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So i think I would like a go at Daemon MSU lists, in particular 2k points as i am struggling to write a list for it anyway. Main question though, how to deal with hordes? I dont have much shooting in a daemon army and what there is isnt reliable (d6 for 40pt flamers at str4, grape shot or flame thrower for burning chariot and the lovely skull cannon). i have used the burning chariot a few times getting high amount of shots at very good str which helped me take apart a Bretonnia army (was silly the amount of 10's I was rolling for grape shot!). But they are 150pts a go so 300 pts for a unreiable amount of shots per turn with warp flame is meh IMO.

Do I go a fast list, seekers and 'nettes (of which i only own 20 of each) or horror spam which I have seen advised but then infernal gateway isnt that good on hordes really. Anyone run MSU daemons before and can offer me advise?

thanks!

Treason of Tzeench lets MSU break hordes.
Pit of Shades, mind razor and Final Transmutation all do wonders to big blocks.

But generally, you don't take out big blocks with MSU, you block them, feed them, and redirect them. Then you kill the rest of the army.

-Matt

I would imagine that a mixed god army would be the best for MSU.

You take the best units of each affiliate god and combine them into one army that can hold its on.

Start compiling a list of units worth their salt in low numbers for Daemons:

Beasts of Nurgle
Skull Cannons
Daemonettes
Greater Daemons (obviously a lot of points though)

I don't think core doc is very good MSU. Doc is meant to get bonuses from their Heralds. And you can't be sticking heralds in MSUs or they're just too expensive.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I don't think core doc is very good MSU. Doc is meant to get bonuses from their Heralds. And you can't be sticking heralds in MSUs or they're just too expensive.

Heralds won't work in a MSU style army, (maybe a tzeench herald for the dispelling).

I would try something like this: (2500 points)
2x Daemon Prince (tzeench and nurgle), both with a 25 point gift.
2x10 daemonettes
3x10 horrors (standards)
3 Blood Crushers (standard)
5 Flesh Hounds with Ambush
5 Seekers
2x5 Furies (tzeench and nurgle)
3 Screamers
3 Plague Drones, poison attacks, standard
1 Burning Chariot with blue horror
1 Skull Cannon

You have plenty of speed. Use chaff to block death stars, and slam 2x daemon princes + drones + blood crushers into enemy units. Send Seekers, Screamers and Flesh Hounds to tear up the back field.
Shoot cannon/fire thrower into best targets you can find.

You're not going to table anyone, but you should be able to compete as long as you carefully choose which units you are going to sacrifice.
3 level 1's for a magic phase isn't ideal, but target saturation will limit the damage you take to some extent. The only high value targets you bring pack huge stats protecting against test-or-die spells.

-Matt

I was also thinking of heralds on disc for metal or tzeentch flying about.

This is what i am currently thinking of for 2k pts

Daemon prince Slaanesh
Daemon prince Slaanesh

Both basic and slaanesh as they are 250 each

2x 10 daemonettes
2x 10 horrors with standard

3x 5 seekers
4 x 2 beasts
2 nurgling bases

skull cannon

Lots of speed really plus 2 horrors units for some magic skull cannon for hunting big things and beasts as blockers seekers for 20 inch marches. Would this work?

Sadly i dont own any plague drones or furies yet

MarkyMark wrote:
I was also thinking of heralds on disc for metal or tzeentch flying about.

This is what i am currently thinking of for 2k pts

Daemon prince Slaanesh
Daemon prince Slaanesh

Both basic and slaanesh as they are 250 each

Go Nurgle or Tzeentch or else don't even bother... The WoC Daemon Prince is getting shot up enough as it is between HE/DE's & your basic war machines and he actually gets amazing protection! Ours are basically naked and rely on hilariously random dice rolls to attempt to get some decent defensive buffs. (and even then, they're gimped since they can only take 75pts of Gifts.)
Save the pts and just make do with Heralds... Overall we really shouldn't be looking at Lords until the 2400pts or so simply because to get a decent package is going to run about 400-500pts.

