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People go with ward saves over 2+ armor, because you can often get 2+ (or better) armor, without spending any points on magic gear.

While the armor save may often be better, I'll spend normal points for my armor save, and magic points for my ward.
The armies where you have to choose one or the other are few.
Dark Elf assassins are a good example. You can get the 2+ armor or the 4+ ward, but can't get both. In that case, either option isn't likely to keep the assassin alive, so I'm more inclined to just send him in naked to keep him cheap.

-Matt

Warpsolution wrote:
Sure, S5 gives you a -2 to armour. Which, yes, negates some armour. But not all of it.

It's a better deal in most situations.

To an extent. But I think "an upgrade should be an upgrade" is a tough line of logic to counter.

-2 to armor probably counters at least 50% of the armor saves in the entire game. Only characters and elites are generally higher.

It's a big disingenuous to say it's better in most situations. It's not like the world of WHFB lines up to attack characters single file. Players see a character there and are going to assume he's got some protection. They are going to use stuff that can possibly hurt a character. I.e., each type of unit faces certain enemies. War machines rarely fight fodder because fodder never reaches them. So their resistance to fodder doesn't matter that much. What is going to be sent up against some combat char isn't likely to be wussy fodder, unless you're just trying to hold him there. If another combat character faces you, you're likely going to want the ward.

Not all upgrades are pure 100% upgrades. Adding GW takes away shields, gives you ASL. Adding spears might let you fight in another row, but it increases your cost ratio without giving you any extra protection. Buying a gun for a unit doesn't matter much if you don't shoot it and the AHW might not be worth the point increase. "Upgrades" are generally a way of further specializing units. Not just making them all-around better. Though some are pretty damn close.

@HawaiiMatt: 2+ armour is just one of the ways to protect your character that I'm talking about. Penalties to hit, re-rolling armour saves/rolls to Hit or Wound. They don't cover as many situations, but they're usually better in the ones they do.

@DukeRustfield: I'm talking about characters, because that's what you were talking about before: all characters take Ward saves, etc. Units with Ward saves don't have much say in how they get them.
I'm not talking about characters versus fodder, either. I'm talking about characters versus S4, 5, and 6 attacks. Sure, you'll try to send your combat Lord against my lvl4 Wizard or my BSB. But your Lord probably doesn't have an Obsidian Blade. In my experience, he's probably packing something to boost his Strength and/or Attacks, or just a mundane halberd or great weapon.

And as far as upgrades go, I'm simply referring back to the issue with Flaming Attacks. The benefits they offer are usually smaller than the potential drawbacks. And even if they were more or less equal, I'd still question the logic of making me pay extra for them.

I like the idea of some stuff that negates Wards, or drawbacks to certain bonuses. But if I'm paying extra for something, it should lead to more beneficial situations than negative ones.

How on earth would armor or regen sometimes being better than ward be more negative than positive? S4/5/6 attacks you're almost always going to want a ward. Because you get to mix in Poison and KB et al.

I mean, you can't argue this with a straight face. If I put a stick and hobo sack on my shoulder and tour the planet counting the GW games where Lords are decked out in mega armor over decent saves, it's probably not even 10%. I don't think 90% of the players are stupid, I think players are damn smart and know what works.

And if 90% (completely made up #) are doing something, then it should be changed. If there's no real downside or loophole to wards, and there isn't, and everyone takes them because they are so cost-effective, and they are, I think that's a problem and not really in keeping with everything else in the game.

Kinda like, everyone HAD to take TZ Loremasters in last edition. It's what you did. It was a given. So they changed it. You HAD to take dwarfen gunlines (because dwarfs were so crazy slow). Now they are more variable. You HAD to take Teclis if you wanted to make people cry.

The reason there are so many steadfast threads is because they don't have a really solid counter. No rock to scissors. Like cavalry or whatever. Wards don't have one either other than trying so much you hope he fails.

To your first point: Flaming attacks have more downsides than benefits. That's the kind of thing I'm saying should be avoided.

And yeah, everyone takes Ward saves, because they always do okay.
I guess...hm. I guess it's just easier to deal wounds than it is to prevent them? So, you're basically taking a Ward save to weather the handful of attacks on your character that ignore his armour, and he'll kill his way out of the rest?

As I've said (several times now), I agree that there should be stuff that bypasses Wards. Absolutely. But I think a few things, here and there, would be enough to solve the issue. I mean, we don't want Daemons taking an even bigger hit. They've got it hard enough as-is.

