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I'm not a big fan of the MM attack bike. Its just to many points for what it provides in this codex. Other bikes went down in price, while it went up. Another GW 'mystery'.

Grav gun saturation certainly does help kick the snot out of MEQ. For those cost of 2 grav guns you could buy ~1.5 more bikes. So compare the damage output.

1 normal bike will kill the following...
(8/9 hit) * (2/3 wound) * 2 shots = 1.19 GEQ dead
(8/9 hit) * (1/2 wound) (1/3 fail save) * 2 shots = .3 MEQ dead

2 grav guns will kill the following...
(2/3 hit) * (1/3 wound) * 6 shots = 1.33 GEQ dead
(2/3 hit) * (2/3 wound) * 6 shots = 2.66 MEQ dead

Those are our baseline ratios for how much 2 grav guns will kill vs 1 TL bolter. So we know that we can take 1.5 and multiple it by the TL bolter value to see how much better grav guns are. Well, we know off the top that vs GEQ bolters are better when within 12", so we can skip the rest of that calculation.

So lets look at MEQ. We also need to include the opportunity cost of the 2 bikes that bought grav guns -- as they are not shooting their bolters! This means were going to multiply the base TL bolter damage by 3.5 and compare that to the grav gun damage (based upon 2 oppertunity cost shots plus the 1.5 bikes you could buy for 30 points)

.3 (TL bolter MEQ kills) * 3.5 = 1.05. This means that by buying that extra body your hurting your damage quite a bit against MEQ but not at all vs GEQ.
(Ok, so its a bit less. The TL bolter to kill MEQ was rounded by .045 and the bikes are not quite 1.5 times as much, but its a good rough estimate for illustration purposes)

However, its not like buying grav guns is going to s***can your MEQ damage completely. Remember that even in a 5 man squad, your still bringing 3 guys with bolters. That means that 5 bikes w/2 grav guns and 6.5 bikes all with bolters are closer than those numbers might initially show.

If you dig this concept, listen to the next 11th company podcast coming out this week. I did a simhammer segment on squad sizes and how they effect your DPP/RPPvalues.

 l0k1 wrote:
So now that I'm interested in the bike builds. Can someone give a run down of the basic strategy and tactics?

1) Get a captain or a chapter master (including Khan, all different flavours)

2) Field 5man bike squads with 2 specials. I also prefer including combi-weapons, as it helps force concentration

3) Ensure you have mobile melta (attack bikes (eh,,,,), dreads, LotD, scout speeders with melta/bombs/combi/multi's etc as preffered.) OR/AND Long-range anti-tank

4) Ensure you have anti-air.

Done.

I am trying (1500pts);
Khan
3 5man bikes (2 grav, 1 plasma)
2 Speeder scouts (flamer, combi melta + bombs)
Drop pod dread with HF & MM
LotD (MM, melta, combi grav)
Storm Talon (+ Skyhammer)
Stalker
2 TFC

Thanks Razerous! What about tactics? Are you constantly moving to keep up the jink save? Do you zip up, shoot, assault, then hit n run at the end if the assault during the opponent's turn?

Sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions but I'm just trying to get a better idea of the tactics.

@Razerous
Not a bad list. There are a few points I would like to express my agreement and disagreement on;
-I personally would not mix plasma and grav. I understand why you might do so but I feel that in this case the plasma doesn't really give you anything.

-I would drop the scouts for more bikes and a possible 5 man TAC squad.

-Speaking of TAC squad I would take a stormraven if you only take 1 flyer. This doubles your chance to explode a helldrake (45% chance) and lets you transport the TAC squad in relative safety. A MM/LC stormraven is excellent for killing the biggest flyer threat to a bike list; turkeys.

-TFC is one of the biggest aids to a biker list. It keeps the opponent's units spread out so you can face them 2-3 pts to 1. It also is one of the best ways to deal with many of the more annoying daemon units which grav flop against. 2 of them is the perfect balance.

-LotD; interestingly I am really liking the MM/Melta/combi-melta LotD. They come in and remove something expensive. They then make for a great distraction unit to let you move freely. They combined with TFC give you tremendous tactical flexibility.

