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cadbren wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Do you always make insane slippery slope arguments or only on certain days?

Guess you missed the post I made after that one.
I'm not surprised, you can be a bit obtuse about issues that don't follow a socialist agenda.

Its posts like that, and that you haven't edited the post being discussed, that lead to people making assumptions that three users (including me) already have.

 motyak wrote:

cadbren wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Do you always make insane slippery slope arguments or only on certain days?

Guess you missed the post I made after that one.
I'm not surprised, you can be a bit obtuse about issues that don't follow a socialist agenda.

Its posts like that, and that you haven't edited the post being discussed, that lead to people making assumptions that three users (including me) already have.

Which is why you should read all the posts in a thread before replying.

I think those of you who say "We hear stories!" about the NHS should be aware that you are being fed a pack of crap by a biased media which has already made it's mind up.

Lived for 2 years in the UK, the NHS is freaking awesome compared to our half assed private/public system at home.

The German system is also pretty good, but I would switch back to the NHS in a heartbeat if I could. I don't understand why people massively distrust the government but totally trust profit motivated companies to make these decisions!

cadbren wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Do you always make insane slippery slope arguments or only on certain days?

Guess you missed the post I made after that one.
I'm not surprised, you can be a bit obtuse about issues that don't follow a socialist agenda.

Nothing in Frazzled's post suggested that everyone should recieve exactly the same pay or even the same care, only that everyone ought to be gathered in one health care system. You used that statement to compare socialised medicine with Pol Pot, and I'M the one being obtuse?

 Frazzled wrote:
I'm actually against that. If you have public care, everyone from Da Queen down should have the same system. Else you'll have the good private system and the crappy public system for the worker drones.

...kind of like the US now.

Socialist!

You and Whembly's consistent endorsement that we need single-payer!

Pinko Commies!

Well the death panels can save money if the family is insisting on keeping a brain damaged vegetable breathing.

/supports

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
18 weeks? Thats four months. Thats a good bit of time. Canada was 7 months for an office comrade's mother.

For comparison... US is less than 2 months. Frequently less than a month.

For those who can afford it. For all others, waiting time is ... forever.

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
18 weeks? Thats four months. Thats a good bit of time. Canada was 7 months for an office comrade's mother.

For comparison... US is less than 2 months. Frequently less than a month.

For those who can afford it. For all others, waiting time is ... forever.

Depends... if you're on Medicare, it's about the same.

If you don't qualify for Medicare (medicaid) and don't have insurance, it's not happening unless some charity picks you up (yes, they exists).

Sill not quite sure what you want? feth those who can afford it? Because... what? It's bad that they did what they could to get insured? They should give up all their $$$ to Uncle Sam?

 whembly wrote:
They should give up all their $$$ to Uncle Sam?

There are lots of extremely wealthy people in the UK ... and yet they still have the NHS.

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:
They should give up all their $$$ to Uncle Sam?

There are lots of extremely wealthy people in the UK ... and yet they still have the NHS.

They apparently can purchase supplemental private insurance. I'd imagine that they'd get some preferential treatment in doing so....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I'm actually against that. If you have public care, everyone from Da Queen down should have the same system. Else you'll have the good private system and the crappy public system for the worker drones.

...kind of like the US now.

Socialist!

You and Whembly's consistent endorsement that we need single-payer!

Pinko Commies!

Yep. With our overall political psyche here in the states... I believe that's the direction where we're going.

If I'm a Republican, when they have control to both chambers in the house/senate (prolly in 15-20 yrs)... I'd offer singler payor like Canada in exchange for massive simplified tax reform and SS reform.

 whembly wrote:
They apparently can purchase supplemental private insurance. I'd imagine that they'd get some preferential treatment in doing so....

Not in an NHS hospital they don't

And I don't understand the mentality of being happy to pay a fortune to a private company to insure you against... well... not a great deal in some cases... and have a whole chunk of your cash skimmed off the top, yet being unhappy to pay significantly less for a national health service which covers almost anything free at the point of service.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
They apparently can purchase supplemental private insurance. I'd imagine that they'd get some preferential treatment in doing so....

Not in an NHS hospital they don't

I meant ya'll have private providers that accepts private insurance... right?

And I don't understand the mentality of being happy to pay a fortune to a private company to insure you against... well... not a great deal in some cases... and have a whole chunk of your cash skimmed off the top, yet being unhappy to pay significantly less for a national health service which covers almost anything free at the point of service.

That's just the system we have.

The biggest problem we have is the lack of visibility on each of the transaction. I've been working in healthcare for almost 15 years and I'm still amazed at this bureaucratic behemoth. o.O

 whembly wrote:
That's just the system we have.

Yes, as handed down by God right? OR we could adopt a different system.

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:
That's just the system we have.

Yes, as handed down by God right? OR we could adopt a different system.

wut?

