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 erick99 wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
As a Word Bearer player, I am sick of people saying they are scattered war bands. We are Legio and proud of it! So, after you learn English go read some WB novels. For the record, I don't use drakes and never will. Just because you can't learn to bring some AA, don't lump us all together . We just want a balanced codex that represents our favorite legions. We don't want OP or snowflake status. Is that too much to ask for?

This.

I often use C:SM CT:IH for my Iron Warriors because (imo) it is a better representation of Iron Warriors in general. And it's a shame, because it means I rarely get to use daemon engines. I would love to see a supplement that gave at least the legions* a 'chapter trait'.

_e

*No, they don't fight as legions. But when you see DG Bezerkers, let me know.

Oh oh! No better! DG Thousand Sons! Nurgle and Tzeentch are best friends right? (also if memory serves me, don't many iron warriors still work in a kinda sorta great company structure kinda like in a chapter size of CSM?)

Yeah, alot of the IW Great Companies are around chapter sized. C:SM CT:IH works, but having to chose between most units feeling like IW or have IW units is really frustrating.

_e

it strikes me the best way to handle Legion tactics would be via a "veterns of the long war replacement"

Codex: Heldrake is just fine, and won't change much regardless of what Legion is released next. It will still be Codex: Heldrake, but with different Wargear. I mean, seriously? A Black Legion army led by someone besides a BL character? C'mon, GW.

I doubt you will see heavy supplement use in Tournaments. If you do, see Codex: Heldrake above. Therefore, I'd say just make your own Legion rules. My group is quite happy with this. I encourage you to beat GW to the punch and determine your own "Legion tactics".

VotLW, in my opinion, is a good mechanic and should be present even in the case of a Legion supplement.

 erick99 wrote:
Yeah, alot of the IW Great Companies are around chapter sized. C:SM CT:IH works, but having to chose between most units feeling like IW or have IW units is really frustrating.

_e

Wouldn't Imperial Fists be a better fit for Iron Warriors than Iron Hands? Their primarchs had similar battle doctrines and you don't see the Iron Warriors replacing their bodies with machinery while screaming "THE FLESH IS WEAK!"

The IW legion trait would probably be somewhat similar to IF. Tank Busters for Havocs and Daemon Engines. Maybe something else besides bolter drill. Maybe twin link melta weapons as well for bunker busting?

MarsNZ wrote:


Your hatred for heldrakes seems to be getting in the way of your ability to make a reasoned argument or even construct a readable sentence. Paragraph one and paragraph two are essentially completely contradictory.

How are they contradictory ? GW says there is no legions . The makers of the csm codex before this say they felt that csm were too over the place and streamlined them to be more fluffy and the Kelly codex is based on the 4th ed codex. If GW felt that csm needed extra rules , they would have given them to chaos marines . Ergo when BA or DA get a different codex , then they get it because they are different enough . There is no snowflaking for more OP rules , it is what they deserv . Chaos on the other hand does not need those , because neither the fluff , nor the game balance requires it . And the fact that chaos players want extra rules on top of a 4th Fast Attack slot only shows how whiny they are.
You get a codex with all the cult legions , all the csm , ton of new models and units including the OP helldrake and you want even more rules . If that isn't trying to be a snowflak , then I don't know what is.

Makumba wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:


Your hatred for heldrakes seems to be getting in the way of your ability to make a reasoned argument or even construct a readable sentence. Paragraph one and paragraph two are essentially completely contradictory.

How are they contradictory ? GW says there is no legions . The makers of the csm codex before this say they felt that csm were too over the place and streamlined them to be more fluffy and the Kelly codex is based on the 4th ed codex. If GW felt that csm needed extra rules , they would have given them to chaos marines . Ergo when BA or DA get a different codex , then they get it because they are different enough . There is no snowflaking for more OP rules , it is what they deserv . Chaos on the other hand does not need those , because neither the fluff , nor the game balance requires it . And the fact that chaos players want extra rules on top of a 4th Fast Attack slot only shows how whiny they are.
You get a codex with all the cult legions , all the csm , ton of new models and units including the OP helldrake and you want even more rules . If that isn't trying to be a snowflak , then I don't know what is.

Actually it's because they felt like continuing to expand, also the only snowflake are the SM who believe they actually deserve a codex still for having minor tactical differences from each other

Not to mention yes there's no legions..Even SM doesn't have legions, though the Word Bearers come close with their unity, along with the Black Legion, considering they've grown even bigger then they were when they were the Sons of Horus. And no they were not streamlined to be more fluffy, they were streamlined because 4th edition had the idea to cut everything and make it bland.

But hey continue to troll, it's quite obvious with the fact you can't have an actual arguement beyond "They can't have more rules because they have OP heldrake" Despite the fact that chaos is pretty low on the rankings (52+) and still falling even with the 'OP rules"

The shattering of the Legions is a fallacy used to justify the Loyalist special treatment and entirely unjustified as an argument against getting representation.