...which brings us back on-topic!

Again, you're making up stuff. Flaming attacks have almost no downsides. They are insanely cheap no matter how you go about acquiring them. You can give an infinite size unit flaming for 10pts. Because it's only good vs. a very small number of targets. It's only very recent armies that have even begun to add bonuses vs. it.

No, wards do way better than okay. It does "okay" vs. super elite armor on a cost comparison. But it is the only option at the high end of the spectrum along with regen, which it beats. It is the absolute god when it comes to getting shot with cannonballs you can't/didn't dodge or KB or some pissed off Daemon Lord or in a challenge with Sir AwesomeFace and his Sword of Nut-Slicing.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Again, you're making up stuff. Flaming attacks have almost no downsides.

Dragon Helm, Dragonbane Gem, Dragon Armour, the Rune of the Furnace, etc.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
No, wards do way better than okay. It does "okay" vs. super elite armor on a cost comparison...It is the absolute god when it comes to getting shot with cannonballs you can't/didn't dodge or KB or some pissed off Daemon Lord or in a challenge with Sir AwesomeFace and his Sword of Nut-Slicing.

I mean, it's the best option. But the best option is cutting the wounds you take in half. Don't get me wrong; I'll take it. But since 50%+ of those wounds are still coming through, and I've only got 3...or I've got a 50-50 shot of being dead via Killing Blow.
Again, I'll take those odds. But I won't be betting on them. And I feel like, most of the time, players try to orchestrate situations where they would feel safe putting money down on the desired outcome, like Blender-Vampires and Ogre Gutstars.

But. Anyway. Daemons. Small units. Can it be done?

Warpsolution wrote:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Again, you're making up stuff. Flaming attacks have almost no downsides.

Dragon Helm, Dragonbane Gem, Dragon Armour, the Rune of the Furnace, etc.

Only two armies in the game get unit-wide 4++ or better vs. Flaming Attacks, (High Elves & Beastmen for now), other than that, those items are strictly only ever found on characters.

If a character is suddenly challenging your unit that's carrying the Burny Banner, then odds are he has a 2++ vs. Flaming Attacks. Thus, you should simply refuse his challenege and continue about slaughtering the rank and file who almost certainly have 0 added protection vs. fire.

Warpsolution wrote:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
No, wards do way better than okay. It does "okay" vs. super elite armor on a cost comparison...It is the absolute god when it comes to getting shot with cannonballs you can't/didn't dodge or KB or some pissed off Daemon Lord or in a challenge with Sir AwesomeFace and his Sword of Nut-Slicing.

I mean, it's the best option. But the best option is cutting the wounds you take in half. Don't get me wrong; I'll take it. But since 50%+ of those wounds are still coming through, and I've only got 3...or I've got a 50-50 shot of being dead via Killing Blow.
Again, I'll take those odds. But I won't be betting on them. And I feel like, most of the time, players try to orchestrate situations where they would feel safe putting money down on the desired outcome, like Blender-Vampires and Ogre Gutstars.

Considering how popular things like Death-snipes are, or pointing a cannon at your large monster-riding hero, having a Ward save on your expensive Lord/Lv4 Wizard is a worthwhile investment ever single time.
We simply get the short end of the stick since the only way ours can be boosted is by rolling a 10 on the RoC table.

Now, while having some soft counters to ward saves like more abilities ala OTS would be fine, we would honestly need a proper army book to compensate as our current pile of poo would simply get roflstomped even harder and thus shoehorn us even further into 'Pleaguebearers+Beasts+Khannons'

Warpsolution wrote:
But. Anyway. Daemons. Small units. Can it be done?

Yes it can, but it's simply nowhere near the same level as our cookie-cutter 'One List' is.

If you're going mainly Tzeentch or Slaanesh, then MSU is really the best option available. (actually, for Tzeenthc MSU gunline is the only option you have and even then, it's still just polishing a turd!)
Khorne on the other hand should outright avoid MSU-style simply because the Dark Prince Thirsts result is absolute murder on his units.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Again, you're making up stuff. Flaming attacks have almost no downsides.

Dragon Helm, Dragonbane Gem, Dragon Armour, the Rune of the Furnace, etc.

Only two armies in the game get unit-wide 4++ or better vs. Flaming Attacks, (High Elves & Beastmen for now), other than that, those items are strictly only ever found on characters.

