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BlackArmour wrote:
After seeing the new C:SM book and the variety it allows in choosing chapter tactics and allowing you to build your own army it got me thinking.

Would you be in favor of CSM getting a codex supplement that would give them chapter tactics and more freedom to design their army with personality?

I wouldn't just be in favour of getting this supplement, I would even be willing to sacrifice my local GW store staff member to get it!

Makumba wrote:
Blood angels on the other hand are different from ultramarines or space wolfs, they have their different weapons and different vehicles , honor guards . Yes , they are codex , but also have the whole cool vampire thing going on with DC and mefiston . This makes them drasticly different from Space Wolfs or Ultramarines . Chaos marines don't have that . Only chaos players seem to not understand that the times of their old 4th ed codex are gone . Besides nothing stops them from painting their models in a different way , in fact am sure it is encouraged .

But the real truth is that chaos players just want more special snow flake rules , more OP stuff like helldrakes and if it is possible more helldrakes.

So Blood angels deserve a full codex themselves because of the whole "cool vampire thing"?? Really? You could easily cover Blood angels exactly the same way as Black Templars in the base C:SM with part of their chapter tactics being a "death company" trait that can be applied to a given squad, or dreadnought and the tactics that let them choose assault marines as troops. Sanguinary guard are just prettified vanguard vets and so on. They are not drastically different from other codex chapters. They just have a curse that doesn't need a full rulebook to realize on the table top.

Meanwhile due to dedication to a given chaos power followers of nurgle are drastically different than followers of tzeentch, slaanesh or khorne, but those different chaos options all exist in a single book with little differentiation. Given the way black templars were effectively entered into the C:SM and pretty easily at that, all the other chapters could fit in as well with minor tweaks. Your argument supporintg a blood angels codex uses logic that would apply equally towards giving any given chaos force its own book too. With chapter tactics in the C:SM all of the "different" chapters can easily be incorporated into a single volume with not any space marine chapter needing its own book, except for grey knights.

Of course I already find the CSM book readily adaptable. We have marks of chaos, and plenty of interesting units that can be used to create a chaos "counts as" warband that uses the rules for marks and the various units, but not the fluff for them...

Skriker

 insaniak wrote:
I find myself unable to vote with the options given.

My vote would be 'no'... but not because I think they are good enough (the current codex is ridiculously bland) but simply because supplements will bring about the end of all civilisation as we know it.

I would rather that they receive a Codex update that actually makes them interesting, so we can all forget that the last two codexes ever happened.

I agree

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
I find myself unable to vote with the options given.

My vote would be 'no'... but not because I think they are good enough (the current codex is ridiculously bland) but simply because supplements will bring about the end of all civilisation as we know it.

I would rather that they receive a Codex update that actually makes them interesting, so we can all forget that the last two codexes ever happened.

I agree

Double agree...

Here's some traits I thought up:

Iron Warriors:
-Tank Hunters for Havocs and Daemon Engines, twin linked melta weapons. Can take one Warpsmith that doesn't take up an HQ slot if you take a Lord.

Word Bearers:
-Zealot rule from Dark Apostle extended to 12" of effect from Dark Apostle(s). If an allied detachment from Codex: Chaos Daemons is used, they may deep strike within 6" of the Dark Apostle and not scatter. Units that ascend to Daemon Prince by the Champion of Chaos table keep all wargear and upgrades.

Night Lords:
-Fear USR to all non-vehicle units. Raptors and Warptalons may assault after deep striking but may not shoot the turn they do so. If Lord has a jump pack, one unit of Raptors may be taken as a troop choice.

Black Legion:
-Crusader and Preferred enemy (all Imperium Loyalist Factions) USR to all non-vehicle units. Units in Terminator armor may make sweeping advances including Abaddon. If Lord has Terminator armor, one unit of Terminators may be taken as a troop choice. Warlord re-rolls all failed to hit rolls in challenges against Imperium factions every turn.

My small contribution:

Emperor's Children:
- Warp Scream special rule for all non-vehicle units. Whenever Assaulted by enemy units, the enemy's WS is reduced by 1 in that Assault Phase.
- Combat Drugs special rule for all Characters. At the beginning of each Assault phase, the Character may choose to use Combat Drugs and roll on a table. 1 means a self-inflicted Wound with no armour save allowed, but other options grant +1 WS, +1 Strength, +1 Attack and the like until the next phase.

Got those from an old CSM Codex, back when each Traitor Legion had some actual custom stuff.

I'm still wondering about the chapters who turned traitor. What trait would they get? For instance, what would Red Corsairs get?

Some wild ideas:

World Eaters: free and compulsory Mark of Khorne for anyone able to get it. The unit gain Fearless. No Sorcerers (so no Tally Keepers from Rogue Trader).