-I really like khan as I consider scout a great investment. It is not just about rushing forward but rather about always starting the game in the perfect position.

@labmouse42
I agree that the MM attack bikes are probably not worth it in most situations. I think there may be some specialized builds where they would be good but overall I agree.

@Thread
If you want to bring a chapter master with khan I would recommend taking an IH allies detachment and put the vehicles, scouts/TAC squad, etc. in that detachment so they get the wonderful IWND and +6 FnP rules. A IH chapter master with artificer armour and shield eternal is a ridiculous tanking character averaging 65 hits from a baleflamer to kill over the course of a game. Not to mention a very effective melee character. If you decide to run a command squad I would highly recommend him.

As for tactics the game becomes more tactical the more movement matters. In a bike army you are paying ~25% of your points for movement abilities (bikes), so you better use it to max advantage. This means that you should always fight from the range that suits you best;
-Against Tau (you have first turn); I would recommend being outside 15" of most of their guys during their shooting turn.The Tau player should not be able to bunch up freely due to your TFC (you did take 2 of them right?) so this means about ~18" for most armies (so you have a shot at a turn 2 charge). Make sure you kill the riptides with grav and the markerlights with TFC.
-Against Tau (they have first turn); If you are lucky you can get a turn 1 charge. If not then same as above.
-IG/stuff worse than you in CC; charge in and try to fight them from the 12.1" mark until you can charge them. Stay in CC then H&R out. A another useful thing against IG with a lot of artillery is to move up so your bikes are 1.1" from their units so they cannot place templates. Don't forget you can focus fire to snipe special weapons out.
-CC is better than you; deploy in a long broad string and then scout into whichever flank you have the advantage in. Don't forget that most of the khorne stuff isn't as scary if you charge it and depleted units make great chaff to slow the opponent's advance. Also make note if they brought any effective blast weapons because if they do not you no longer have to space out...this can be huge as you can fight them at hugely favorable odds.
-Daemons; They get special mention as they are the worst match up. Khorne dogs are you that can kill you if they get a charge. Layer like an onion so they cannot multi charge. Never shoot a unit with the grimoire on it as it will just waste firepower. The best you can do is tarpit them. TFC and focus fire/LoS sniping are your friend in killing grimoire heralds. Kill the grimoire first even if you have to sacrifice more points than the grimoire unit is worth. Think of the grimoire as 25% of the value of all daemon units and you probably won't be entirely wrong. The most important thing is you need to not allow the daemon player to envelope you. If you refuse a flank and fight your way out one side or you split their army and fight the fight on two fronts it will help you.
-Helldrakes; this unit is an entire strategy shift to itself. It single handedly invalidates RW only biker builds as if you don't kill it or don't have the ability to tank the wounds you will loose. A tanking CM can help mitigate it and getting into CC to then H&R out can invalidate it. You should always run the calculation in your head; will the unit I can charge kill 3-4 models in 2 turns of CC? If no and a helldrake is rampaging then charge! Luckily the SM dex has the best hellturkey killers in the game; stormraven (50% chance to explode) and double stormtalon flyovers (2.3 HP avg and 25% chance to explode). If you take IG (forgeworld) or Tau allies they can do this even better with interceptor.

Sorry for rambling. Hopefully there is something useful in that wall of text.

I keep seeing people taking characters to tank wounds. Explain how this is done? Is it simply giving them a good save and making them eternal warrior somehow, and then putting them closest to any incoming fire and letting them make armor saves? If they fail one or two they won't die...am I correct?

General Hobbs wrote:


I keep seeing people taking characters to tank wounds. Explain how this is done? Is it simply giving them a good save and making them eternal warrior somehow, and then putting them closest to any incoming fire and letting them make armor saves? If they fail one or two they won't die...am I correct?

In general yes. Except in this case it is fail 4 saves+FnP and not get any wounds back from IWND. Also take note that you usually just tank the stuff that the rest of the squad doesn't get saves against. The wounds they do get saves against are usually LOS on a 2+ onto the unit.