OR, we could a DIFFERENT route than the PPACA.

 whembly wrote:
I meant ya'll have private providers that accepts private insurance... right?

We do, yes. However, if you have a heart attack, you will go to the closest NHS A&E, same with broken legs etc... you will almost always have your first point of contact for emergency care with the NHS. I don't know how many, if any, private hospitals in the UK have anything like emergency departments. Virtually all of them will be for elective surgeries and treatments.

The fact that you have private health insurance means nothing if you are not going in for a pre-arranged appointment/op/treatment in a private hospital, and the fact you have private health insurance means nothing to any treatment you get within the NHS, unless for whatever reason you elect to have your private treatment done at an NHS institution. Sometimes it can be slower, sometimes quicker - depends on what capacity they have to see private patients in NHS slots.

 whembly wrote:
OR, we could a DIFFERENT route than the PPACA.

This is where your argument gets purely hypothetical. Tell me again how you're for single payer ... you know, in some make-believe dimension beyond time and space.

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:
OR, we could a DIFFERENT route than the PPACA.

This is where your argument gets purely hypothetical. Tell me again how you're for single payer ... you know, in some make-believe dimension beyond time and space.

O.o

Cause I've said it.

Not sure where you're going with this question.

Do you posit that there's only one way to address our healthcare issues and that the PPACA is the best solution going forward?

I posit that politics is the art of the possible.

 Manchu wrote:
I posit that politics is the art of the possible.

Of course.

 whembly wrote:
The biggest problem we have is the lack of visibility on each of the transaction. I've been working in healthcare for almost 15 years and I'm still amazed at this bureaucratic behemoth. o.O

I agree. That is a huge problem and part of what makes HSA and HRA plans such a joke. How cna you pice shop when the insiurance/provider payment agreements are a trade secret?

whembly wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
They apparently can purchase supplemental private insurance. I'd imagine that they'd get some preferential treatment in doing so....

Not in an NHS hospital they don't

I meant ya'll have private providers that accepts private insurance... right?

In Canada, you can also get private insurance providers... that doesn't mean they're any better (and they are not). To use an analogy: Vancouver, BC has arguably the cleanest drinking water in the world. Yet you can still purchase bottles of water here. And sometimes those bottles of water are filled from the same water tables as is the tap water. Yet some people still purchase the privatized company's bottled water.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that many people are very stupid and often think they're getting something special because they paid much more for the same product wrapped in a slightly different package.

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
They apparently can purchase supplemental private insurance. I'd imagine that they'd get some preferential treatment in doing so....

Not in an NHS hospital they don't

I meant ya'll have private providers that accepts private insurance... right?

In Canada, you can also get private insurance providers... that doesn't mean they're any better (and they are not). To use an analogy: Vancouver, BC has arguably the cleanest drinking water in the world. Yet you can still purchase bottles of water here. And sometimes those bottles of water are filled from the same water tables as is the tap water. Yet some people still purchase the privatized company's bottled water.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that many people are very stupid and often think they're getting something special because they paid much more for the same product wrapped in a slightly different package.

Does Canada have healthcare providers that only accepts private insurance?

Anyhoo... You just reinforced The Wizard's First Rule.

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
18 weeks? Thats four months. Thats a good bit of time. Canada was 7 months for an office comrade's mother.

For comparison... US is less than 2 months. Frequently less than a month.

For those who can afford it. For all others, waiting time is ... forever.

I do believe individual provinces are allowed and do have programs with other countries (especially the US) when it comes to specific care that could be treated up faster outside of Canada. Which, you know, is fine since we'd have more than enough doctors if those that we trained didn't immediatly say 'lol, going to make $$$ in the States' the second they've finished their course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

Does Canada have healthcare providers that only accepts private insurance?

Healthcare is a provincial competence, so every provincial system works a bit differently. In Quebec you pay out of your taxes. In Alberta, you have a bi-monthly invoice. Some provinces allow for a two speed system, some others don't.

But no, I don't think there's any healthcare providers that only accept private insurance.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
18 weeks? Thats four months. Thats a good bit of time. Canada was 7 months for an office comrade's mother.

For comparison... US is less than 2 months. Frequently less than a month.

For those who can afford it. For all others, waiting time is ... forever.

I do believe individual provinces are allowed and do have programs with other countries (especially the US) when it comes to specific care that could be treated up faster outside of Canada. Which, you know, is fine since we'd have more than enough doctors if those that we trained didn't immediatly say 'lol, going to make $$$ in the States' the second they've finished their course.

Get them graduating docs under contract first!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

Does Canada have healthcare providers that only accepts private insurance?

Healthcare is a provincial competence, so every provincial system works a bit differently. In Quebec you pay out of your taxes. In Alberta, you have a bi-monthly invoice. Some provinces allow for a two speed system, some others don't.

