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 labmouse42 wrote:
Well, here's the problem. The lack of attacks means they won't be killing guard left and right. Let me show you.

(2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/2 failed Azrael save) * 2 (number of attacks) = 5/9 wounds per marine per round.
So 5 TH/SS termies will be killing 2.78 guard per assault phase.
So in 7.2 full game turns they will kill the blob, assuming that no termies are killed.

However, your guard will be striking back.
(1/2 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/6 failed save) * 50 attacks = 50/36 wounds, or 1.38 marines per turn.
That is not even including the sergeants with power axes, or Azrael hitting.

So whats going to happen is the terminators is they get ground away killing guard.
This is because terminators are the wrong tools to be using against guard blobs. TH/SS terminators are great at killing MEQ or hard targets like riptides.
Seekers of slaanesh, Khorne hounds, Assault marines, Honor guard, etc are how you kill guard blobs. You want to use lots of low strength attack to kill guard.

That large blob of guard destroyed my:
- 6 death company marines + a reclusiarch
- dual blood talon death company dreadnaught

Both of those units whould shred guard, but with a 50 man blob with 4++ inv. Every wound has 50/50 chance for being saved. The math is against me here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That blob is so large, that it makes impossible to use eg. Termies against any other unit. All tanks, dev, etc are screened by a mass of guardsman

I've actually played against this multiple times, the easiest way to deal with it is to ignore it. They move slow enough for you to move around it and stay out of the way.

At the end of the day its just guardsmen with a 4+ inv and a few Sgts or w/e to guard his HQ. Just go about your business like they weren't there. Not a huge threat.

Labmouse, your math is a little off. While if you got the statistical avarge then you would infact kill about 1 terminator a turn however you will only have 40 guys once and also you are forgetting that there is no way that every single guardsmen will get to attack. They just can't get that many guys croweded around 5 marines. Also even with power axes, you still have a 3++ and the odds of those hitting a pretty low.

Yes, not every guard will be able to attack, but every sergeant will have 3 attacks -- and there will be 5 of those, plus Azrael.

Also both squads will be losing killing power as time passes. So before the terminators swing they will lose 1 model then kill a few IG.

The end result is still the same -- the terminators just grind away on a blob. They are the wrong tool for the job.

Of course the guard player could just sprinkle a few plasmas in there, twinlinking them with the primaris.

Also they guard will lose that combate, every single round. And then pretty much auto-fail their ld, thus falling back.

Azrael makes them fearless.

Does he? Well still, your looking at losing 5-8 guardsmen every turn. And win or lose that squad will be useless the rest of the game. Assuming the combate even ends before the game does.

Why are people under estimating this unit in combat, combat simply isn't the right way to deal it. 5 Thunder Hammer termies would get smashed, 5 power axes plus either priest or primaris with force axe will kill a termie or 2, then add guard hits killing a termie. You want to know the only combat unit that can deal with them in the best way, with no chance of failure assuming you make combat that is Space Wolf exclusive?

Bjorn the fell handed, his AV 13 in combat means that the guard can't touch him, and because they are fearless they cannot run away. Boom, done. The only hard part will be getting him there safely, but being a ven dread with a 5+ invul he should be pretty safe. Best take some drop pod wolf guard with combie meltas to handle anything that could take him out first turn, otherwise run straight at him, all the while singing 'Can't touch this'.

Well honestly that doesn't work ether, if they have melta bombs. And 5 power axes does not = 5 dead terminators as they may not even get to attack, and even if they do they still have a 3++ that the power axe does jack about.

longfangs with heavy bolters and runepriest.

I run dark angles, Azzy is actually a pretty good combat character, and can lay a fairly respectable beat down. And with so many sargez to accept challenges, theres no reason for him to maul anything but the toughest units sent to hit them in close combat.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Does he? Well still, your looking at losing 5-8 guardsmen every turn. And win or lose that squad will be useless the rest of the game. Assuming the combate even ends before the game does.

How can 5 TH/SS terminators kill 40 guard with 4 sergeants + Azrael at a rate of 5-8 a turn.
Please show your mathwork. I think you will be surprised when you run the numbers.