Death Guard: free and compulsory Mark of Nurgle for anyone able to get it. The unit gain Fearless. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

Emperor´s Children: free and compulsory Mark of Slaanesh for anyone able to get it. The unit gain Fearless. All units with WS Run an additional D3 (this will normally be 1D6+3). Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

Thousand Sons: free and compulsory Mark of Tzeentch for all units, including vehicles. All units re-roll Ld tests when trying to use a psychic power. No other marks allowed. Sorcerers and Aspiring Sorcerers get access to Divination. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

Night Lords: all units gain Fear. All infantry units gain Stealth. All bikes and jump infantry units get Hit and Run. No marks allowed. Special Rule: Honourless Murderers. Sorcerers get access to Divination. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

Word Bearers: all infantry units gain Zealot. All vehicles able to get a Dirge Caster get it for free. No marks allowed. If your main force is a Word Bearers force, friendly units with the Daemon rule may re-roll their scatter dice when deep-striking. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

Iron Warriors: Stubborn and Furious Charge for all units with WS. Havocs gain Tank Hunter. You can get up to 10 models in a Mutilator unit. No marks allowed. All vehicles gain an additional HP. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

Alpha Legion: all infantry and jump infantry units gain Infiltration and And They Shall Know No Fear. No marks allowed. No units with the rule Daemon allowed. Killing their special characters do not give Victory Points in any case. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

Black Legion: take whatever you want. Veteran of the Long War for everyone who can take it, for free. Battle brothers with any other Legion. All Chosen may select one of the following rules: Split Fire, Infiltration, Tank Hunter.

Renegades: take whatever you want as long as it hasn´t the Daemon rule. This represents a Chapter recently gone rogue. Battle brothers with Space Marines, to represent the fact that they still use the same gear. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

Honourless Murderers:
Additional changes:
1: Daemon Princes MAY take a mark. It is not compulsory.
2: A Heldrake can use a template weapon only if it is Hovering.

A Legion can ally with other Legion. Unless specified otherwise, they are Allies of Convenience.

 Wilytank wrote:
I'm still wondering about the chapters who turned traitor. What trait would they get? For instance, what would Red Corsairs get?

Renegades.

They should add a trait for that too.

 Skriker wrote:

Of course I already find the CSM book readily adaptable. We have marks of chaos, and plenty of interesting units that can be used to create a chaos "counts as" warband that uses the rules for marks and the various units, but not the fluff for them...

Skriker

Just grabbing this bit cause it's aggravating to me. Black Legion, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, and Death Guard can be fielded full to fluff (with varying degrees of success but not the point). Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion all kinda suffer though. I mean, yes you can load up on Possessed Marines and Dark Apostles to get that Word Bearer feeling, max out your Raptor/Warp Talon quotient for NL's, total Daemon-Engine (Helbrutes, Heldrakes, and Forgefiends) with Warp Smiths for IW,... And I guess max squads of Cultists for AL?

Main issue is the marks. If you're playing to fluff, the above four armies are less marked than the dedicated ones (BL too to some degree, and WB are likely to just have all the marks in diff squads). Marks are the main way to give extra "oomph" to a given squad, and the only way to unlock some Icons (i.e. FnP(5+), re-roll charges, and those two other ones no one touches). To play more fluff-focused AL, all I can manage is Icons of Vengence for Fearless (good thing cause I get no cult troops) and VotLW for that bump to Ld. That's the main reason I want supplements; so that (ideally) I can run AL like they aught to be; either loaded down with well trained (but still cheap) cultists, or popping out of the woodwork cause everything has Infiltrate. Hell, I'd love a Mark of Chaos Undivided that gave ATSKNF, sign me up!

I like your ideas, da001. I'd love to see them in an official update/supplement.

Thanks!

Sons of Malice- No Marks of Chaos or Cult Troops or Daemon troops, Allies of Convenience with C:SM and other Legions, Hatred USR Daemons, one HQ choice may be upgraded to a "Champion of Malice" for 80pts

Champion of Malice- Gains +1 to WS,W,T,S,I,LD
Loses all equipment except for the Armor of Malice and Bound Blade, may not join any unit or take any transport, if within 6" of any unit with the Daemon USR the Champion must attempt to assault.

Armor of Malice- Gives the USR of Fear as well as 3+ armor save, a 4++ and a 3++ against any attacks done by units with the Daemon USR

Bound Blade- AP2, Bound Daemon Weapon

Bound Daemon Weapon
The tortuted souls of a dozen daemons are contained within this blade, as such roll two d6 when determining attacks, if either dice rolls a 1 the Champion takes d3 wounds with no armor save allowed

For those saying that , its been written that CSM are now just small war-bands and can't therefore have tactics etc. what if....... and I'm just spit balling here , GW does the UN-thinkable and semi advances the story line and claims something like there is a "new mysterious force/leader/etc, banding warbands together and these new war bands are now fighting with such and such tactics.