If a character is suddenly challenging your unit that's carrying the Burny Banner, then odds are he has a 2++ vs. Flaming Attacks. Thus, you should simply refuse his challenege and continue about slaughtering the rank and file who almost certainly have 0 added protection vs. fire.

Chaos Dwarfs. The infantry are 5++ vs fire, but they have special and rare units that are 2++ vs fire.
If you've ever fought a chaos dwarf army, you'll know that showing up with a flaming banner is a huge liability.

-Matt

Experiment 626 wrote:
Only two armies in the game get unit-wide 4++ or better vs. Flaming Attacks, (High Elves & Beastmen for now), other than that, those items are strictly only ever found on characters.

If a character is suddenly challenging your unit that's carrying the Burny Banner, then odds are he has a 2++ vs. Flaming Attacks. Thus, you should simply refuse his challenege and continue about slaughtering the rank and file who almost certainly have 0 added protection vs. fire.

Well, I'm talking mostly about characters, here. But that is a fair point, I guess: is negating a 4 or 5+ Regen on a unit worth risking giving a character a 2+ Ward against you? I just feel like the durability offered with a 2+ save, coupled with the fact that it's 5-10pts, makes Flaming Attacks a dangerous bet. All the Dwarf players I know, for example, don't take the Rune of Fire anymore, but always try to fit in the Rune of the Furnace. I've seen a lone Hero hold up a whole block for longer than should be possible far too many times.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Considering how popular things like Death-snipes are, or pointing a cannon at your large monster-riding hero, having a Ward save on your expensive Lord/Lv4 Wizard is a worthwhile investment ever single time.
We simply get the short end of the stick since the only way ours can be boosted is by rolling a 10 on the RoC table.

I don't think people run many monster-riding characters, because Ward save or no, the chance they'll get shot down by cannon fire is too high. And yeah, the Lore of Death is a good reason to pack a Ward save. But for a character, on foot, in a big block of infantry, it's The Main reason I can find. If it wasn't for those, I'd take re-rollable armour saves and such almost every time.
But yeah, it is a big enough threat to warrant some insurance.
I feel like an army-wide 5+ Ward is solid; but because Daemons have characters that are also monsters, not to mention the RoC table reducing the saves, things aren't looking so good.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Yes it can, but it's simply nowhere near the same level as our cookie-cutter 'One List' is.

If you're going mainly Tzeentch or Slaanesh, then MSU is really the best option available. (actually, for Tzeenthc MSU gunline is the only option you have and even then, it's still just polishing a turd!)
Khorne on the other hand should outright avoid MSU-style simply because the Dark Prince Thirsts result is absolute murder on his units.

How about Flesh Hounds? Do you think they're viable in small units, still?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Chaos Dwarfs. The infantry are 5++ vs fire, but they have special and rare units that are 2++ vs fire.
If you've ever fought a chaos dwarf army, you'll know that showing up with a flaming banner is a huge liability.

-Matt

I've never played against the evil stunties since the LGS's don't allow any Forgeworld/Warhammer Forge rules because they believe them to be very broken/OP... (admittedly though, this is because of a guy who steamrolled a tourney years ago with the old Infernus Shells that caused auto-fallback moves if they simply hit a unit.)

Still, old grudges die hard and most of the time simply suggesting a game/event allows for the FW/WF is typically met with bitter aggression.

Warpsolution wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

If you're going mainly Tzeentch or Slaanesh, then MSU is really the best option available. (actually, for Tzeenthc MSU gunline is the only option you have and even then, it's still just polishing a turd!)
Khorne on the other hand should outright avoid MSU-style simply because the Dark Prince Thirsts result is absolute murder on his units.

How about Flesh Hounds? Do you think they're viable in small units, still?

Only if you give them the Ambushers upgrade as it really helps to lessen the chances of them getting nailed by rolling an 8 for Winds.

Remember, without a Khornate general, (who's a much bigger liability than anything else), you're generally going to be rolling 3D6 vs. Ld7, meaning an average roll is still 3-4 auto-wounds. (yes you get your ward, but still...) Anything that goes above average has a good shot at crippling or else outright nuking your unit entirely.


I really, really wish we had gotten the Instrument mechanic from 40k to make the damn table less of a threat to us, since it's techinically supposed to make-up for our general lack of a shooting phase.