- All of the Legions were split. This includes the Loyalists. If the Imperial Fists penchant for siege warfare has lasted 10,000 years of real time, it is completely reasonable to think that an Iron Warrior might have kept his skills in the wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey warp clock.
- Even the shattered Legions contain 'splinters' of pure warbands. Some of these are the size of a Chapter. The size of a normal 40k game rarely has more than ~60 Marines on the table, of course some of the splinters are going to be capable of reaching army-scales of this size.
- Word Bearers and Iron Warriors arguably still work in Legion formation. The Death Guard are relatively unified and the Alpha Legion communicate across Cells.

- "Yeah but all CSM are pretty much the same by this point"- We have rules to differentiate between the Imperial Fists 3rd and 4th Companies. We will shortly be receiving rules for Clan Raukaan against the normal Iron Hands, and rumours suggest 'Nid Hunters being sufficiently different from Ultramarines to warrant a ruleset. There are 7 individual army profiles in the standard Codex, 3 more spun into separate Codices, and Grey Knights on top of that. Forge World has sent a list with a whole host of Later Foundings, all of which are apparently different enough to warrant unique rules and a special Chapter badge.

There are more differences between an Iron Warrior and an Alpha Legionaire, than there are between Companies of the same Chapter.

(PS- I think most people hate the Heldrake, CSM players included. Because while it exists in it's current state any requests for a remake are laughed off as the dreams of players who clearly only want more power and hate fluff.)

I don't want no bloody Heldrakes! I want chapter tactics for my EC (and other Chaos Legions/Warbands), more fluffy wargear, more fluffy upgrade options, fluffy warlord traits and the like! Seriously, half of the CSM Codex is casual or semi-competitive at best, I feel sorry for the poor Tzeentch chaps.

Makumba wrote:

But the real truth is that chaos players just want more special snow flake rules , more OP stuff like helldrakes and if it is possible more helldrakes.

This "real truth" is an utter lie.

I do not play competitive. I have never fielded a Heldrake (I dislike them) or an Obliterator. I like to field units which background I like. And I am not alone, competitive players are not the majority. If you are getting this impression is because the game is so stupidly broken that the only Chaos players still playing are the ones that would field Heldrakes.

I play Word Bearers and other Legions. I cannot field anything that makes me feel like I am actually playing WB. And we are a legion. You are either a troll or someone who knows nothing about the Chaos background. Not all Legions got broken. The Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors are still a Legion. And there are Death Guard, Emperor´s Children or World Eaters warbands bigger than any loyal chapter. In the Dominion of Fire, Angron commanded 50000 berserkers. What are you talking about?

And we had rules for Legions since Rogue Trader. A supplement in 1988 gave us rules for Black Legion, World Eaters and Emperor´s Children, and I mean full army lists for each one. Army wide rules, an armory of their own, and so on.

And we are getting supplements for companies of Space Marines now. It is getting ridiculous. A company of 100 marines following blindly the Codex Astartes like any other marine gets a supplement and World Eaters do not because they are just small warbands of just 50000 marines?

The real truth here is the answer to this questions: what kind of person enjoys having unfair advantages in a game with plastic toys? How can anyone be happy that Space Marines have such an advantage? How can win be so important to people that they rejoice that the opposing team has no chance?

Wow apparently someone doesn't know their 40k lore

As of our current timeline (caution, info from books' endings follows)


Maybe Makumba only reads the books that have pictures so he actually doesn't know the 40k lore he's talking about?

 Lobukia wrote:
Wow apparently someone doesn't know their 40k lore

As of our current timeline (caution, info from books' endings follows)

Spoiler:

Word Bearers.... still fight as a Legion, easily in the 10s of thousands under central command

1k Sons, split into two major factions, one under Ahriman Ascendant's command and numbering easily in the thousands.

NightLords, unified under reborn Talos the Soul Hunter and ready to fight their own shadow war on the fringes of the 13th Black Crusade

That's some serious umph still fielding forces that easily exceed chapter strength and consider themselves "legions" in organization.

Maybe Makumba only reads the books that have pictures so he actually doesn't know the 40k lore he's talking about?

Not quite...

I've taken a butcher's at the 3.5th edition CSM Codex and imagine my amazement when I found "the Book of Slaanesh" and similar chapters devoted to other Traitor Legions. The number of special rules and upgrades for each of the Legions is astounding. The current edition feels extremely bland in comparison to that...

No, if I wanted to be like a Space Marine, I would buy the SM codex. Give me something else. Cult terminators, a stripped down landraider I can fit 30 cultists in, something unique to CSM.

Honestly, I'd love to be able to play my CSMs fully fluffy....

