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nkelsch wrote: The thing is, when it was made, it was a symbol of 'Pro-Slavery' no matter how you slice it.
Out of curiosity, what percentage of Confederate servicemen were slave owners?
WHO is fighting has nothing to do with WHY the government of the individual state chose to secede.
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But isn't that the discussion? People cannot claim 'I support what it original stood for' because that would be 'slavery'. And it only exists in its modern form due to racist backlash against government forced integration. So either you support it due to being 'pro-slavery' or 'anti-civil rights'. It never was an example or symbol of southern pride detached from the core issues of the civil war, which a major one was slavery. You can't unbundle the origin or meaning.
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That and just because you don't own slaves doesn't mean you arn't invested in the idea that you will eventually be able to afford them and become one of those cool rish guys with awesome plantations that live down the lane.
The first confederate flag looks just like the flag of Austria with a EU flag on its corner. Honestly I would not care realy for someone to use this flag though I do not see people often carrying flags around so I would probably wonder for a while that what is this person doing. Though I would be fine with the use of the confederate flag because if the southern states want to have a flag that differents themselves from other americans why not. Though I am not a American so I might not know.
nkelsch wrote: People cannot claim 'I support what it original stood for' because that would be 'slavery'.
Correct. That is different from saying it was originally a "symbol of hate." This term "hate" is not some eternal concept that equally applies to all periods of human history throughout the world. It is a term invented during the 1990s in a pretty specific political context.
That said, the stars & bars can and are used as a symbol of racial hatred these days.
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LordofHats wrote: That and just because you don't own slaves doesn't mean you arn't invested in the idea that you will eventually be able to afford them and become one of those cool rish guys with awesome plantations that live down the lane.
Or that your way of life depends on someone else owning slaves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 19:01:30
LordofHats wrote: That and just because you don't own slaves doesn't mean you arn't invested in the idea that you will eventually be able to afford them and become one of those cool rish guys with awesome plantations that live down the lane.
And ride one of those lovingly tortured/maimed horses with the stupid gait because it's "smoother", whilst overseeing your plantation.
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If i see you fly the flag I will probably assume you are a little bit racist. Thats not to say my mind wont be changed once getting to know you, but that will be the first impression in my mind.
There were a number of Confederate flags, and this one emerged eventually as the accepted official flag to symbolise the Southern States' brave struggle to end the institution of human slavery in the USA.
I have no idea why it would be controversial for people to celebrate it today.
I dont see the flag as a symbol of outright racism nor southern pride. Instead, I view it as a symbol of defiance. Defiance towards a changing world that has long since grown out of the its bearers old fashioned beliefs. Its not only defiance but contempt for the new ways. The flag represents the old ways of the south and the inner desire of some to those ways.
Or its a flag on top of the General Lee. Which is okay by me.
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The Confederate Battle Flag, which is really the flag in question, was used heavily by fighting men instead of the CSA national flag, which changed twice and was uninspiring. It was then used as the flag for Confederate veterans groups, and by some units of Americans (usually mostly southern) in the two World Wars.
So, as a flag for militant southerners/rebels, it was a source of pride in battle prowess, like any other battle flag. It's this thread of history that apologist for the flag like, because it's about heritage and pride.
The problem, of course, is that civilian use was rare until the Civil Rights era, when states began flying the flag as a sign of protest to federal actions desegregating the south. Much like the civil war, the high minded reason was "states rights," but of course the actual controversy was the right of states to have Jim Crow laws.
So, like nearly any symbol of history and controversy, there is both good and bad associated with the flag. I'm sure some that fly it do so out of pride, with no hate in their heart. I'm sure some that fly it, are bigots. In general, I think that flying the flag is, while not always racist, often done out of a callousness to the causes it's stood for.
carlos13th wrote: If i see you fly the flag I will probably assume you are a little bit racist.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
carlos13th wrote: If i see you fly the flag I will probably assume you are a little bit racist.
Well, It's a little bit like everybody's favorite racial slur. It often means something different depending on who is speaking to whom. Plenty of black people use it as a sign of affection, while many use the term to demean those they see as lower class.
I feel safe assuming somebody that uses the term more often than sporadically probably has some sort of racial bias.
Manchu wrote: Or that your way of life depends on someone else owning slaves.
Does your way of life depend only on things you approve of? I'm just curious. I'm not overly wild about many aspects of America, but I'd put my overall allegiance to the country over them were it engaged in a massive war.
Seaward wrote: I'm not overly wild about many aspects of America, but I'd put my overall allegiance to the country over them were it engaged in a massive war.
Me too, especially if that massive war involved my country putting down a rebellion aiming keep certain people enslaved.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 20:25:55
I always thought that the same rule that allowed black people to use racist terms like the N word,
allowed redneck people to be redneck...
on a more serious note,
that being said, symbols have different meanings to different people.... you choose your personal meaning based on your personal interpretation of things like history/cuture/ect.
lots of my hindu friends have been called racists because lots of their art/statue/ect have swastikas on them...
should they give up their symbol as well, just because some people claim its an inheritly "bad" symbol?
and despite the hindus NEVER having their symbol mean what the nazi's had it mean, that racist meaning has still been seen in the hindu symbol by some.
"I've been getting a good response with the Hitler name; sales are good. I'm concerned that business could drop off once I change it," Chandani told the Los Angeles Times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 20:43:09
and despite the hindus NEVER having their symbol mean what the nazi's had it mean, that racist meaning has still been seen in the hindu symbol by some.
Which is why context is so important. I mean, shouting the word "fore" at a golf course will get a different reaction then at the beach.
I'm no fan of the Battle Flag, but I'd never begrudge reenactors in uniform from flying it.
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