Disc Tzheralds were good last book. Again, without any kind of boosted Ward save or other possible defensive boosts, they're just asking to get picked off since they're only a T4/W2 model which cannot gain protection from any units, (as his unit type become Cavalry and Tzeentch has no Cavalry type units), and is likely a decent threat.
Better bet would be to go for 1 or 2 Tzheralds, Lv2 and run one with Metal and the other with Tzeentch to try and get Treason/Bolt and thus leave Pink Fire/Gateway/Firestorm for the Pinkies.

Also a Slaany Herald with Lv1 Shadow for Miasma is fun to run about either in a unit of 'Nettes w/+1M Banner or else on a Steed in a unit of 10-15 Seekers. Using Miasma to nuke an enemy unit's Movement for a turn can be a huge asset to an MSU style army.

MarkyMark wrote:
2x 10 daemonettes
2x 10 horrors with standard

The 'Nettes could do with up'ing them to 15 since you won't be running Lore of Slaanesh to grow extras through the Lore Attribute... Those unit standards would be better off with the 'Nettes as well since they must see combat to do any damage. One unit could take the +1M Banner and effectively move about at the speed of heavy cav. Flaming Banner is also good and cheap and can be used to combat regen units, or else the +1Ld Banner to help with Instability tests.

MarkyMark wrote:
3x 5 seekers
4 x 2 beasts
2 nurgling bases

Can only take 3 units of Beasts max. Probably best to run 2x solo Beasts and a unit of 4 for hitting squishy things and/or tarpitting scary things.

Might want to merge the Seekers into one unit of 12-15 since they die to stiff breeze but can also throw out some decent hurt in combat... The Nurgling bases + solo Beasts should be able to handle the chaff, at least until you can get some Furies to add to the mix.
Going a slightly larger unit of Seekers can give you a second hitty unit for slamming into a flank. Add in a Herald of Slaanesh w/Miasma + Lesser Locus and you can also happily ignore all the disadvantages of dangerous terrain tests, auto-pass Look out Sir! AND any and all stat tests! For it's paltry cost, it's probably the second best Locus ability in the book.

MarkyMark wrote:
skull cannon

Lots of speed really plus 2 horrors units for some magic skull cannon for hunting big things and beasts as blockers seekers for 20 inch marches. Would this work?

Sadly i dont own any plague drones or furies yet

MSU definitely works to a point for Daemons... It's not the beatstick that 'The One List' is, but Plaguebrick + max Beasts + Khannons is boring as feth anyways and just makes people continue to absolutely hate our army!
The biggest problem is how MSU relies even more on Herald abilities to buff your key units, but outside of Nurgle, our Heralds are pretty much a joke since they're nearly impossible to protect... The Slaany ones can be kept a bit cheaper and still bring some killer synergy with Shadow magic and have a amazingly cheap Locus ability. The Khorne ones I honestly wouldn't bother with in any kind of MSU build though since you're splurging on a 225+ pts character who at best will be T4/W3/4+/5++. (and that's with just Hatred + Jugger! Compare it to the mounted Slaany Herald who's only 155pts for Lv1 + Lesser Locus)

MSU gets better the more Slaanesh you bring since that's really their specialty... The more Miasma's you can bring the better since you can nuke an enemy's Movement for a turn and really gain the upper hand with table control.
Plus while Slaaesh magic is pretty good, it's still not quite Lore of Shadows, and having Pit/Mindrazor in an MSU build can be critical to success. Plus you also have the opportunity for Withering which can really boost your Warpflame attacks and lessen the threat of handing out Regen like candy.

Let people cry all they want, but I would take 2 Skull Cannons as well.

Furies and/or flesh hounds for fast moving, harassment units

Beasts as described by Experiment626 above: 2 solo beasts and one unit of 3-4

The Core is iffy IMO, as I never see people running Horrors and you are missing an opportunity to have additional combat units. The Nettes I like, but not the Horrors. Maybe just a Herald or two for magic and pick up some MSU letters/ bearers for core as well

I just don't know what you're getting from the MSU DoC other than proving you can juggle an insanely complicated army that is giving up some of its bonuses.