I want to play more and see (and see more play) with scout speeders & scout squads. I feel they compliment bike squads nicely and the cerberus launcher, it has some nice potential. Also I think the scouting heavy flamers/combi-melta (/5 krak grenades) also syngenesis well with the TFC & scouting bikes. TFC miss out on AP4 ignoring cover(its rival, the whirlwind); a role very neatly filled by a heavy flamer.

As for grav vs plasma... Daemons.., vehicles..,But perhaps I could agree, you will be rolling lots of dice!

 ansacs wrote:
Sorry for rambling. Hopefully there is something useful in that wall of text.

There was a lot of useful stuff in that post! Thanks for taking the time to ramble.

Thanks. Though in all that rambling I never touched on probably the most unique aspect to my bike builds...I bring an ADL. I set it up to in front of where I will scout modified for terrain and not at all where I will scout for MTO style CC forces. It gives me turn 1 cover and difficult terrain if someone gets cute with trying to charge me. It also gives you a convenient cover save in case you need to retreat a squad (KPs) and there is something that ignores jink (Dark Reapers...cough). This is why I am convinced IG allies would make for an unreal combination in my forces.

BTW labmouse42 I would appreciate the RPP and DPP (vs helldrake) of stormraven, stormtalon, vendetta, vulture, and LC sabre platforms. I have a gut feeling that the stormraven will be one of the best overall but the vulture or sabre platforms will edge it out. Thanks in advance.

 ansacs wrote:
BTW labmouse42 I would appreciate the RPP and DPP (vs helldrake) of stormraven, stormtalon, vendetta, vulture, and LC sabre platforms. I have a gut feeling that the stormraven will be one of the best overall but the vulture or sabre platforms will edge it out. Thanks in advance.

This is a hard question to analyze. The reason is that the vulture and stormravens have a good chance of causing an effect (rolling on damage table) when they cause damage, where the vulture and storm talon are just trying to strip hull points.

Vulture
This thing is completely over the top, and if any tourney is running forgeworld, you would be a fool not to take 3 of them. They have a staggering DPPvs GEQ of 105 and vs MEQ they bring 36.

When shooting at a helldrake, they cannot hurt it from the front or side, but since they have vector dancer they should usually be getting rear arc shots. When they have made that rear arc shot, they will deliver - on average 3.83 hull points of damage. Plugging this into a DPP calculator gives a value of 24 vs helldrake.

Sabre Platform
These things are dirt cheap, which is great, but they have a few problems. First they only have one shot, so even with a TL weapon, they are going to be causing damage on a helldrake .333 of the time. Plugging it in the calculator we get a value of 6.41 against the helldrake.

As mentioned, any effects rolled will be AP2, so if it does roll on the chart, the result is more likely to be a dangerous one. However, if your choice is Sabre Platform or Vulture -- the answer is obvious.

Vendetta
Vendettas are 130 points, and have the same firepower as 3 sabre platforms. As you can well imagine that makes them slightly better vs the helldrake than the sabre platforms. Their DPPrate is 7.69

Storm Raven
These guys are work horses, with a DPPvs GEQ of 49.4 and a DPPvs MEQ of 22. Those values are slightly better than wave serpents. This means that 3 storm ravens bring a LOT of firepower.

Against the helldrake their number is a 6.01 due to the number of shots. However, this number only shows hull points stripped. Remember that one of them is a TL MM - which has a 54.3% chance of causing damage, and probably will roll on the effect table. Any effect from an AP1 weapon is very bad news. At best the helldrake is stunned, and has a 50% of just exploding out of the sky. In addition, there are 2 missiles that are shot that have a 44% of causing damage -- and those are AP2 effects.

So while the storm raven does not have a high number associated with it, I want to give it some marks for bringing the right tools for the job.