I seriously have to think something like that would sell and sell WELL. Its also perfect for a supplement cause you end up with a couple pages of rules and TON of fluff ( see Farsight enclaves).

OR just follow any of the ideas above, you don't have to give new models again see Farsight enclaves.

also if your codex hasnt been updated then yes Helldrakes are a pain but most CSM players know that spamming them isnt going to win them much in any tournament not going to go over why but yea not affective as it was when the codex came out.

GW never advances the story line . They haven't done it for years , if not decades , And from what I have been told they even removed the newest fluff . Older gamers showed me old White Dwarfs where cadia is taken by chaos and 13th black crusade happened . In 5th ed ,when I started to play , the 13th haven't even started.

also if your codex hasnt been updated then yes Helldrakes are a pain but most CSM players know that spamming them isnt going to win them much in any tournament not going to go over why but yea not affective as it was when the codex came oout

but they sure like to play with 2-3 in non tournament games too. There are 4 demon players and 3 chaos players here , no one runs army without helldrakes and all chaos marine players take 2 or 3 .

I don't have a single Heldrake in my army and I don't plan on changing that.

I'd love to be able to field an army that would be both competitive and fluffy. Well, that can be rather easily done with Death Guard and Nurgle stuff, but what about the rest? Still, my army is using Noise Marines as Troops, so it shouldn't be that bad (still building it), but a simple rule overhaul or slight cost reduction would be welcome anyway.

Makumba wrote:
GW never advances the story line . They haven't done it for years , if not decades , And from what I have been told they even removed the newest fluff . Older gamers showed me old White Dwarfs where cadia is taken by chaos and 13th black crusade happened . In 5th ed ,when I started to play , the 13th haven't even started.

also if your codex hasnt been updated then yes Helldrakes are a pain but most CSM players know that spamming them isnt going to win them much in any tournament not going to go over why but yea not affective as it was when the codex came oout

but they sure like to play with 2-3 in non tournament games too. There are 4 demon players and 3 chaos players here , no one runs army without helldrakes and all chaos marine players take 2 or 3 .

Is your local meta competitive? Are they not? ALong with that, this argument could be easily used for IG, Daemons, Tau, Eldar, and Necrons. Certain places, they flood the lands. In other places, I placem y one heldrake into a glass case to never be used again as I feel dirty using it after only one game. And then I grab out my llovely berzerkers and pray to the emperor they reach cc (and then I quickly glance to my TS a single tear following down as I weep for my favorite legion).

 da001 wrote:

Alpha Legion: all infantry and jump infantry units gain Infiltration and And They Shall Know No Fear. No marks allowed. No units with the rule Daemon allowed. Killing their special characters do not give Victory Points in any case. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

changes:
1: Daemon Princes MAY take a mark. It is not compulsory.
2: A Heldrake can use a template weapon only if it is Hovering.

A Legion can ally with other Legion. Unless specified otherwise, they are Allies of Convenience.

Okay, while I understand and like the gist, I have but a few questions.

First:
Alpha Legion. While I like the Infiltration, I am hesitant about the ATSKNF, I know that they are/not secretly loyal to the Emperor, but then when you take the marks and Daemon SR away, forgive me, but this just sounds like Infiltrating SM.... And while I like the SR about the HQ's, there would inevitably be "OMG THAT IS SO OP! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WIN WITH MY 3 RIPTIDES WITHOUT GETTING WARLORD!?!?" type screams from the idiot non-CSM players. I like the idea on a roll of a 3+ or 2+ or something this HQ takes the place of a Character or other HQ within the army - hence the decoy theme of AL.

Second:
DP: I know where you're coming from, but this just doesn't make sense. A CSM kills 1000's of enemies, and then gets gifted the power of the Dark God's by none of them? Maybe you could make it that the Marks are free. Therefore they aren't AS MUCH of a point sink they are already.

SECOND:
6th Ed armies all have an OP unit that is dead-killy. Riptide, Wraith builds (Crons and Eldar), Grav-Bikes etc. Why would we nerf our special unit. Plus the idea of Heldrake >cough< dragon >cough< breathing on the enemy as it swoops past makes sense. While I agree it is OP, we need a little something to scare those MEQ, cover-cowering wretches that we are seeing so much of in 6th ed competitive lists. Lets remember that it isn't all-killing death machine and with all the Skyfire being brought in it doesn't need nerfs. It is a first priority target anyways. Just Saying.