Warpsolution wrote:
is negating a 4 or 5+ Regen on a unit worth risking giving a character a 2+ Ward against you?

Yes. Always. Because almost no one has a 2+ ward vs. flaming. Or anything ward vs. flaming. But regen is on every troll, likely every ogre army, likely everyone with Life magic, likely every VC army, every TK army (which is also flammable), and various others. Again, it's cost:benefit. It's rock/scissors. Some stuff is going to beat flaming, just like every other thing in this game.

Except wards.

That's the whole point. Wards have no counter. Regen has a counter. Flaming has a counter. Armor has a counter. KB has a counter. Even stuff like ASF has counters (other ASF or stuff, admittedly few, that gives ASL). Stomp/Tstomp has a counter, you're too big. I mean this is an unbelievably common theme in WHFB. Wards don't have a counter and they should.

I think people are over-rating the 8 on winds of chaos.
8 comes up for power dice 5:36 times.
A khorne unit then gets hit 1:6 times.
With just those odds, any given khorne unit is going to be testing ~3.7% of the time.

With 3 units of khorne, you're only looking at a ~6% chance of anything happening to any of them.

Fleshhounds, with 10 wounds with a 5+ ward is a pretty solid defense when the 8 does come up.
What I would be worried about is very high cost khorne models; soul grinders and blood thirsters.

From what I've seen, if someone's running a lone hero, like a Goblin Warboss or a Saurus Scar-Veteran, they've got that 2+. And two characters out of every Tomb Kings army. And every Ghoul King.

There's just something wrong with the logic "a Ghoul King? Quick, everyone! Douse your torches! We don't want to give him more protection!"

If a "counter" to ASF is ASF, could a counter to Wards be considered Wards? I mean, on one hand, we both attack at the same time, negating the benefit. On the other, we both ignore 16-50% of incoming wounds, so we're back to an even playing field again.
Not that I think that's acceptable, either way. But if there were as many things that negated Wards as there are that grant ASL, I'd call that fair.

Also, I've yet to see Nurgle's Monstrous Infantry in action. How are they? Seems like they'd fit the bill of a MSU-style list.

Warpsolution wrote:
From what I've seen, if someone's running a lone hero, like a Goblin Warboss or a Saurus Scar-Veteran, they've got that 2+. And two characters out of every Tomb Kings army. And every Ghoul King.

Then you live on Planet Improbable. No one is getting those items, preventing them from getting others in the same type, and if they do, you simply don't care. I don't care if a goblin warboss has a -50 ward vs. fire. He's a goblin warboss. The more points he spends, the more he's a waste. And no gobbo wb is going, yes, flaming is what I truly fear in this world. By your own logic, no one would ever ever do that because it's never worthwhile to bring flaming, as you've repeatedly stated. So all these people are packing flaming resist against nothing. You're normally somewhat cool-headed but you just need to concede this. If hero X has flaming resist, you'll simply kill every single model in his unit and wonder why a model with no fear of flaming whatsoever would be spending extra points to get protection. It's nearly as bad as an ogre buying KB protection.

I agree that Khorne gets waaay too much flak for what could theoretical happen. Their units are probably a point or two overcosted. But they are still solid.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
From what I've seen, if someone's running a lone hero, like a Goblin Warboss or a Saurus Scar-Veteran, they've got that 2+. And two characters out of every Tomb Kings army. And every Ghoul King.

Then you live on Planet Improbable. No one is getting those items, preventing them from getting others in the same type, and if they do, you simply don't care. I don't care if a goblin warboss has a -50 ward vs. fire. He's a goblin warboss. The more points he spends, the more he's a waste. And no gobbo wb is going, yes, flaming is what I truly fear in this world. By your own logic, no one would ever ever do that because it's never worthwhile to bring flaming, as you've repeatedly stated. So all these people are packing flaming resist against nothing. You're normally somewhat cool-headed but you just need to concede this. If hero X has flaming resist, you'll simply kill every single model in his unit and wonder why a model with no fear of flaming whatsoever would be spending extra points to get protection. It's nearly as bad as an ogre buying KB protection.

I agree that Khorne gets waaay too much flak for what could theoretical happen. Their units are probably a point or two overcosted. But they are still solid.