Interesting... I'm curious what is the percentage of this tax is taken out of your wages. I'm assuming that it's only a tax on your working wage...right? What if you're stupid rich and don't work?

But no, I don't think there's any healthcare providers that only accept private insurance.

Figures... how does the "two speed system" generally work?

I have never been billed for healtcare, its part of the normal tax rate, not sure where that bi monthly billing is coming from for albertains... as im albertan, and dont pay bi monthly, its just rolled into my standard tax deduction from my payroll cheques.

I pay about 30% in taxes, last I checked it was comparable to the states, so it really doesnt cost more to run a national health care system, because all the extra beauracracy/middlemen that is part of the US system, basically isnt up here. because the system isnt geared towards making money/denying claims, its a lot easier to run (this is what people who work in healthcare tell me anyways) and the bill always goes to the same person.



as for "death panels" I think its really a moot issue... some one has to decide when enough is enough for non responsive long term ICU "pull the plug" type scenarios, and if all of canada is footing the bill so to speak, then "all of canada" has a say in when enough is enough and that $ or equiptment can be directed to people who will actually come out alive/healed from it.

dont really see why its called a "death panel", other then to freak out people...

 easysauce wrote:

I have never been billed for healtcare, its part of the normal tax rate, not sure where that bi monthly billing is coming from for albertains... as im albertan, and dont pay bi monthly, its just rolled into my standard tax deduction from my payroll cheques.

I pay about 30% in taxes, last I checked it was comparable to the states, so it really doesnt cost more to run a national health care system, because all the extra beauracracy/middlemen that is part of the US system, basically isnt up here. because the system isnt geared towards making money/denying claims, its a lot easier to run (this is what people who work in healthcare tell me anyways) and the bill always goes to the same person.

Cool...

One of the reasons why I'm in favor of the Canadian model... Hockey and Maple Syrup for the win!

as for "death panels" I think its really a moot issue... some one has to decide when enough is enough for non responsive long term ICU "pull the plug" type scenarios, and if all of canada is footing the bill so to speak, then "all of canada" has a say in when enough is enough and that $ or equiptment can be directed to people who will actually come out alive/healed from it.

dont really see why its called a "death panel", other then to freak out people...

"death panel" is designed to get outrage... because of The Wizard's First Rule.

 easysauce wrote:

I have never been billed for healtcare, its part of the normal tax rate, not sure where that bi monthly billing is coming from for albertains... as im albertan, and dont pay bi monthly, its just rolled into my standard tax deduction from my payroll cheques.

How long have you been paying for Healthcare? I was in Ab up until ... 2008( I think...?) and I would receive an invoice (which, being totally irresponsible, I never paid), maybe things changed since then?

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
They apparently can purchase supplemental private insurance. I'd imagine that they'd get some preferential treatment in doing so....

Not in an NHS hospital they don't

I meant ya'll have private providers that accepts private insurance... right?

In Canada, you can also get private insurance providers... that doesn't mean they're any better (and they are not). To use an analogy: Vancouver, BC has arguably the cleanest drinking water in the world. Yet you can still purchase bottles of water here. And sometimes those bottles of water are filled from the same water tables as is the tap water. Yet some people still purchase the privatized company's bottled water.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that many people are very stupid and often think they're getting something special because they paid much more for the same product wrapped in a slightly different package.

Oh man that's a whole other can of worms. The bottle water is actually worse and more undafe. So yes, people are actually paying for worse water. Drives me crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In BC you have to pay like $36 or $56 bucks month and you get Healthcare. Most employers pay for it though that's why I don't even know what it is.

 whembly wrote:

Interesting... I'm curious what is the percentage of this tax is taken out of your wages. I'm assuming that it's only a tax on your working wage...right? What if you're stupid rich and don't work?

We have a very small ''Health contribution tax'' on our income declaration, between 0-300$ depending on your income. Otherwise it's taken out of our pay as provincial taxation. For a single individual without kids, it doesn't vary much from US levels of taxation. Couples with kids and slightly better than average income will have somewhere around 40-45% of taxation.

 whembly wrote:

Figures... how does the "two speed system" generally work?

Beyond ''private clinics cost you cash but are faster to go through'', I don't know. It's an emerging system and I'm sure there's a lot of legislation around making sure it doesn't unbalance the public system.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

I have never been billed for healtcare, its part of the normal tax rate, not sure where that bi monthly billing is coming from for albertains... as im albertan, and dont pay bi monthly, its just rolled into my standard tax deduction from my payroll cheques.

How long have you been paying for Healthcare? I was in Ab up until ... 2008( I think...?) and I would receive an invoice (which, being totally irresponsible, I never paid), maybe things changed since then?

Like a monthly bill? Can't be per use. Surprised old moneybags Alberta has that. They don't even have sales tax.