Third:
Plus I think that the CSM should be Battle-brothers if there was this Chapter tactics.



Personally I think the HH/original legions should be getting the supplements and the Renegades get a separate one that perhaps have Chapter Tactics. But then can you imagine when we get to 7th Ed, CSM get an update, and all of a sudden there is a whole new need to update all those what 10 Supplements!? Never going to happen - too much money and too much effort. Gee-dub ain't gonna do it.


Good idea though.

 rednecroncryptek wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Alpha Legion: all infantry and jump infantry units gain Infiltration and And They Shall Know No Fear. No marks allowed. No units with the rule Daemon allowed. Killing their special characters do not give Victory Points in any case. Do not apply the Warriors of Chaos rule.

changes:
1: Daemon Princes MAY take a mark. It is not compulsory.
2: A Heldrake can use a template weapon only if it is Hovering.

A Legion can ally with other Legion. Unless specified otherwise, they are Allies of Convenience.

Okay, while I understand and like the gist, I have but a few questions.

First:
Alpha Legion. While I like the Infiltration, I am hesitant about the ATSKNF, I know that they are/not secretly loyal to the Emperor, but then when you take the marks and Daemon SR away, forgive me, but this just sounds like Infiltrating SM.... And while I like the SR about the HQ's, there would inevitably be "OMG THAT IS SO OP! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WIN WITH MY 3 RIPTIDES WITHOUT GETTING WARLORD!?!?" type screams from the idiot non-CSM players. I like the idea on a roll of a 3+ or 2+ or something this HQ takes the place of a Character or other HQ within the army - hence the decoy theme of AL.

1: ATSKNF. Most players that play Alpha Legion usually emphasize the "they look like loyalist" aspect of the Legion. This rules would turn the army into something close to a loyal chapter, making the separation between the Codexes less clear. This is intentional. On a second thought, I would change the ATSKNF rule for a special rule (let´s call it "For the Emperor!") that more or less do the same, thus "playing" with the "which side are they fighting for" aspect of the Alphas. Any player more interested in Daemons/marks can always play Renegades (the jack of all trades option) or use allies.
2: killing characters not giving VPs.
2.1: I was trying to balance it out. Point by point, and with ATSKNF making it clearer, they are still not at the same level that a loyal Chapter. Changing the Victory Conditions opens many tactical possibilities, and provides a distinctive feeling to the army. From a balance point of view, another option I thought of was some special rule for the cultists (Operatives).
2.2: Through the use of decoys is referenced in the background, I am not sure it is exactly the "theme of AL". I don´t think it is correct to state that the Alphas hide their leaders, I think the point is that they don´t have leaders, or that they do not need them. Cutting the head of the Hydra is of no consecuence not because you cut the wrong head, but because all the heads are the same, and every one of them can keep on the fight. Killing the leader means nothing. Remember that Alphas value independent thought, to the point that human Operatives and recently promoted soldiers can participate in the making of their strategies.

Second:
DP: I know where you're coming from, but this just doesn't make sense. A CSM kills 1000's of enemies, and then gets gifted the power of the Dark God's by none of them? Maybe you could make it that the Marks are free. Therefore they aren't AS MUCH of a point sink they are already.

It made sense right until this Codex. Chaos was quite a crowded place before Kelly. Independent Daemons, Minor Chaos Gods, Malal... For me, the worst part of this Codex is not the lack of competitive options, is the loss of an important part of the setting: Chaos Undivided, a completely valid option until 2012. There are many examples in the background of undivided Daemon Princes, with Lorgar and Perturabo being the most famous. What makes no sense is to force all Chaos followers to select a mark when five out of nine Legions are undivided.

SECOND:
6th Ed armies all have an OP unit that is dead-killy. Riptide, Wraith builds (Crons and Eldar), Grav-Bikes etc. Why would we nerf our special unit. Plus the idea of Heldrake >cough< dragon >cough< breathing on the enemy as it swoops past makes sense. While I agree it is OP, we need a little something to scare those MEQ, cover-cowering wretches that we are seeing so much of in 6th ed competitive lists. Lets remember that it isn't all-killing death machine and with all the Skyfire being brought in it doesn't need nerfs. It is a first priority target anyways. Just Saying.

Balance. It is an unbalanced unit, and the main problem people have with playing with Chaos players. I don´t want a unfair game, even if the unfairness is in my favor. Some other armies may have other broken units too, but the solution is not to keep things that way, but to fix things up. Two mistakes does not make one right.

The goal here is not to create more powerful armies, but to create "fluffy" armies that can compete with other armies.

Third:
Plus I think that the CSM should be Battle-brothers if there was this Chapter tactics.