Having 2 DPs is interesting. But the main question I have is how are you going to kill anything? You can't redirect-to-win, eventually you have to slay some units.

The only reason I would go light on khorne units is the Reign of chaos table. Roll an 8 for power dice, and all your khorne units are taking leadership tests on 3D6.
That can totally cripple units, as you don't typically see a BSB and general that is all that useful in a MSU army.

Pervertdhermit wrote:

The Core is iffy IMO, as I never see people running Horrors and you are missing an opportunity to have additional combat units. The Nettes I like, but not the Horrors. Maybe just a Herald or two for magic and pick up some MSU letters/ bearers for core as well

You never, ever take Horrors beyond the basic 10 man unit, simply because their magic lore is rather poop. They have 2 really good spell options and a 3rd that can be made to work - the other 4 spells are all either better off on a LoC or Tzherald or else are just crap spells to begin with. (looking at you Blue Fire!)

That said, spamming 10 man Horror units is basically like spamming a bunch of cheap Lv1's who can then help to channel extra dice each phase and of course being 'Daemons of Tzeentch', they also get the added re-roll 1's benefit. (not much really, but it's something)
Horrors also have a laughably useless special Miscast rule that makes 6-dicing spells like Gateway/Firestorm a non-issue. At worst (ie: 1/36 chance) you suffer 12/S10 wounds that still allow for your ward save! Most of the time, the Lore Attribute will easily cover any losses from a Miscast.

Add in a Tzherald with Exalted Locus for the +1S to their spells, and for the basic 130pts for 10 Pinkies, you can devastate most units, including Heavy Cav with the Gateway unit.


MSU Bloodletters on the other hand are nothing more than slower chaff that's running you 140pts per throw-away unit. They bring absolutely nothing to the table and are prone to getting zapped by the Dark Prince Thirsts result from the Reign of Comedy table as HawaiiMatt points out.

Honestly, outside of the Khannons and the occasional ambushing Hounds unit, anything Khorne can do in this book, someone else does equally well or (usually) incredibly better...

DukeRustfield wrote:
I just don't know what you're getting from the MSU DoC other than proving you can juggle an insanely complicated army that is giving up some of its bonuses.

Having 2 DPs is interesting. But the main question I have is how are you going to kill anything? You can't redirect-to-win, eventually you have to slay some units.

MSU DoC is about the only other really competitive list Daemons have beyond 'The List' right now. It works, especially if you take a decent amount of Slaanesh, but it's like MSU HE's in that it's a glass cannon that can't take many hits and/or make mistakes.

Double Princes is doable - again nowhere near optimal, but as long as they're both Nurgle then there's some decent potential to play off of.
They're still just T5/W4 models in the end though, and double Princes tends to rely on having lots of Beasts, Drones, Khannons, ambushing Hounds, etc... about in order to overwhelm your opponent's ability to assess key threats.

MSU DoC merely takes all the weaknesses of the new DoC and exacerbates them. You gain nothing.

-Overpriced units who can't benefit from Herald and thus be competitive? Check.
-2/3s or more units who can't use the BSB and Generals LD? Check.
-Much greater chance of every magic round someone gets hit in the face? Check.
-No Steadfast on units that need all the LD help they can get? Check.
-Heroes/SCs unable to rejoin different units after theirs gets reduced? So you got naked solo heroes whose main job it is to buff units unable to do so. Check.

They clearly weren't designed to play that way. It's competitive in the sense that other teams will make lots of points off you at tournaments, but that's about it.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
MSU DoC merely takes all the weaknesses of the new DoC and exacerbates them. You gain nothing.

-Overpriced units who can't benefit from Herald and thus be competitive? Check.