Storm Talons
Cheap light flyers, these things sport a DPP of 26 against GEQ and 17.7 against MEQ. These are respectable numbers against MEQ but not that hot vs GEQ. This should make sense as the talons deliver a 7 high strength shots instead of multiple low strength shots. They are on par DPP wise as GHs at a 20" range. (when equipped with a dual plasma guns)

Strom talons have 3 values against the helldrake. First, if your shooting at the front of a helldrake, your value will be a 6.71. If your shooting just the assault cannon at the rear of the helldrake (which happens often since its turrent mounted) your value is 9.48. If you managed to get in the rear arc your value is 13.03. The most common value here will be the 9.48.

Like the vulture, your goal is to glance them to death.

Tell it to me straight doc!
Vulture........... 24.7
Storm Talon....9.48
Vendetta.........7.7 (AP2 effects)
Sabre............. 6.4 (AP2 effects)
Storm Raven...6.01 (AP1/2 effects)
For stripping hull points the vulture is the best. If your looking to blow up in one hit, the raven/vendetta are best.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Sabre Platform
These things are dirt cheap, which is great, but they have a few problems. First they only have one shot, so even with a TL weapon, they are going to be causing damage on a helldrake .333 of the time. Plugging it in the calculator we get a value of 6.41 against the helldrake.

As mentioned, any effects rolled will be AP2, so if it does roll on the chart, the result is more likely to be a dangerous one. However, if your choice is Sabre Platform or Vulture -- the answer is obvious.

See this is my only problem with DPP... It fails to include other costs and bonuses. (Just clarifying I am a great fan of all your maths and simhammer, so don't get me wrong here i'm not disagreeing )
Sabre platforms not only have interceptor, but also start on the board. This means you are much much more likely to be able to neutralise the helldrake before it can do damage.
Furthermore, the sabre platforms are much more easily spammed if required, and as such scale well with increasing points (due to their slots not becoming contested).
Finally, you could confirm this if you like, but as Artillery I'm fairly certain the sabres would have a better RPP value than any of the other solutions presented.

Other than that, good analysis

Does Artillery have any bonus' for penetrating armor? I know that ordnance, melta, rending, and tank hunter give bonus' to armor pen -- but does artillery?

Note : With the sabre platforms your getting interceptor, which is valueable. Remember that against the helldrake you only have a 1/3 chance of causing damage on the helldrake. (and probably an effect)

This is because the sabre platform has a .75 chance to hit * .66667% to damage * .66667% failed save to effect the drake. That means that the sabre is not as hot at it might first appear at stopping the drake.

The problem is the lack of shots. At 52 points a pop they are cheap, but point for point the vendetta is better (132 vs 156). The vendetta is also more mobile, is a transport, and can get more heavy bolters. Its overall the better choice.

On the subject of shots, that's why the vector dancing Vulture is so off the hook, because it delivers 20 shots at the rear armor of the drake, which will mostly likely wreck it from the sky.

In general, I prefer 5 man bikes squads + an attack bike. This allows a buffer of two bikes that can die and no real effectiveness is lost. Upgrading bikes with a veteran is a must these days, since their leadership took a hit.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Does Artillery have any bonus' for penetrating armor? I know that ordnance, melta, rending, and tank hunter give bonus' to armor pen -- but does artillery?

Sorry, I should've been clearer: when I mentioned artillery I was referring to RPP (i.e. the sabres last longer against a lot of things compared to the vendetta/stormraven/vulture etc for the points)

Note : With the sabre platforms your getting interceptor, which is valueable. Remember that against the helldrake you only have a 1/3 chance of causing damage on the helldrake. (and probably an effect)

This is because the sabre platform has a .75 chance to hit * .66667% to damage * .66667% failed save to effect the drake. That means that the sabre is not as hot at it might first appear at stopping the drake.

The problem is the lack of shots. At 52 points a pop they are cheap, but point for point the vendetta is better (132 vs 156). The vendetta is also more mobile, is a transport, and can get more heavy bolters. Its overall the better choice.

-Mobility isn't an issue with 48" range and scout.
-Transport doesn't really matter as taking sabres lends to a different style of guard contingent to be taken.
-Taking heavy bolters on a vendetta is generally a bad use of points, and isn't worth it.
-3 sabres have the exact same likelihood to kill a helldrake as a vendetta, and for that measly 26pts you gain a lot of benefits (I will surmise later).