I don´t see why. Most of them hate each other with a passion. DG and Thousand Sons, WE and Emperor´s Children, Iron Warriors and Emperor´s Children, (any Legion with Emperor´s Children, actually) should be Desperate Allies.

They are not allies. They wage a constant war against each other in the Eye of Terror. When they are join a crusade, they leave all differences behind, but then again that is what the Black Legion is: a way to depict a unified army made of different Legions and renegade chapters.

Example: an important part of, say, the World Eaters, is that they HATE the Emperor´s Chilren and anything Slaanesh-related. In Rogue Trader, first edition, 1988, the World Eaters had the following army wide rules: rage ("frenzy"), adamantium will equivalent, immune to fear if caused by Khorne Daemons and Hatred to: Inquisitors, psykers and spellcasters, Space Marines and followers of Slaanesh of any kind. It is part of them. Chaos is not united.

Personally I think the HH/original legions should be getting the supplements and the Renegades get a separate one that perhaps have Chapter Tactics. But then can you imagine when we get to 7th Ed, CSM get an update, and all of a sudden there is a whole new need to update all those what 10 Supplements!? Never going to happen - too much money and too much effort. Gee-dub ain't gonna do it.
Good idea though.

Thanks!
I don´t know what are they gonna do in 7th with all that supplements. I assume they will not update them.

 rednecroncryptek wrote:

Personally I think the HH/original legions should be getting the supplements and the Renegades get a separate one that perhaps have Chapter Tactics. But then can you imagine when we get to 7th Ed, CSM get an update, and all of a sudden there is a whole new need to update all those what 10 Supplements!? Never going to happen - too much money and too much effort. Gee-dub ain't gonna do it.

Good idea though.

I think (and/or hope) that GW does what had been rumored with 6th ed CSM; the 9 traitor legions get 1 book, renegades get a different book. If they wanted to get fancy they'd split it further with the four cult legions (TS,DG,WE, and EC) in one book, and the 5 undivided in a second one, renegades get another still. So 3 books for Chaotic humans (or superhumans) plus one for Daemons = still less then Xenos or IoM, but closer

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
Main issue is the marks. If you're playing to fluff, the above four armies are less marked than the dedicated ones (BL too to some degree, and WB are likely to just have all the marks in diff squads). Marks are the main way to give extra "oomph" to a given squad, and the only way to unlock some Icons (i.e. FnP(5+), re-roll charges, and those two other ones no one touches). To play more fluff-focused AL, all I can manage is Icons of Vengence for Fearless (good thing cause I get no cult troops) and VotLW for that bump to Ld. That's the main reason I want supplements; so that (ideally) I can run AL like they aught to be; either loaded down with well trained (but still cheap) cultists, or popping out of the woodwork cause everything has Infiltrate. Hell, I'd love a Mark of Chaos Undivided that gave ATSKNF, sign me up!

So it does come down to oomph after all. It isn't really about being able to build an appropriate list, but having some fancy special abilities while doing so...and that is exactly why CSMs don't need chapter tactics added in. Also reading your comments of "all I can manage" and "good thing because I get no cult troops," you are imposing limits on yourself because you can't look beyond the fluff in the book. You are apparently so hung up on how berserkers and plague marines are presented in the book that you can't include them. The book isn't inflexible in this area. The PLAYERS are inflexible in this area. This was the exact point of my post to begin with from a "counts as" perspective. If you are going to limit yourself so much in unit selecting then it isn't the fault of the CSM. Just call those cult troops something else in your army, customize minis for them and model them to match the rest of your force. Why can't an AL force have a unit of elite melee troops who are scary when they charge? Remnants of earlier assault marine squads? Who knows? A unit of thousand sons can be an It really is that simple. Sure the big four are the easier forces to build because they require less thinking, really, but if you think outside the box you can build a multitide of different forces. Huron will give you the infiltrate you want. Just call him Alpharius for heaven's sake. Last I checked the CSM book isn't limited to using characters with exact forces like they are in the C:SM. Instead of looking at units and saying "I can't include them because..." start thinking, "HOW can I include them?" instead. There is always the very high likelihood that if an AL supplement comes out that the list *still* won't be exactly what you want it to be...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