10 Horrors, 15-18 Daemonettes, 10-15 Seekers all still gain decent benefits from their Heralds, because you can keep them cheap AND they bring very useful abilities. (+1S to spells ability & 'using up' bad spells for Tzeentch and Lesser Locus + Miasma for Slaanesh)

MSU Nurgle doesn't need Heralds because you're not using Plaguebearers.

MSU Khorne is pretty much auto-lose without the Chromatic Tome due to getting jnailed in the junk by the Reign of Comedy table's harshest result.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
-2/3s or more units who can't use the BSB and Generals LD? Check.

Outside of 'The One List' or a Slaany Cacobomb, that tends to be the norm anyways.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
-Much greater chance of every magic round someone gets hit in the face? Check.

The Tzeentch & Khorne results are laughable due to scattering.
Nurgle result is pretty 'meh' overall as at worst Tzeentch units will take 9/S3 hits = 4/5 wounds they still get saves against.

Only Slaanesh is insane, hence why MSU Khorne sucks.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
-No Steadfast on units that need all the LD help they can get? Check.

MSU when done right can gunline thanks to spam'ed Horrors, double Burny Chariots & Soul Grinder.

Beasts can tackle most anything short of a 3++ or better bunker and the rest of your combat units should be flanking anyways meaning they should be winning those combats.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
-Heroes/SCs unable to rejoin different units after theirs gets reduced? So you got naked solo heroes whose main job it is to buff units unable to do so. Check.

Tzheralds have only 1 place they can ever go, and their units should easily be capable of doubling in size by game's end.
Slaany Heralds are cheap and Lesser Locus + Miasma is reason enough to warrant their use. Start their units a little more towards MMU size and they'll do well enough.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
They clearly weren't designed to play that way. It's competitive in the sense that other teams will make lots of points off you at tournaments, but that's about it.

The book is so badly dysfunctional it's barely playable at all!

MSU isn't super 'point and click' like The One List, but if you play it properly it's doable, and a good deal more fun/tactical than the other competitive builds.
The main way to run it seems to be mainly Slaanesh with some Tzeentch bits (10 man Horrors w/maybe Tzheralds, Burny Chariots, possibly Screamers if you're feeling brave), and the required 3x Nurgle Furies + lots 'o Beasts.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
MSU DoC merely takes all the weaknesses of the new DoC and exacerbates them. You gain nothing.

-Overpriced units who can't benefit from Herald and thus be competitive? Check.
-2/3s or more units who can't use the BSB and Generals LD? Check.
-Much greater chance of every magic round someone gets hit in the face? Check.
-No Steadfast on units that need all the LD help they can get? Check.
-Heroes/SCs unable to rejoin different units after theirs gets reduced? So you got naked solo heroes whose main job it is to buff units unable to do so. Check.
They clearly weren't designed to play that way. It's competitive in the sense that other teams will make lots of points off you at tournaments, but that's about it.

I don't think it is all that bad, and really, daemons don't really face any problems that MSU armies fighting daemons don't face. Khorne gets it the worst, but khorne wants to go into combat anway, where it won't be affected by the chaos winds.

If I were to do MSU, I'd go with:
Herald of Tzeench, level 2, general.
10 Horrors
35 Bloodletters (gleaming pendant)
3x5 furies of tzeench
3x5 Screamers
2x5 flesh hounds, ambush (off table, very limited effect of reign of chaos)
2x Skull Cannons
1 Soul Grinder with Fire Thrower and claw, mark of tzeench.

Bloodletter might be over-priced, but they are still decent enough in combat. I know that 35 guys isn't MSU, but when it's supported by 12 other units, it will still play as an MSU army.
Combine that with the threat of screamers, flesh hounds, skull cannons and soul grinders for supporting charges and you've got a decent army.
Magic is fairly weak, but all I'd plan on doing it lore of metal nuking the biggest threat they've got.

-Matt

I still find that the Bloodletters are far more trouble than their worth trying to make them really shine...

They really need a re-roll ability like Hatred as they're prone to whiffling their 1 attack per model, and their God bonus is 100% situational.
They also lack the same kind of synergies that their mirror units in other armies get, such as Grave Guard who can be brought back & have their specific lore + banner/option for great weapon. Or Execs who get a much better army special rule and have the high initiative needed to swing first and thus reduce the number of attacks coming back at them.

