuff from the codex, our army wouldnt be great at all.

So people moaning that BTs in the new SM codex are a shadow of what they once were, are actually referring to a combination of old 4th ed codex BT + 5th ed SM armory FAQ as "their" army.

And then of course you have the ridiculous guys who cry about 6th ed tankhunters gone, well tankhunters in 6th ed is ridiculously overpowered compared to tankhunters in 5th ed (earlier it used to be +1 on damage pen, now it's re-rolls....5 termies with 2 CMLs firing 4 S8 krak missiles that re-roll armor pens is really broken)

However on the other hand terminators are so bland and boring now that I see no incentive to take them. Sure, 2+ save guys are tougher in cc than they used to be in 5th where every power weapon could eat them up, but thats pretty much the only improvement they've received.

And the fact that Hammernators are 5 points costlier now per model (aka GW realized nobody will take lightning claw termies over Hammernators anymore) also makes them less lucrative.

And I heard Dark Angels lost their ability to mix and match cc and ranged termies, so there's that.

And GK termies with force halberds also got nerfed in that they can no longer even scratch other termies, so they have to take hammers, but dont get shields...

**minigun762**

Are people using full sized bolter Crusaders or Tac Squads?

**Jancoran**

Anything that brings more assault back to the meta is a GREAT thing.

**phoenix darkus**

Looking forward to trying out an old-school 14-man blob + CM + Chaplain in LRC for lolz.

**Andilus Greatsword**

Sir Arun wrote:
And the fact that Hammernators are 5 points costlier now per model (aka GW realized nobody will take lightning claw termies over Hammernators anymore) also makes them less lucrative.

Umm yeah they're technically less lucrative, but they're still godly amazing at that price (not to mention that BA and DA pay the same for TH/SS upgrades, and no one hears them complain that they're useless now). Obviously the old BT Codex was written at a time when SS only gave a 4++ in close combat too, so they were priced for that at the time and then given a free mega-buffing.

**grendel083**

Sword Brethren aren't dead...
...They just use the Command Squad / Honour Guard entry.

**minigun762**

grendel083 wrote:
Sword Brethren aren't dead...
...They just use the Command Squad / Honour Guard entry.

Or Sternguard or Vanguard.

**BlkTom**

I had to talk my BT friend down from the roof tops when he heard they were getting rolled into the Vannilla Codex. I played against BT a lot and thought the Vow that gave you +1 Str but lower Init was awesome... didn't know why he never used it... I told him to powerfist it up, where the Init didn't matter.

He later did a YouTube vid on his impressions, but to be honest, I really only saw him losing 2 heavy weapons in a 5 man Terminator squad (Yeah, 2x CMLs, of course). I still think BT gained a lot more than they lost and, as much as you guys pound on me for it, a 5 man squad with a special AND heavy is really sweet coming from a traditional vanilla codex player.

Yeah, fluff of stuff is gone, but what really is fluff? I make my own damn fluff... play Lamentors and feel GW dump on you every edition, least you guys got a Codex. Sure, we can't make a HQ super special, but not a lot of codexes can. It is a balance aspect and I as a gamer have to accept that. I for one am glad I don't have to take a suck-tastic HQ to actually play my list, like in 5th. Now you can play a White Scars or Salamanders without taking Vulcan or the Khan. To me, that is a win. You should see it as a win as well. All I heard about was 'I /have/ to take a EC!' Well now you don't! You don't need a single named guy to play BT, and that is a good thing!

**jamin484**

Great review Sir Arun, keep it up mate.

**Sir Arun**

Yeah I have to admit the 140 point relief on higher point armylists really comes in handy. It also keeps an HQ slot open for allied detachments.

**AlmightyWalrus**

BlkTom wrote:
I make my own damn fluff... play Lamentors and feel GW dump on you every edition, least you guys got a Codex.

You have an interesting definition of "getting a Codex".

The issue with the new Codex (and I've said this already, but whatever) isn't that it's bad, it's that the melee potential went DOWN with the loss of Rage, Righteous Zeal and non-gakky Chaplains. Sure, shooting builds are better, but if I wanted to play a shooty Marine Codex I'd not have chosen Templars in the first place.

**Sir Arun**

You forgot we lost Fearless in cc too :p

But what I think is that the old BT codex only allowed for a handful of competetive builds and many BT armies looked the same, while under the new codex we can add a lot of variety to our builds. E.g. in the old codex capturing objectives was a waste of marine potential as I'd rather have my guys killing stuff than driving to an uncontested objective and then sitting there.

In the new dex, I can dedicate 100 points to have a Land Speeder Storm with 5 Neophytes zoom around claiming objectives while my initiates can put their cc-power to use by engaging enemies.

**AlmightyWalrus**

But your Initiates will still be slower into CC and have less attacks on the charge. If you're running a Chaplain you also won't have him be nearly as good as before.

**minigun762**

Being positive, a universal 5+ DtW is pretty cool.