So it does come down to oomph after all. It isn't really about being able to build an appropriate list, but having some fancy special abilities while doing so...and that is exactly why CSMs don't need chapter tactics added in. Also reading your comments of "all I can manage" and "good thing because I get no cult troops," you are imposing limits on yourself because you can't look beyond the fluff in the book. You are apparently so hung up on how berserkers and plague marines are presented in the book that you can't include them. The book isn't inflexible in this area. The PLAYERS are inflexible in this area. This was the exact point of my post to begin with from a "counts as" perspective. If you are going to limit yourself so much in unit selecting then it isn't the fault of the CSM. Just call those cult troops something else in your army, customize minis for them and model them to match the rest of your force. Why can't an AL force have a unit of elite melee troops who are scary when they charge? Remnants of earlier assault marine squads? Who knows? A unit of thousand sons can be an It really is that simple. Sure the big four are the easier forces to build because they require less thinking, really, but if you think outside the box you can build a multitide of different forces. Huron will give you the infiltrate you want. Just call him Alpharius for heaven's sake. Last I checked the CSM book isn't limited to using characters with exact forces like they are in the C:SM. Instead of looking at units and saying "I can't include them because..." start thinking, "HOW can I include them?" instead. There is always the very high likelihood that if an AL supplement comes out that the list *still* won't be exactly what you want it to be...

Skriker

Flip things around a bit and think of it this way.... If the Space Wolves got no Grey Hunters, or Bloodclaws, then they'd be just codex marines, if the BA didnt have DC or Mephiston, etc. then theyd just be Codex as well. What other units in those books provide "extra oomph" to a players list that currently a Chaos player wishing to play his/her chosen legion, warband, chapter, etc. in a fluffy manner do not even get access to?

The reason why many players want supplements for CSM is because, as mentioned with Alpha Legion, if you take their traits or w/e then you have no cult troops (which is kinda weird from a fluff standpoint, as thats the bulk of what the Imperium can manage to take down of the AL) if I were playing AL, I wouldnt/couldnt take Khorne Berserkers, because the AL doesn't have them. And quite simply they don't fight that way, so it's dumb to take them.

I personally played an all Nurgle army. Why the feth would I even dream of taking berserkers, or rubric marines, or noise marines? As such, I am fairly well hampered should a unit get into close combat (well, except for my termies/Typhus. but even then, typhus sucks), and frankly I don't think that Chaos players should be basically penalized for taking the CSM codex, when marine players get a bonus for taking a "special snowflake" book (a la space wolves, blood angels, dark angels and formerly Black Templars), they also should not be getting an Iron Hands clan book, as last I saw, IH were one of the LEAST popular loyalist marine factions out there.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
The reason why many players want supplements for CSM is because, as mentioned with Alpha Legion, if you take their traits or w/e then you have no cult troops (which is kinda weird from a fluff standpoint, as thats the bulk of what the Imperium can manage to take down of the AL) if I were playing AL, I wouldnt/couldnt take Khorne Berserkers, because the AL doesn't have them. And quite simply they don't fight that way, so it's dumb to take them.

Did you even bother to read the post you quoted at all? Because I am not the one who said that if you use Alpha Legion you have no cult troops. My post said the opposite. Did all of the Alpha Legions' assault marines disappear into the ether just because they started fighting for the other side? Doubtful. Is there any reason that a particular Alpha Legion warband couldn't include an old assault squad that is good at its job and very aggressive? Not in the least, except when people say but I can't have "khorne berserkers" because I play Alpha Legion. Stop limiting them by only seeing them as "khorne berserkers" and there is no problem. They don't fight that way? So if Alpha legion forces had to take an enemy objective by force, as would be indicated in a 40k battle, then they wouldn't actually fight in any assaults to take said objective? That is just nuts. They were a space marine legion. While they prefer subterfuge they are just as well trained in combat as other marine legions were. Even if they infiltrate they will still have to fight to win the battle. Thus they will shoot and commit to melee. If they won't fight for some reason then there isn't much reason to bother making a force of them for the game then either. Reading the recent Alpha legion short in the Primarchs book showed the AL marines in the book to be quite aggressive in melee once they reached it.

What is dumb is ignoring units in your codex due to self imposed restrictions that are unnecessary and then blaming the book for it.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

What is dumb is ignoring units in your codex due to self imposed restrictions that are unnecessary and then blaming the book for it.

Skriker

The problem with that, is that if you use "Khorne Berserkers" how are you supposed to model them in an Iron Warriors army, or Death Guard? In order to play in most pickup games around my area, if you are using Khorne Berserkers in your list, regardless of what you say your army is, those berserkers had better have bunny ears, even if it goes against the fluff of an old legion.

I agree that the old legions who fell to chaos would still have "assault troops" but there are many who do not follow any gods or any particular god, so therefore they wouldn't have Khorne Berserkers, and therefore it would be unfluffy to take them in your force.

Maybe they should introduce something that works for the entire army so that if you take "Khorne Bezerkers", you can still call your force Iron Warriors, Maybe a 'Warband Tactics' sort of thing..