Actually, Goblin Big Boss, light armor, shield, dragon helm, spear and Gigantic Spider is a standard hero I use for my O&G.
91 points for a T4 W3 2+ save with 3S5 and 3S4 poison attacks, + S4 stomp.
Unlike the more expensive fast cav choices, he doesn't take animosity tests, has superior leadership, and will beat warmachine crew.
The fact that he gets a 2+ ward vs flaming is a free bonus to the fact that he's got a 2+ armor save (invincible on the goblin scale of things).

-Matt

But it's moot. If he's going for war machine crews if he has flaming resist or pink panther resist it simply doesn't matter. He's getting it for the armor, not flaming. If someone is going to kill him, they likely don't give a poo he has flaming resist.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think people are over-rating the 8 on winds of chaos.
8 comes up for power dice 5:36 times.
A khorne unit then gets hit 1:6 times.
With just those odds, any given khorne unit is going to be testing ~3.7% of the time.

With 3 units of khorne, you're only looking at a ~6% chance of anything happening to any of them.

Fleshhounds, with 10 wounds with a 5+ ward is a pretty solid defense when the 8 does come up.
What I would be worried about is very high cost khorne models; soul grinders and blood thirsters.

I never put much faith in mathhammer... I've seen far too many Skullcannons taken up the rear by Slaanesh, while the 'Thirster/Prince get mauled enough to the point that a single focused enemy shooting phase will end them.
Flesh Hounds aren't really much better off as you're praying to roll nothing over an 11 to keep them relatively 'safe'.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
But it's moot. If he's going for war machine crews if he has flaming resist or pink panther resist it simply doesn't matter. He's getting it for the armor, not flaming. If someone is going to kill him, they likely don't give a poo he has flaming resist.

It's not entirely moot. He's got a twin brother (enchanted shield/dragon bane gem). If I run into a unit that has flaming attacks, the two of them make a bee-line at it. 2+/2++ is brutal.
I do run a unit of 6 trolls as well; and if you lack warmachines, I'll put them both into the troll unit. To negate the 4+ regen, you have to deal with 2+ armor and 2+ ward. And that's half of my frontage.

-Matt

Regen is negated by flaming. If you got a guy in the unit with 2/2 it doesn't make any difference, the trolls are still regen 4+ and then nothing when hit by flaming attacks. And it's half your frontage, doesn't mean it's half theirs. And to do so you're hiding more than half you trolls. Which seems like an odd thing to do. I mean you can make a conga line with some mega armor/ward hero that stretches back to your border and say hah, no one can hurt me, but you're not doing jack for dmg.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Regen is negated by flaming. If you got a guy in the unit with 2/2 it doesn't make any difference, the trolls are still regen 4+ and then nothing when hit by flaming attacks. And it's half your frontage, doesn't mean it's half theirs. And to do so you're hiding more than half you trolls. Which seems like an odd thing to do. I mean you can make a conga line with some mega armor/ward hero that stretches back to your border and say hah, no one can hurt me, but you're not doing jack for dmg.

6 trolls and 2 heroes (on 40mms) rank up 4 wide and 2 deep.

Against, say, 6 nurgle warriors of chaos (150m of frontage) I charge in and minimize who's touching trolls.
With heroes lined up on one side of the unit, I can charge in with the heroes touching 5 models, and the two trolls touching only 2.
All 6 chaos warriors are in base to base, as are both heroes and both trolls. The full second rank makes supporting attacks.
It's all kosher; both units are fully engaged. If the opposing unit has a champ or hero, then one of the bosses issues a challenge so they are not forced to shift.
The net effect is at most, 2 models swinging on trolls. The trolls throw out either 6 vomits or 18 S5 attacks. The goblins toss out 6 S5, 4 S4 with poison, and then 2 S4 stomps and 2S5 stomps.

The nurgle warriors do ~2 to 3 wounds on the trolls, and 0 to 1 on the goblin heroes. Trolls do ~4 wounds, heroes and mounts and stomps do another 3-4.
With a rank and charge, the spider/troll unit is bringing a combat res of 9 to 10, the nurgle chaos warriors are ending with rank and standard, for a combat res of 4 to 5.
That leaves the troll unit winning by 4 to 6 points, and having a rank, breaking steadfast.

One of the reasons why I bring these heroes is that they let the trolls beat units that are specifically equipped to kill the trolls. Going up against nurgle warriors with halberds and flaming is about the worst match up for the trolls.
Points-wise, it's not that uneven of a match up. 18 warriors of nurgle with halberds is 372, the trolls with both heroes are 385. I see blocks of 18 warriors pretty damn often...
Anyhow; fire ward saves do pair REALLY well with regen units.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
By your own logic, no one would ever ever do that because it's never worthwhile to bring flaming, as you've repeatedly stated.