Prior to the edition change, this was my general army list:

Typhus
4x Termies with MoN, Land Raider
3x Squads of PM
1 sqaud of 5 bikers, MoN
2 "defilers" (I am using the Plague Hulk model from Forge World to keep the theme)
1 Greater Daemon (using the FW Unclean One)

And while yeah, many people felt/feel that PMs are a strong/.OP unit choice, I was definitely hampered by using Typhus.

A buddy of mine in 5th played a similarly styled list, only he used exclusively Khornate units. Whenever we faced our super fluffy Chaos lists against a "regular" list, it was ugly for the guy using CSM.... What I'd want to see in any sort of CSM expansion is to make characters like Typhus VIABLE options.

If they gave us Deathclaw Drop Pods I think we would definitely get way stronger but alas we did not, so im unsatisfied with the codex.

 Wilytank wrote:

 erick99 wrote:
Yeah, alot of the IW Great Companies are around chapter sized. C:SM CT:IH works, but having to chose between most units feeling like IW or have IW units is really frustrating.

_e

Wouldn't Imperial Fists be a better fit for Iron Warriors than Iron Hands? Their primarchs had similar battle doctrines and you don't see the Iron Warriors replacing their bodies with machinery while screaming "THE FLESH IS WEAK!"

The IW legion trait would probably be somewhat similar to IF. Tank Busters for Havocs and Daemon Engines. Maybe something else besides bolter drill. Maybe twin link melta weapons as well for bunker busting?

In some ways, yes. IW do tend to chop of any mutated limbs the gods 'gift' them, so the bionics bit works, and getting IWND on vehicles is as close to daemon engines as I can get in C:SM.
Ideally [imo] an IW trait would be something like Tank Hunter Havocs and 6+ FNP guys, or something like that.

_e

Maybe Makumba only reads the books that have pictures so he actually doesn't know the 40k lore he's talking about?

Kelly said there is chaos legions. Gav Thorpe said there are no chaos legions . Dembowski said there are no legion anymore . 2 codex designers that wrote fluff for them and one of the writers for BL tell that legions don't exist anymore . And as pictures goes , well the WD kind of a does have many as do the codici , so you are right there. I take my fluff from books with pictures.

BlackArmour wrote:
After seeing the new C:SM book and the variety it allows in choosing chapter tactics and allowing you to build your own army it got me thinking.

Would you be in favor of CSM getting a codex supplement that would give them chapter tactics and more freedom to design their army with personality?

Yes! I'm just starting out (eventually going to ship in those painting supplies), but the whole reason why I bought the Space Marine codex was for the Chapter Tactics that actually suit Night Lords more than their own codex currently. It just seems stupid that a Chaos Space Marine Legion is better represented by loyalist Raven Guard rules than their own faction's rules because GW barely even touched upon them. Although I'd likely be mad that, while an awesome complete CSM supplement was released, I'd have to pay more money for it.

Hopefully with the next edition, the traitor Legions from the HH (besides BL) will get a little love from GW and get their own supplements, or one complete one sold together.

Makumba wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:


Your hatred for heldrakes seems to be getting in the way of your ability to make a reasoned argument or even construct a readable sentence. Paragraph one and paragraph two are essentially completely contradictory.

How are they contradictory ? GW says there is no legions . The makers of the csm codex before this say they felt that csm were too over the place and streamlined them to be more fluffy and the Kelly codex is based on the 4th ed codex. If GW felt that csm needed extra rules , they would have given them to chaos marines . Ergo when BA or DA get a different codex , then they get it because they are different enough . There is no snowflaking for more OP rules , it is what they deserv . Chaos on the other hand does not need those , because neither the fluff , nor the game balance requires it . And the fact that chaos players want extra rules on top of a 4th Fast Attack slot only shows how whiny they are.
You get a codex with all the cult legions , all the csm , ton of new models and units including the OP helldrake and you want even more rules . If that isn't trying to be a snowflak , then I don't know what is.

Its contradictory because you incorrectly state Chaos has no legions (they do, no idea where you get this idea from). You say that these differences don't warrant separate rules within the same codex, then you go on to state that because Blood Angels are red and sometimes a handful get really angry they deserve an entirely separate codex. Also if Chaos players should be happy that they're allowed different colours and the same rules, then why shouldn't Loyalists be happy with the same?

As for the "chaos has no legions" thing that you keep throwing around. The lastest Black Legion supplement hints at that Legion alone being as numerous as the thousand Loyal Chapters combined.

MarsNZ wrote:

Makumba wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:


Your hatred for heldrakes seems to be getting in the way of your ability to make a reasoned argument or even construct a readable sentence. Paragraph one and paragraph two are essentially completely contradictory.