As mentioned, SW have ways of dealing with the guard blob, but TH/SS terminators are not them.

trying to attack a guard blob with terminators is a terribad idea - just with the number of attacks its pointless

with the libby + primarius psyker he isn't going to let you challenge azzy to be aware before you charge a wolf lord on a thunderwolf in for that reason - also the IG psyker cannot take divination only DA

using space wolves against the blob .... JOTWW is your friend, maybe try running 2-3 rune priests in drop pods - with grey hunters or tda wolf guard (your flavor, tda just to keep the RPs alive) .... throwing 2+ JOTWW into the blob a turn will thin it out more than most things you can bring to bear

besides JOTWW, vindicators & whirl winds - i wouldn't recommend this last option ,but multiple LRC's with 14 bloodclaws + HQ/WG (flamer/combi-flamer on the blood claws / WG) multi charging into it would make short work of the blob

but I think your best bet dealing with it is spamming JOTWW at him.

Heavy Bolter devastators/Longfangs, Vindicators, Heck, send in an IC that can smack Azrael.

This will force him to either sacrifice Azrael in a challenge, or tie him up indefinitely by forcing him to keep feeding you sergeants, making the rest of the blob useless.

A thunderfire Cannon is your friend. A buddy of mine likes to use a DA Libby with PFG in his guard blob. One volley from that TFC caused 23 wounds, and because of barrage all had to go through the libby first. He lost the libby and 14 guardsmen from one gun, then my second TFC made mince meat out the rest of them.

I ran a guard blob with Azrael all of this year. Remember to take Azrael he has to be your warlord so that means Dark Angels is Primary so the list is probably just infantry with not many tanks. The pros of the blob.
Its 4++ and fearless so being a troop unit you have to kill it to the man in obj missions.
I ran mine with krak grenades and trust me you will kill any MC before it kills you. Also being able to wreck any vehicles with back armor value 12. 50 krak grenades are dirty.
Its footprint is huge and can control alot of the board.

Here are the cons.
Its just a 4+ save with T3. Mass shooting and then charging it can really bring it down. Just keep shooting it.
Play the mission. Kill everything else since it can only kill one thing at a time like any other deathstar.
Blasts and flamers really hurt same as tank explosions.
If he isnt running krak grenades take a couple of dreadnoughs and charge it. He wont have any real way of kiiling them.

Trust me its strong but wait until you run into a forewarned grimoire rerollable 2++ invul save with multiwound models being known as the screamer star
Or
A seer council on bikes that is Fortuned and Protected and also being accompanied by Baron Sathonix.

 Julnlecs wrote:
I ran a guard blob with Azrael all of this year. Remember to take Azrael he has to be your warlord so that means Dark Angels is Primary.

I think you're confused there. Azreal has to be the warlord IF DA are the primary detachment, the DA don't have to be primary just because you take him (although by not taking him as primary, you lose his choosable warlord trait and his FOC shifts, so it's a bit of a waste).

What a particularly gruesome piece of loyalist nastiness.

The key here, obviously, is taking out Azrael, either in a challenge of through a called shot. This would be one of the few situations where the Murder Sword would be useful for a Chaos player.

 techsoldaten wrote:
What a particularly gruesome piece of loyalist nastiness.

The key here, obviously, is taking out Azrael, either in a challenge of through a called shot. This would be one of the few situations where the Murder Sword would be useful for a Chaos player.

That isn't so easy. I have both chalenged and precision shoot Azrael more than few times. Yet, no matter the number of wounds, he can always "Look out sir!" them on a 4++. And even if the inv is failed, he still have plenty of IG units left.

Why not just throw a Dreadnaught at it? After thinking about on it, this seems like the easiest solution besides avoiding it.

The blob is slow.

That squad, besides Azrael has few meltabombs.

I find D-STR weapons work well against these blobs.

What...too soon?

The expansion is on the way....

(Not super serious, BTW)

gausus wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
What a particularly gruesome piece of loyalist nastiness.

The key here, obviously, is taking out Azrael, either in a challenge of through a called shot. This would be one of the few situations where the Murder Sword would be useful for a Chaos player.

That isn't so easy. I have both chalenged and precision shoot Azrael more than few times. Yet, no matter the number of wounds, he can always "Look out sir!" them on a 4++. And even if the inv is failed, he still have plenty of IG units left.