I believe that, what I stated at first, was that the benefits offered by flaming were more than offset by the drawbacks, and then later went on to say that the benefit of flaming is greater, what with unit-wide Regeneration.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
So all these people are packing flaming resist against nothing.

And then people stop taking them, and then people start taking Flaming again, etc. Isn't that how a big portion of this game works?

 DukeRustfield wrote:
You're normally somewhat cool-headed but you just need to concede this.

I'm sorry if I've come across as "hot-headed" or anything like that. I've tried to stress that, while I see your point, and mostly straight-up agree with it, that I think a little moderation is needed. I hope you're responding to a perceived slight, because you're coming across as remarkably abrasive.

Because I feel you're making stuff up and backtracking to unmake it.

Flaming sucks, so no one takes it, but we equip items to block flaming, because flaming sucks.

It's circular logic. Either flaming doesn't suck and there's a reason to take or care about a ward vs. flaming, or flaming sucks and whether stuff has wards vs. flaming is just as important as if they have wards vs. snotling swarms.

OR, it's like I originally said. Flaming is a counter to regen and flaming wards are a counter to Flaming. *Gasp*. Just like every damn thing in the game.

Except generic wards. Which is what I've been saying over and over. They have no counter. They are auto-buy for any model past a certain point level. That's 40K-ish. Right now, if Skragg (Ogre SC) had a 4+ ward to start, he would be great. But he starts with nothing and has to build to regen. He's too expensive to risk it. That to me is a problem.

OTS= re-roll wards; Test or Die Spells= no ward save; Expensive magic items= limit to who has access to BRB ward saves; Few units in the game with innate ward saves= (again) limit on who has access to them

Wards are not so wide spread that it is a HUGE problem for a character or two plus MAYBE a unit or two to have them. Typical wards for units are around 5+ which is no more difficult to contend with than an armor save. I see your point that nothing "counters ward saves" but that is the point. They are the be-all end-all save in WHFB.

Could they add spells or items or units that specifically counter ward saves? Sure. Should they? No, because then those new tools would be "auto include" as well.

Lastly, I ALWAYS include the 2+ ward vs fire items. If I am running multiple characters (like Matt does) I put the dragon helm on one and the dragon bane gem on the other. The items are dirt cheap and come in handy at odd times. I am starting to include the fire banner less and less and when I do, I put it on a smaller, specialized unit, not one of my primary hammers. Reason? Specifically because of those 2+ wards vs flaming.

PS I apologize for continuing to derail this thread...

Pervertdhermit wrote:
OTS= re-roll wards; Test or Die Spells= no ward save; Expensive magic items= limit to who has access to BRB ward saves; Few units in the game with innate ward saves= (again) limit on who has access to them

Wards are not so wide spread that it is a HUGE problem for a character or two plus MAYBE a unit or two to have them. Typical wards for units are around 5+ which is no more difficult to contend with than an armor save. I see your point that nothing "counters ward saves" but that is the point. They are the be-all end-all save in WHFB.

Could they add spells or items or units that specifically counter ward saves? Sure. Should they? No, because then those new tools would be "auto include" as well.

Wards are widespread. Every lord has one. If every lord has 100pt magic allowance and they always take a ward, it's a bit silly.

Test or die isn't a ward counter. It's a big block counter. It makes no difference if the block is 1+ armor save or 1+ regen save. Counter means counter specifically. A cannon isn't a counter to a lone gnoblar model even though it would kill one if you ever saw one.

WHFB is rock paper scissors, not be all. Some examples of be alls are steadfast and the aforementioned lvl 6 spells. Both of which people complain about constantly because they can't counter them.

No, anti wards wouldn't be auto include. The existence of a counter means you CAN take it. You can try and counter everything and be all-comers or hope they don't bring it. People still run mega blocks even though they might get lvl 6 spelled. You all are saying you carry flaming wards because there might be flaming. You are using counters to counters.

Anti-ward would be good against the other lord IF he's packing it. If he decided to go regen or mega armor, you wasted points. That's what WHFB makes you do. It makes you guess what your enemy is bringing and come up with strategies to best work and counter them.