^Kind of what this thread is about really

I mean, the BL, WB, DG, EC, and 1KS all have a different method of fighting from one another, and 3 of those have given themselves over, basically, to the worship of one particular chaos deity, which would greater differentiate them from their brethren. and those differences, IMO are going to be much, much greater than the differences between sparkly vampire marines, werewolf marines, bathrobe prissy marines and blue marines, as those guys generally all follow the same playbook that the former boss of the blue marines sorta wrote and crammed down people's throats till they said they liked the idea.

 Skriker wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
The reason why many players want supplements for CSM is because, as mentioned with Alpha Legion, if you take their traits or w/e then you have no cult troops (which is kinda weird from a fluff standpoint, as thats the bulk of what the Imperium can manage to take down of the AL) if I were playing AL, I wouldnt/couldnt take Khorne Berserkers, because the AL doesn't have them. And quite simply they don't fight that way, so it's dumb to take them.

Did you even bother to read the post you quoted at all? Because I am not the one who said that if you use Alpha Legion you have no cult troops. My post said the opposite. Did all of the Alpha Legions' assault marines disappear into the ether just because they started fighting for the other side? Doubtful. Is there any reason that a particular Alpha Legion warband couldn't include an old assault squad that is good at its job and very aggressive? Not in the least, except when people say but I can't have "khorne berserkers" because I play Alpha Legion. Stop limiting them by only seeing them as "khorne berserkers" and there is no problem. They don't fight that way? So if Alpha legion forces had to take an enemy objective by force, as would be indicated in a 40k battle, then they wouldn't actually fight in any assaults to take said objective? That is just nuts. They were a space marine legion. While they prefer subterfuge they are just as well trained in combat as other marine legions were. Even if they infiltrate they will still have to fight to win the battle. Thus they will shoot and commit to melee. If they won't fight for some reason then there isn't much reason to bother making a force of them for the game then either. Reading the recent Alpha legion short in the Primarchs book showed the AL marines in the book to be quite aggressive in melee once they reached it.

What is dumb is ignoring units in your codex due to self imposed restrictions that are unnecessary and then blaming the book for it.

Skriker

It's not all one sided, self imposed nerfings...

I'm playing a chosen based Night Lords chaos marine army. I use the mark of slaanesh - I get people telling me I shouldn't use marks at all as its not 'true night lords' all the time.
Its possible to play an army of alpha legion khorne berzerkers (as some of them will definitely have fallen to khorne since the heresy), but you'll be asked to justify it by your opponants.
I don't like games that start with a conversation goes along the lines of 'yeah, but they wouldn't use that would they, they don't fight like that' - then this leads into someone believing that marking my troops puts me into the 'doesn't care about fluff/only here to powergame' camp.

(My NL chosen use MoS as it represents the scream the NL can pull out - like the soul hunter trilogy. I have an icon bearer, modelled as an apothecary etc)

If you play a khorne slaanesh mix, you'll get arguments.
If you play Night Lords but add in khorne berzerkers, you'll get arguments. People regard that as similar to playing blood angels and having a unit of thunderwolves just randomly in there.

As a chaos player my choice in this codex is to either play with self imposed nerfs or be accused of powergaming and general 'unfluffyness'

GW gave us the fluff for all the unique chaos legions and then didn't give us the rules to support them.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
GW gave us the fluff for all the unique chaos legions and then didn't give us the rules to support them.

That's the problem. Cult Legions can utilise their corresponding Marks, but those are often unnecessarily expensive. On the other hand, the Undivided Legions are left with nothing special; you can use the Marks/Cult troops to imitate their abilities/traits, but it's unfluffy. I've seen the old CSM Codex (edition 3.5)... would it really hurt to include such things as "Book of Nurgle" or "Book of Slaanesh"? Even the Undivided Legions got some stuff.

The Legions are defined by what they don't have just as much as by what they do have. The World Eaters are characterised both by brutal shock troops and overwhelming assaults, and also by their lack of subtlety and total intolerance of anything Slaaneshii. It is similar to the Space Wolves and their reluctance to use Teleports, lack of Combat Squads or inability to field Scouts. These limits exist because they are part of the Legion's character and just as definitive as the perks.

Also while we are on the subject, the actual representation of the Legions is limited to a single Troop choice and a Special Character. One would think that the Death Guard has access to Chosen, the elite Plague Marines that form the Lord's retinue. However the only representation we have suddenly Feels Pain and loses Fearless. They have apparently cleaned off their Plague Knives and traded in the Blight Grenades. Similarly, Sonic Weaponry is completely absent from any Emperors Children unit higher than the grunts. Khorne's Chosen are WS4 and prone to running away, cannot access Chainaxes and will lose their Furious Charge upon the death of an Icon Bearer.