Challenge wounds may not be LoS'ed.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

gausus wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
What a particularly gruesome piece of loyalist nastiness.

The key here, obviously, is taking out Azrael, either in a challenge of through a called shot. This would be one of the few situations where the Murder Sword would be useful for a Chaos player.

That isn't so easy. I have both chalenged and precision shoot Azrael more than few times. Yet, no matter the number of wounds, he can always "Look out sir!" them on a 4++. And even if the inv is failed, he still have plenty of IG units left.

Challenge wounds may not be LoS'ed.

Yes, but there is a long line of Sergeants waiting to accept those challenges. Anyway he could always just decline, the unit still benefits from the 4++, just not his leadership.

...and technically his look out, sir roll would be a 2+.

I have only faced the Azrael blob twice and both times I ignored it and tabled the rest of the IG army. There are usually so many points tied up in the blob that this is easier to accomplish than first expected.

This is silly...2 TFC's would make short work of that, with that size...you can't even miss, even if you scatter badly...
Either ignore them, or just pile on wounds that ignore their cover if it was better than the 4++, and then you just have that 4++ until your barrage weapons snipe out the PFG...he'll fail those LOS eventually.... 1/6 wounds go on the libby from failed LOS....and 1/3 wounds stick on him...so...18 wounds on the libby from barrage should be enough to finish him off.

 iGuy91 wrote:
This is silly...2 TFC's would make short work of that, with that size...you can't even miss, even if you scatter badly...
Either ignore them, or just pile on wounds that ignore their cover if it was better than the 4++, and then you just have that 4++ until your barrage weapons snipe out the PFG...he'll fail those LOS eventually.... 1/6 wounds go on the libby from failed LOS....and 1/3 wounds stick on him...so...18 wounds on the libby from barrage should be enough to finish him off.

It's not a PFG, Azrael's unit simply gains a 4++. They can be spread out to maximum coherency and you have to snipe out a 2+, 6+ FNP 4 wound character. I doubt he'd bother LoSing for a long time.

I think some of you guys are missing a key point of what the OP is talking about, this isn't just a big scoring blob that's hard to budge. They can stretch out and be stupidly resilient bubble wrap for a wall of tanks behind them. Can't assault the tanks, can't get into melta range of the tanks. And the weapons buried in the blob can be dangerous themselves to one unit a turn. If played well it's not entirely something you can ignore.

Thunderfires certainly aren't a bad choice, mind you, but it won't be an easy snipe job. You just need to throw mass saves at them, for Grey Knights if you can get Purifiers into combat with the blob the results are pretty fun..

Chaplain and 15 dc charging in is 400pts. That's 75 st 5 reroll to hit (3+) and reroll to wound (2+) plus 5 st 7 attacks from the chappy. That is ~ 66 hits and ~ 64 wounds which means ~ 32 dead guardsmen. Of course you have to get them into combat first, but a LRC will do that job quite fine usually. Saves spending 2 or 3 turns shooting it up!

And how would the pile-in work on such a blob unit? If i will have more wounds in the pool, then models i base contact?

Surprised how many people are underestimating this unit as a friend of mine runs it to great effect, such as:

-Spreads out across the board with x50 Guardsmen negating much the effectiveness of template weapons such as Thunderfire Cannons, Leman Russ Tanks ect. and the manuveralbility of several armies.
-Squads all have Power Axe Sergeant, Melta Bombs, Krak Grenades and Flamers
-PCS Follows behind giving out orders while rest of army (Mech IG with some Leman Russ Variants) fills in behind with x2 Vendettas with Special Weapon teams coming off in reserve.

With this army he has beaten nearly every single army in the game (and our store is VERY competitive so he is not beating inferior competition), just last week he did a stand and shoot reaction against a squad of x30 Orks with a second one charging in behind that one, he killed 24 of the first squad and beat down the rest of them from the second unit in two turns of combat! Now I know averages are great and all but he definitely makes the majority of his 50% saves and has tied down big scary units with multi-charges. Dont know why anyone brought up Terminators, they are a horrible choice against this unit as the weight of numbers will bring them down. As mentioned the best thing to do is to try and tarpit it with a unit and focus on the rest of his army.