Except against wards, which have no counters.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Pervertdhermit wrote:
OTS= re-roll wards; Test or Die Spells= no ward save; Expensive magic items= limit to who has access to BRB ward saves; Few units in the game with innate ward saves= (again) limit on who has access to them

Wards are not so wide spread that it is a HUGE problem for a character or two plus MAYBE a unit or two to have them. Typical wards for units are around 5+ which is no more difficult to contend with than an armor save. I see your point that nothing "counters ward saves" but that is the point. They are the be-all end-all save in WHFB.

Could they add spells or items or units that specifically counter ward saves? Sure. Should they? No, because then those new tools would be "auto include" as well.

Wards are widespread. Every lord has one. If every lord has 100pt magic allowance and they always take a ward, it's a bit silly.

Test or die isn't a ward counter. It's a big block counter. It makes no difference if the block is 1+ armor save or 1+ regen save. Counter means counter specifically. A cannon isn't a counter to a lone gnoblar model even though it would kill one if you ever saw one.

WHFB is rock paper scissors, not be all. Some examples of be alls are steadfast and the aforementioned lvl 6 spells. Both of which people complain about constantly because they can't counter them.

No, anti wards wouldn't be auto include. The existence of a counter means you CAN take it. You can try and counter everything and be all-comers or hope they don't bring it. People still run mega blocks even though they might get lvl 6 spelled. You all are saying you carry flaming wards because there might be flaming. You are using counters to counters.

Anti-ward would be good against the other lord IF he's packing it. If he decided to go regen or mega armor, you wasted points. That's what WHFB makes you do. It makes you guess what your enemy is bringing and come up with strategies to best work and counter them.

Except against wards, which have no counters.

The Banishment spell from Lore of Light is a decent counter to Ward saves atm as it forces successful saves to be re-rolled.

The big issue comes from the fact that you don't want to give too many of these abilities out as it would simply curbstomp DoC in general as our ward saves are really our only form of protection outside of Plaguebearers w/Regen and a couple crappy armour saves on Bloodcrushers, Drones & the chariots.
Only the Khannon sports a decent save, while our characters have only a 16% chance to gain a 2+ armour save.

Mind you, if 9th ed starts handing out Ward save counters like candy, it might mean we'd jump the waiting line and get a much faster update, and thus be able to burn this current poo-pile of a book!

So sure, bring on the hard-counters to ward saves - it's not like we'd get THAT much worse than we are now really...

Well, oddly, DoC having ward as their huge savior isn't that big because other armies can get it better. Basically Doc is limited by a 5+ ward. But that's only because they can't get it higher and they punished DoC for being awesome in the past and made them more expensive.

If wards had easy counters it would indeed mess up DoC. Unless they changed Daemonic or something, which they could do rather easily.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Well, oddly, DoC having ward as their huge savior isn't that big because other armies can get it better. Basically Doc is limited by a 5+ ward. But that's only because they can't get it higher and they punished DoC for being awesome in the past and made them more expensive.

If wards had easy counters it would indeed mess up DoC. Unless they changed Daemonic or something, which they could do rather easily.

Daemonic has stayed pretty consistent since forever... The only major change was that in the waaaaaaay back when of 'the before time', Daemons had a 'magical ward save' of 5++ that would be ignored by magical attacks. (basically, they had the WE 'Forest Spirits' rule before WE's ever got it!)

I guess if they give us that back then it would really screw us over even more so than we already are, but somehow I doubt GW would be that foolish.

No, I'm saying they can stick anything in it. Like Daemonic ward saves cannot be raised or lowered except by Winds. And the counter to wards in the new BRB is something that lowers wards. Like for every WS point difference. Or whatever, that's just an example.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Because I feel you're making stuff up and backtracking to unmake it.

I had an opinion, and thanks to some evidence offered, it has changed. It's still different than yours, but it's closer. I mean...that's why these forums exist. Sheesh.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The big issue comes from the fact that you don't want to give too many of these abilities out as it would simply curbstomp DoC in general as our ward saves are really our only form of protection outside of Plaguebearers w/Regen and a couple crappy armour saves on Bloodcrushers, Drones & the chariots.
Only the Khannon sports a decent save, while our characters have only a 16% chance to gain a 2+ armour save.

If you ran MSU Daemons, would you just keep your characters cheap and accept it when they bite the dust, or get some gifts and hope for the best, then?