On the subject of shots, that's why the vector dancing Vulture is so off the hook, because it delivers 20 shots at the rear armor of the drake, which will mostly likely wreck it from the sky.

Yeah the vulture is a beauty of a bird. Only let down by its lack of transport capacity. However for downing a drake I'd still rather have the sabres.
I'll surmise:
Relative Advantages for 3 Sabres
-On board from turn one: no reserve rolls needed. Therefore can kill something in that turn while the flyers are in reserve.
-Interceptor means it can take shots the turn the drake comes in, potentially killing it before it strikes.
-3 separate targets mean harder to kill.
-Not forced to make an 18" move every turn or be certainly killed.
-Has a total of 12 T6 (7?) W, half of which have a 3+, compared to AV12 3HP flying.
-Can't be one-shotted or intercepted.
-Scoring. 'Nuff said.
-More easily spammed in an allied contingent, doesn't compete with other slots.

Relative Disadvantages for 3 Sabres
-Can't move.
-Killed in assault easily.
-Affected by a wider range of weaponry.
-Lower DPP than vulture or vendetta.
-Less multi-purpose than vulture.
-26pts or 1pt more expensive respectively to vendetta or vulture.

Relative Advantages for Vendetta
-Higher DPP.
-Cheaper.
-More mobile.
-Can transport scoring units.
-Can only be harmed by S6+, and skyfire needed to effectively deal with one.
-Opponent can't kill it before it has a chance to shoot (unless intercepted or it comes on before the drake).
-You're probably taking one anyway.
-Heldrake itself can't kill it as easily.

Relative Disadvantages for Vendetta
-Has to move 18" every turn or risk almost certain destruction.
-Can only pivot up to 90 degrees so can be avoided.
-Not able to hold objectives (unless scouring and objective placed on very high tower or something).
-Can be one-shotted and is less resilient than Sabres.
-Limited firing arcs.
-Can only take one in an allied contingent, and competes with vulture.
-If destroyed it will likely kill the unit inside and possibly kill nearby models.
-Can be intercepted.
-Reserves is basically a no-win situation: if it comes on first, it has no drake to shoot; if it comes on second, the drake already torched a unit of bikes.

Relative Advantages for Vulture
-MUCH Higher DPP.
-Cheaper (just).
-More mobile.
-Can only be harmed by S6+, and skyfire needed to effectively deal with one.
-Opponent can't kill it before it has a chance to shoot (unless intercepted or it comes on before the drake).
-EXCELLENT at killing other things - especially infantry.
-Heldrake itself can't kill it as easily.
-Vector Dancer

Relative Disadvantages for Vulture
-Has to move 18" every turn or risk almost certain destruction.
-Getting rear armour can leave its own rear vulnerable.
-Not able to hold objectives (unless scouring and objective placed on very high tower or something).
-Can be one-shotted and is less resilient than Sabres.
-Limited firing arcs.
-Can only take one in an allied contingent, and competes with vulture.
-If destroyed it will possibly kill nearby models.
-Can be intercepted.
-Reserves is basically a no-win situation: if it comes on first, it has no drake to shoot; if it comes on second, the drake already torched a unit of bikes.

I think I covered most things with that. Sorry for the wall of text. Basically I would say it comes down to the sabres or the vulture, depending on whether you need more anti-infantry power or not (you probably do). Either way, I wouldn't take the vendetta in this case.

That's an excellent write up.

 labmouse42 wrote:
That's an excellent write up.

Thank you

@Tactical_Genius
Very nice summary.

I would like to add a few items to it.
-Advantage for sabres'; their ability to take orders from an officer and therefore gain reroll successful cover saves or GtG and then be order back into the fight.
-Advantage for Vendettas; can take up to 3 in a squad. If you are serious about killing a helldrake then taking 3 vendettas gives you a 60% chance to nuke it.
-You may want to note that transport capacity for GEQ is probably not a huge benefit in a SM biker list. It definitely should be noted but probably not a priority.