'Nettes at least bring an ability that's 'always on' in Armour Piercing, and adding in a Miasma, (or if you're really lucky Mindrazor), Herald with a stupidly cheap locus ability that makes the entire unit immune to the 'test or die' spells is outstanding!
'Nettes also have better initiative to boot, which can be further improved upon with instant access to Miasma. (though I prefer to simply go for the -D3 Movement as it makes avoidance/flanking a helluva lot easier!) Still, hitting elves with -D3I can mean no more re-rolls from their ASF which is a huge swing back towards the Daemonettes.
Plus, 'Nettes can use the Banner of E. Flame, which Bloodletters obviously can't.

Why do you need to have flaming attacks?
Regeneration is pretty uncommon, and things that do regenerate, you fire the pair of flaming cannons at.

Yes, I like dameonettes with a herald more, but that herald doesn't survive long. Which quickly puts you down a herald and back to fighting without the herald bonus.

You could swap the bloodletter unit for a big plague bearer unit. The idea is the same; you want to a single big block to act as your center, and support it with massive amounts of chaff.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Why do you need to have flaming attacks?
Regeneration is pretty uncommon, and things that do regenerate, you fire the pair of flaming cannons at.

You don't need the flaming attacks, but it's an added option that further knocks the 'Letters down the "why do they even exist" ladder.

If you regularly see things like Throgg WoC lists or VC builds centered around their area-effect regen buffs, it can be crucial to have that option on a M6 or M10 unit.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Yes, I like dameonettes with a herald more, but that herald doesn't survive long. Which quickly puts you down a herald and back to fighting without the herald bonus.

You could swap the bloodletter unit for a big plague bearer unit. The idea is the same; you want to a single big block to act as your center, and support it with massive amounts of chaff.

-Matt

It goes without saying, but I don't think 'Nettes should ever be facing ANYHTING head-on. They're effectively just T3 Elves who trade all the awesome bonuses for a 5++/ItP/Fear and DI which makes them utterly inferior when compared to the likes of ASF + X/Y Prowess.
Keep them hitting flanks which should be fairly easy considering they're M6 and that Herald survives fine. (especially if you can get say a chariot or solo Beast into the enemy unit's front)

When it comes to a big unit, Beasts are even more effective than 'Bearers if you've already got other plans for your Core Tax. (or even go for Fiends if you're going Cacobombing)

Those otherwise awful'tastic Slaany Chariots even have a decent home in an MSU style army, since they do give you a ludicrous amount of table control due to their threat range... They're decent enough at clearing enemy chaff, or else just clipping a main block that's also being charged by say Drones or a Grinder and leaves your Screamers/Hounds/Furies free and clear to go after war machines/backfield units and/or chaffing up stupid things like a BotWD unit.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Why do you need to have flaming attacks?
Regeneration is pretty uncommon, and things that do regenerate, you fire the pair of flaming cannons at.

You don't need the flaming attacks, but it's an added option that further knocks the 'Letters down the "why do they even exist" ladder.

If you regularly see things like Throgg WoC lists or VC builds centered around their area-effect regen buffs, it can be crucial to have that option on a M6 or M10 unit.

I'll take a pair of flaming cannons to solve both those problems thanks. I run the mortis engines, and flaming cannons are a huge problem. Not only do they kill the whole source of my regeneration, but the death of the mortis engine then causes an explosive death blossom in my own backfield.
Trogg never seems to be in a big enough unit, and a few shots usually takes away his look out and kills him.

I'm seeing less and less of a need for the flaming banner, and as often as it is useful, I find it a hinder; a pair of scar vets on cold ones with a dragon helm and dragon-bane gem punish those flaming banner units.
I'd wager I see more targets with a super ward vs flaming (dragon princes and heroes with magical item wards vs fire) than I see units with regeneration.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Why do you need to have flaming attacks?
Regeneration is pretty uncommon, and things that do regenerate, you fire the pair of flaming cannons at.