How are they contradictory ? GW says there is no legions . The makers of the csm codex before this say they felt that csm were too over the place and streamlined them to be more fluffy and the Kelly codex is based on the 4th ed codex. If GW felt that csm needed extra rules , they would have given them to chaos marines . Ergo when BA or DA get a different codex , then they get it because they are different enough . There is no snowflaking for more OP rules , it is what they deserv . Chaos on the other hand does not need those , because neither the fluff , nor the game balance requires it . And the fact that chaos players want extra rules on top of a 4th Fast Attack slot only shows how whiny they are.
You get a codex with all the cult legions , all the csm , ton of new models and units including the OP helldrake and you want even more rules . If that isn't trying to be a snowflak , then I don't know what is.

Its contradictory because you incorrectly state Chaos has no legions (they do, no idea where you get this idea from). You say that these differences don't warrant separate rules within the same codex, then you go on to state that because Blood Angels are red and sometimes a handful get really angry they deserve an entirely separate codex. Also if Chaos players should be happy that they're allowed different colours and the same rules, then why shouldn't Loyalists be happy with the same?

As for the "chaos has no legions" thing that you keep throwing around. The lastest Black Legion supplement hints at that Legion alone being as numerous as the thousand Loyal Chapters combined.

Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes Ohh, and because they are all the same, even though they have a "handful" that smell really bad, and a "handful" that also get really angry and chop things up (ok, well they never really calm down), and you have a "handful" who are actually just hollow suits of armor with a consciousness, ohh and you have a handful that are completely fething deaf and LOOVE some LOUD NOISES.... none of them are special enough to get their own book



Yeah... Sorry, GW, but thats just fething bonkers... Chaos not unique enough, smh

 SarisKhan wrote:

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
Uh, you forgot Alpha Legion there boss...

Wait, what? Never heard about them. Like, totally.

Is this a pun?

 rednecroncryptek wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
Uh, you forgot Alpha Legion there boss...

Wait, what? Never heard about them. Like, totally.

Is this a pun?

pun pun pun pun pun pun pun pun pun pun pun pun!

Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes

Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.

Makumba wrote:

Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes

Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.

Not sure if trolling.

Makumba wrote:

Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes

Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.

Oh? So if I open up my codex all of my models will have AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR? They'll also have thunderhammers and the sorts? OOOO! Are they all in warbands of 1000 that try to balance all the units out and never touch chaos daemon artefacts due to their randomness?

rednecroncryptek wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
Uh, you forgot Alpha Legion there boss...

Wait, what? Never heard about them. Like, totally.

Is this a pun?

Yes.

Makumba wrote:

Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes

Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.

Okay, so we have the Legion-sized Red Corsairs and about 50 (not 100% sure about this) independent Renegade Chapters, which would be roughly 150,000 Renegade Marines. Now, there are 9 Traitor Legions; their numbers were varied during the HH and most likely changed a lot during the following 10k years, but I think it's safe to assume that there are about 800,000 Traitor Legion CSM (Black Legion is around the size of an original Legion, and Daemon Primarch Angron led 50,000 Berzerkers not that long ago, so this is a likely estimate). So, you're wrong, we aren't "Smurfs with spikes".

(Black Legion is around the size of an original Legion)

Actually the Supplement for them said they have actually grown even larger then that with the inclusion of all the renegade marines joining up with the black legion, so it's numbers are far, far larger.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes

Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.

Not sure if trolling.

Haha, I think I did pretty good in there, since he quoted me And I really do think that some of the arguments against the CSM getting more varied units/specialized books are ridiculous. We have what, 30 years or so of WH history to go off of, and in basically all of them we have that most of the original traitor legions are at, near, or above their original strengths from the HH period. Obviously, many of us know that some of the legions had some falling out and are spread to the 8 winds of Chaos, but that doesnt change that they are still a legion, and if something truly big enough came up, and they had a daemon primarch, they'd band together again.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Well, clearly Chaos follows the Codex Astartes that Papa Smurf wrote, and only get 1000 dudes

Well considering that most csm are renegades from post heresy chapters , then yeah most of those have codex astartes breed in to them . They may not be doing the whole no fear thing , but on a tactical and strategic level they fight like ultramarines.

Not sure if trolling.

Haha, I think I did pretty good in there, since he quoted me And I really do think that some of the arguments against the CSM getting more varied units/specialized books are ridiculous. We have what, 30 years or so of WH history to go off of, and in basically all of them we have that most of the original traitor legions are at, near, or above their original strengths from the HH period. Obviously, many of us know that some of the legions had some falling out and are spread to the 8 winds of Chaos, but that doesnt change that they are still a legion, and if something truly big enough came up, and they had a daemon primarch, they'd band together again.

Not to mention that most games are warband sized anyways. I doubt we'd see an entire chapter on the field, let alone a legion, and even then people bring unfluffy amounts of vehicles and such too.

Because Calgars, Kharn, and Abbadon in every minor skirmish am I right!