@Labmouse42
I like your DPP formula and I think it works well for GEQ, MEQ, and TEQ killing. Have you thought of a weighting it with an explodes results? You use the average HP so if we use a weighted approache then we could factor in explodes. An example would be for the stormraven (LC/MM) does; 1.38 HP on average and has a 50% chance to explode the hellturkey. You could then do; [(% chance to explode)/50%]*(HP of vehicle) and add that to the HP stripped on average. This would give you sort of HP damage done on average over time (which is more or less what all statistics are). For a stormraven this would be 21.9 DPP against a helldrake. This puts it where it should be as averaging a dead helldrake a turn the same as a vulture.

Not only explode but there are other effects that are just as good. For example, a weapon destroyed on a hellturkey is pretty keen. Locked velocity will also reduce the vector strike capability.

I'll have to put some brainpower into the best way to handle it. There has to be a formula to calculate it. The concept of DPP is really just 'how many models can you kill per point" broken up into a readable number.

So logically you would need to simply add the chances of each hit causing an 'explosion' to the hull point damage calculation. This would apply for all hits. This is similar to how I calculate rending (each rending weapon has 2 profiles, one for wounds less than 6, one for when its rends on a six)

Sorry -- just rambling and thinking out loud while I bang away on the keyboard.

Keen to see where this discussion goes...

I dont have much advise to offer, but when i play on vassal i run with 2 TFCs and 2 STs and do very well. IMO, this is some great support for bikes

I found that a whirlwind and a Rifleman dread was good support for Ravenwing. does that translate too WS?

TBH, with the option for a TFC, i cant see the need for ever taking a whirlwind

 labmouse42 wrote:
Not only explode but there are other effects that are just as good. For example, a weapon destroyed on a hellturkey is pretty keen. Locked velocity will also reduce the vector strike capability.

I'll have to put some brainpower into the best way to handle it. There has to be a formula to calculate it. The concept of DPP is really just 'how many models can you kill per point" broken up into a readable number.

So logically you would need to simply add the chances of each hit causing an 'explosion' to the hull point damage calculation. This would apply for all hits. This is similar to how I calculate rending (each rending weapon has 2 profiles, one for wounds less than 6, one for when its rends on a six)

Sorry -- just rambling and thinking out loud while I bang away on the keyboard.

I've written a program that can calculate the average number of destroyed results per shooting phase for a given set of a weapons (and thus, a given unit) and calculate its effectiveness against a specified AV/save combination. Right now it can only handle a small collection of special rules (armourbane, graviton, tank hunters, rending, twin-linked) but I'm working on more. It's given me some interesting results, especially when I've calculated against fliers.

I'll be posting more information once I've got it up and running reliably.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I found that a whirlwind and a Rifleman dread was good support for Ravenwing. does that translate too WS?

In my experiences in 40k, 'a' unit of anything doesn't do well at all, as 40k is all about redundancy. A single unit is easy enough to counter, whereas two of them usually isn't as much.

Ricter wrote:I've written a program that can calculate the average number of destroyed results per shooting phase for a given set of a weapons (and thus, a given unit) and calculate its effectiveness against a specified AV/save combination. Right now it can only handle a small collection of special rules (armourbane, graviton, tank hunters, rending, twin-linked) but I'm working on more. It's given me some interesting results, especially when I've calculated against fliers.

I'll be posting more information once I've got it up and running reliably.

I would be very interested in this whenever you get it ironed out.

 ansacs wrote:

Ricter wrote:I've written a program that can calculate the average number of destroyed results per shooting phase for a given set of a weapons (and thus, a given unit) and calculate its effectiveness against a specified AV/save combination. Right now it can only handle a small collection of special rules (armourbane, graviton, tank hunters, rending, twin-linked) but I'm working on more. It's given me some interesting results, especially when I've calculated against fliers.

I'll be posting more information once I've got it up and running reliably.

I would be very interested in this whenever you get it ironed out.

It's working currently, but only can handle the special rules listed above so far. It can handle different AVs and defensive saves as well.

 l0k1 wrote:
Anyone have a link to a basic list/tactics thread for a bike army I can look through?

They're pre-current SM 'dex, but the battle reports in my sig might give you some ideas...