I would like the Undivided Legions to be represented by something other than 'the cheap ones'. There should be more reason to field a Legionary than simply to save some points. In a world where every Loyalist Founding Chapter receives *2* special rules, in addition to entire codices, it would be nice to have the Chaos equivalents given some representation. I'd even be happy to pay for it.

I would like the Cult Legions to have Cult specialists. I would like access to Sonics, Chainaxes, Inferno Bolts and Plague Knives on everything from grunts to Terminators to Lords. I would like a Chaos Lord to charge at the same Strength value as his Berzerkers. I would like Rubric Terminators to be Fearless. Hell, I'd even accept a reduction in the capabilities of Cult units if it remains consistent. A Plague Marine isn't defined by T5 and FNP, but a Death Guard Terminator should be defined by whatever constitutes a Plague Marine, in bigger armour.
As it stands, the system is so vague as to make Legion representation a bodge-job at best and outright detrimental at worse. The Undivided Legions have no perks or use beyond saving points. The Cult Legions have no elite units or commanders without squinting your eyes and ignoring inconsistencies. Renegades and Traitors seem to have an awfully large number of Daemon Engines and Cult troops for such recent converts. The closest to being a real army is the Black Legion, so thanks for making a Supplement of the only army successfully written already.

As it is the Chaos Marine book tries to cover such a wide range of aspects that it fails to properly represent any of them, resulting in a generally Chaotic smear that falls apart as soon as you try to focus on any individual element within that.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I would like Rubric Terminators to be Fearless. Hell, I'd even accept a reduction in the capabilities of Cult units if it remains consistent.

You bring up a good point... Since you mention that of Rubric Terminators... Personally, I think that Rubric Marines (and by extension, terminators) should be Chaos "Legion of the Damned" minus the 5th edition rules of deep striking at random (and probably only teleport in if they are termies)

 PredaKhaine wrote:
[It's not all one sided, self imposed nerfings...

I'm playing a chosen based Night Lords chaos marine army. I use the mark of slaanesh - I get people telling me I shouldn't use marks at all as its not 'true night lords' all the time.
Its possible to play an army of alpha legion khorne berzerkers (as some of them will definitely have fallen to khorne since the heresy), but you'll be asked to justify it by your opponants.
I don't like games that start with a conversation goes along the lines of 'yeah, but they wouldn't use that would they, they don't fight like that' - then this leads into someone believing that marking my troops puts me into the 'doesn't care about fluff/only here to powergame' camp.

(My NL chosen use MoS as it represents the scream the NL can pull out - like the soul hunter trilogy. I have an icon bearer, modelled as an apothecary etc)

If you play a khorne slaanesh mix, you'll get arguments.
If you play Night Lords but add in khorne berzerkers, you'll get arguments. People regard that as similar to playing blood angels and having a unit of thunderwolves just randomly in there.

As a chaos player my choice in this codex is to either play with self imposed nerfs or be accused of powergaming and general 'unfluffyness'

GW gave us the fluff for all the unique chaos legions and then didn't give us the rules to support them.

Silly that people call using your codex completely powergaming. Your use of Marks of Slaanesh in your night lords, though, shows that you are looking outside the norm for which I give you kudos. Which works for me. Generally my whole attitude on other people telling me I am doing *my* army wrong is that it is MY army and I can build it however I wish as long as I follow the rules in the codex as they are presented. There is not a single rule in the chaos codex that requires Night Lords to not have any marks on their units, nor is there any restriction on having slaanesh and khorne in a force together in CSM, though I would argue that playing night lords and using slaanesh and khorne marks to set your units up as you prefer is not actually play slaanesh and khorne in a force together because you are playing nightlords and not a mix of Emeperor's Children and World Eater's. The only real restriction on marks is that a unit can only have one and an IC has to share the same mark as a unit it wants to join. So people self impose nerfs that everyone else expects them to use. What is the point of that? I just don't get it. I guess I'm weird in that as long as what my opponent puts on the table is codex legal I just don't care what fluff they want to build around it to give it meaning to themselves. All those nerfs on chaos and not using marks and cult troops except specifically in a CSM legion force who follows the appropriate god have nothing to do with actual codex legality. Fluff are not rules. They are context. As long as the rules are right an opponent's context is all for them really.

As for your last sentence my whole point here is that I disagree. GW did give us the rules to support them, but the players and the community put a bunch of restrictions on them to make them unusable in that context. Other people demanding you use your codex the way that they want you too isn't all that different from those who demand you paint your models the "right" way. If your Iyanden ghost warrior force isn't painted yellow or blue, it is *wrong*. I call just as much BS on that and most others do too, so why do people let others dictate how they are allowed to use their codex?

Skriker