You don't need the flaming attacks, but it's an added option that further knocks the 'Letters down the "why do they even exist" ladder.

If you regularly see things like Throgg WoC lists or VC builds centered around their area-effect regen buffs, it can be crucial to have that option on a M6 or M10 unit.

I'll take a pair of flaming cannons to solve both those problems thanks. I run the mortis engines, and flaming cannons are a huge problem. Not only do they kill the whole source of my regeneration, but the death of the mortis engine then causes an explosive death blossom in my own backfield.
Trogg never seems to be in a big enough unit, and a few shots usually takes away his look out and kills him.

I'm seeing less and less of a need for the flaming banner, and as often as it is useful, I find it a hinder; a pair of scar vets on cold ones with a dragon helm and dragon-bane gem punish those flaming banner units.
I'd wager I see more targets with a super ward vs flaming (dragon princes and heroes with magical item wards vs fire) than I see units with regeneration.

-Matt

It's maybe not a super advantage, but at the end of the day, being able to make use of the Banner of E. Flame is simply another point in favour of the Daemonettes when comparing to Bloodletters and/or comparing Plaguedrones to Bloodcrushers. (flaming poisoned attacks are simply funny!)

The Burny Banner's likely best home for our book would be on a Tzeentch BSB added to a max unit of Flamers as it would remove the negatives of Warpflame. Too bad there's simply no salvaging those hopeless turds though...

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm seeing less and less of a need for the flaming banner, and as often as it is useful, I find it a hinder; a pair of scar vets on cold ones with a dragon helm and dragon-bane gem punish those flaming banner units.
I'd wager I see more targets with a super ward vs flaming (dragon princes and heroes with magical item wards vs fire) than I see units with regeneration.
-Matt

This. I think it's almost a detriment to give flaming to units now. At least big combat units. Because they can't throw it away. The cannon can shoot wherever it wants. Ogre regen and Life regen and some VC regen are probably most common. I'm sure there are some 30 Troll Throgg armies but I've never seen one (or heard of one). Also Chaos Dwarfs have saves vs. flaming. I think it was a really good move to take what was always a benefit and make it not always. That's how WHFB works in just about everything. What they need now is some items/weapons that work vs. wards but not armor. There should always be a give and take. No one ever questions taking a ward, however.

Having items/weapons that negate wards would be a horrible idea as it would punch combat characters in the face even more so than they already are, and screw us over some more as well.
Look at why Wood Elf Forest Spirits are already so bad...
If we start seeing a magic weapon/items that can negate a ward save, (especially a generic BRB one), it had damn well better cost 90-100pts because that's an insanely powerful ability to give out - especially when used against an army who's paying through the nose for a ward save as it's only available defense!

If anything, the generic & similar 4+ ward items should simply be raised in cost to 50-55pts, (and make the armours that give it like 60-65pts), to make it harder to combine it alongside other killer items.
If ward saves out the wazoo is annoying people, then take Other Trickster's Shard when it's an option, and/or make more items that force a re-roll of successful ward saves or saving throws of a 6, etc...

Blade of Realities; 100 points, ignores armor and ward saves.
You don't see it used a lot (or at all) because it leaves the guy packing it without a ward save, and "only" T5 W3 and 1+ armor.
Usually, you're better off with the other tricksters shard and a normal magic weapon.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Blade of Realities; 100 points, ignores armor and ward saves.
You don't see it used a lot (or at all) because it leaves the guy packing it without a ward save, and "only" T5 W3 and 1+ armor.
Usually, you're better off with the other tricksters shard and a normal magic weapon.

-Matt

He's resilient enough, but his all-important initiative sucks.

While some armies are better off with OTS, imagine if suddenly things like Chaos Lords, or VC Blender Lords, or a Daemons Prince, or High/Dark Elf Princes/Dreadlords got access to such an item. (or god forbid our Greaters eventually get some kind of access to it)

I'd honestly rather see more items/abilities that force things like re-rolls or maybe give a -1 to ward saves rather than just outright 'ignores all ward saves'. Isn't the outright ignoring all saves one of the main reasons why people get so pissed over things like Final Trans nuking your very expensive character?!

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Blade of Realities; 100 points, ignores armor and ward saves.
You don't see it used a lot (or at all) because it leaves the guy packing it without a ward save, and "only" T5 W3 and 1+ armor.
Usually, you're better off with the other tricksters shard and a normal magic weapon.

Yeah, when liz came out I thought it was a neat concept, but not nearly as cool as the other items. Or at least as usable. Though I do like the idea that wards should be more expensive. Any Lord character in the game goes like this:

50-60pts for magic items (because you WILL buy a 4+ ward). If you do it 90% of the time, then something's not right.

In this one case, I think I'm going to disagree here.

People don't always take Ward saves because they're so sickeningly awesome; they take them because they are, overall, the best protection points can buy.

If you took out all Ward saves, you'd see those characters who used to pack the Armour of Destiny or the Talisman of Preservation switch to something like the Armour of Silvered Steel + Dawnstone (which, most of the time, actually provides better protection).

I also think that, while the idea that Flaming Attacks can be good or bad, I think it is a wondrously silly idea that the options are: negate a 4+ save or grant your opponent a 2+ save. That's just bad math, right there.

I think that an upgrade should be just that: an upgrade. If you're spending points on the thing, it should give you more advantages than it takes away.

Warpsolution wrote:
In this one case, I think I'm going to disagree here.

People don't always take Ward saves because they're so sickeningly awesome; they take them because they are, overall, the best protection points can buy.

Let me rephrase this:

"People don't always take Ward saves because they're so sickeningly awesome; they take them because they are, overall, sickeningly awesome."

Saying something is the very best in the game at something...well, if anything anywhere is sickeningly awesome, if that concept even exists, then the very best has to at least be that by definition. Unless everything just sucks in which case the least sucky is still sickeningly awesome on a sliding scale.

Armor saves are insanely inferior to ward saves. In a game that is all about rock scissors paper, wards have no counter. None at all. An armor save is negated by mega strength. Regen is negated by flaming. There's a handful of attacks that can bypass ward and they bypass armor and regen in most cases as well. In fact armor saves have a whole slew of other attacks that bypass them. Ward is clearly much better than armor and regen. The fact that in some cases it can come out worse, like to mass waves of fodder, isn't likely going to make people ever take it.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
In this one case, I think I'm going to disagree here.

People don't always take Ward saves because they're so sickeningly awesome; they take them because they are, overall, the best protection points can buy.

Let me rephrase this:

"People don't always take Ward saves because they're so sickeningly awesome; they take them because they are, overall, sickeningly awesome."

Saying something is the very best in the game at something...well, if anything anywhere is sickeningly awesome, if that concept even exists, then the very best has to at least be that by definition. Unless everything just sucks in which case the least sucky is still sickeningly awesome on a sliding scale.

Armor saves are insanely inferior to ward saves. In a game that is all about rock scissors paper, wards have no counter. None at all. An armor save is negated by mega strength. Regen is negated by flaming. There's a handful of attacks that can bypass ward and they bypass armor and regen in most cases as well. In fact armor saves have a whole slew of other attacks that bypass them. Ward is clearly much better than armor and regen. The fact that in some cases it can come out worse, like to mass waves of fodder, isn't likely going to make people ever take it.

To be fair, our own ward saves can get countered by Reign of Comedy...
I've rolled a 4 at least once in almost every single game I've played, (both Fantasy & 40k), and routinely roll it twice per game. I get the -1 result a helluva lot more often than I do the +1 ward saves result!

It would be nice if there were at least more items like OTS made available, (and give us fething access to them!), while also making the 4++ items cost 60-70pts or so for the Talisman/Armour that grant them.
Right now there's apparently some kind of secret factory out there that's mass producing Talismans of Preservation because pretty much every single Lord choice in existence can always get their hands on one.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
"People don't always take Ward saves because they're so sickeningly awesome; they take them because they are, overall, sickeningly awesome."

Saying something is the very best in the game at something...well, if anything anywhere is sickeningly awesome, if that concept even exists, then the very best has to at least be that by definition. Unless everything just sucks in which case the least sucky is still sickeningly awesome on a sliding scale.

Armor saves are insanely inferior to ward saves. In a game that is all about rock scissors paper, wards have no counter. None at all. An armor save is negated by mega strength. Regen is negated by flaming. There's a handful of attacks that can bypass ward and they bypass armor and regen in most cases as well. In fact armor saves have a whole slew of other attacks that bypass them. Ward is clearly much better than armor and regen. The fact that in some cases it can come out worse, like to mass waves of fodder, isn't likely going to make people ever take it.

Allow me to expand upon my original statement:

A 4+ Ward save cuts the number of incoming Wounds in half. So, logically, it should double a character's lifespan. But when you've only got 2 or 3 Wounds, that doesn't often amount to a lot. An Elf with a 4+ Ward is taking 1.7 wounds/turn from Chaos Warriors with halberds after that Ward save. So, that character gets to last 2 combat phases, instead of 1. Worth 45pts? Sure. Is it amazingly and stupidly awesome? I don't think so.

Ward saves are good because they protect against everything. But they're still only reducing the number of incoming wounds by 16, 33, and 50%.
How many attacks ignore armour in a given game? And how many of them are direct at your characters? A 1+ armour save is better than a 4+ Ward against the vast majority of wounds caused in Warhammer. The Dawnstone, the Trickster's Helm, and other such items offer tons more survivability than the Armour of Destiny. But there are a handful of attacks that bypass armour and the like, so people go with Ward saves.

I'm actually running my combat characters without Ward saves now, in favor of the other items. My Skaven Warlord goes from taking 1.3 wounds a turn to .3. Sure, there are times he gets picked off, because someone had a No-
Armour-Sword, or was using the Lore of Death. But in those situations, all that happened was that he went down one turn earlier. Compared to the durability I'm gaining in the other (more common) situations, I think it is well worth it.

I think that having more stuff negate Ward saves would be okay, though (like the Miscast table). I just don't think Ward saves are as amazing as people think.

There aren't a "handful" of attacks that bypass armor. Every attack with strength bypasses armor if there is enough of it. In your first example, Chaos Warriors with Halberds negate the best generic armor you can get. So the Core of an army can effectively remove the defenses of the core of every army. (Cept shield/parry). You know what they do to wards? Nothing.

You also just answered your own question. It costs 45pts to double your life expectancy. That means if your character costs 91 pts or more, you gain more wounds by having a 4+ ward than by buying another character. At higher point levels it becomes vastly cheaper. That said, multiple characters can do...multiple things. You're not just buying wounds. But the same holds true for regen/armor.

Low point characters like Skaven and O&G benefit least. Just buy more characters. But if you have like a 250pt lord character, you're getting .012 wounds per point payed. With a 4+ ward you're getting .033. Just way more cost-effective.

Sure, S5 gives you a -2 to armour. Which, yes, negates some armour. But not all of it.

That's a fair point about 45pts versus the cost of another character, but my point remains valid then, too: I can spend 45pts on the Armour of Silvered Steel that more than doubles my life expectancy versus S1-4, doubles it at 5, and less so at 6 and so on.
It's a better deal in most situations. But because Ward saves are always a decent deal, people like to go with them.
I still feel that, in situations where armour is useless, your Ward won't help you much, either. Double your life expectancy isn't much when it goes from one phase to one turn. But I suppose characters who are exceptionally tough might last longer than that. Then again, they probably have less to fear from situations where armour doesn't help, anyway, since they have a much better chance to kill their way out of it.

I get what you're saying. And again, I agree. To an extent. But I think "an upgrade should be an upgrade" is a tough line of logic to counter.