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Desubot wrote:and why in the world would you even bother sending up a land raider into melta range when you should be shooting the st 5/5 hurricanes and st 7/4 rending assault cannons into the units caring them.

You're saying that the way to kill a carnifex is with hurricane bolters?

My point was that if you bring a land raider full of flimsy close combat guys into range of an opponent with a horde, then all you're going to kill is a speedbump (not a monstrous creature), and then the flimsy squad will get wiped out, and the land raider has even brought into melta/assault range for you as well.

Going to tyranid in specific, what you're looking at is a cheap critter screen to eat the charge of the CC unit, and then the next turn, the dakkafex murders the CC unit, and another carnifex assaults and explodes the land raider. That's going to be 550 points exchanged for 50, and not a very good solution to to many carnificies.

Also, there are several sources of S10 out there. All you've got to do is reduce the T by 1, and then hit it with one of those weapons. Coming up with a more convoluted way of making an S10 weapon when you could just take an S10 weapon doesn't seem to me a straight better solution.

If you don't mind spending more points then make the ablative wounds more durable. Crusaders instead of acolytes would give you power axes (or whatever) and 3++ re-rollable saves in hth. It would help save the unit after it decimates whatever it hits in its first assault.

course its significantly more expensive... could be fun to try

This is why I run shooty Tyranids. A single unit that costs 1/3 of your points that I can just avoid, while shooting your other models, then on turn 3 can bait with a sacrificial squad, and then win on objectives... yep.

I'd like to play against this actually. Gimmick lists (win big/lose big) are usually good for a wacky evening of 40k.

war wrote:
If you don't mind spending more points then make the ablative wounds more durable. Crusaders instead of acolytes would give you power axes (or whatever) and 3++ re-rollable saves in hth. It would help save the unit after it decimates whatever it hits in its first assault.

course its significantly more expensive... could be fun to try

Re-download your codex. DCA and crusaders come with power swords now rather than power weapons. I know, sad day.

Wait, what?

The newer versions of the warbands restrict the Crusaders and DCA's to Power Swords. Although that particular change has not, as far as I'm aware, been back-ported to Codex: Grey Knights.

 Ailaros wrote:

Desubot wrote:and why in the world would you even bother sending up a land raider into melta range when you should be shooting the st 5/5 hurricanes and st 7/4 rending assault cannons into the units caring them.

You're saying that the way to kill a carnifex is with hurricane bolters?

My point was that if you bring a land raider full of flimsy close combat guys into range of an opponent with a horde, then all you're going to kill is a speedbump (not a monstrous creature), and then the flimsy squad will get wiped out, and the land raider has even brought into melta/assault range for you as well.

Going to tyranid in specific, what you're looking at is a cheap critter screen to eat the charge of the CC unit, and then the next turn, the dakkafex murders the CC unit, and another carnifex assaults and explodes the land raider. That's going to be 550 points exchanged for 50, and not a very good solution to to many carnificies.

Also, there are several sources of S10 out there. All you've got to do is reduce the T by 1, and then hit it with one of those weapons. Coming up with a more convoluted way of making an S10 weapon when you could just take an S10 weapon doesn't seem to me a straight better solution.

Yeah still don't see what meltas have to do with Nids. ether way though it seems like a much better idea to sit back shoot up the smalls. While the dakkafexs only option (i cant remember the S of the weapon so correct me if im wrong) would be to walk up and punch it open. at which point it should not only in range but clear from the smaller screener units. but that was my point about the psybolt crusader. to shoot the chaff away. and melta threats first at range

I would hardly call this unit flimsy assuming your not playing like a 5 year old. it has a lot of potential damage and can easily wipe out many different threats, not just fexs. It will obviously have issues with a big blob of IG or a green tide. but it should do well against MCs of most type.

Edit: Wait when did they change it? NOOOOOOOOOO MY CONVERSIONS!

The unit is a handful of mostly T3 models with mostly terrible armor. This is not a difficult unit to wipe out, even if you play like a 40k god, and not like a kindergartner. You run into one unit, and then maybe or maybe not kill it (and is far from certain to be the unit you intended to use it against), and then you're wiped out.

It's really hard to see how this unit would make 550 points back against an even slightly competent opponent, much less go on a rampage and be a hard counter to monstrous creatures.

This is why the traditional Inquisitorial murderblob centers around a handful of crusaders, a party of DCA, and a couple priests/inquisitors. Volume of attacks and decent AP both to deal with MEQ (formerly TEQ) and decent sized squads. They'll go right through a 10man unit without breaking a sweat.

IT may be a T3 unit in awful armor, but for the most part its not going to be out in the open forever. and you can always embark back into the raider.

Pysco grenades giving a relatively decent chance at causing havoc
psyk out nades messing with psykers
hammerhand (if its even necessary for the task at hand) and rad grenades allowing for more wounds (most of which should be ap2 or 3)
Add in fun relics for hatred, or Monster hunter nids. and it should wipe at least 1 unit for sure, though they should be multi charging to get the most benefits out of the grenades. (and obviously not charging chaff)

and to be fair. its not like this is the only unit in your entire army, hopefully you brought your anti air and general shooters to take care of the threats at hand. (personally run them as allies with SM with TFCs to great effect)

Edit: Though i add in a few crusaders for the invul and put them in front or behind depending on the situation.

 Desubot wrote:
IT may be a T3 unit in awful armor, but for the most part its not going to be out in the open forever. and you can always embark back into the raider.

Pysco grenades giving a relatively decent chance at causing havoc
psyk out nades messing with psykers
hammerhand (if its even necessary for the task at hand) and rad grenades allowing for more wounds (most of which should be ap2 or 3)
Add in fun relics for hatred, or Monster hunter nids. and it should wipe at least 1 unit for sure, though they should be multi charging to get the most benefits out of the grenades. (and obviously not charging chaff)

and to be fair. its not like this is the only unit in your entire army, hopefully you brought your anti air and general shooters to take care of the threats at hand. (personally run them as allies with SM with TFCs to great effect)

Edit: Though i add in a few crusaders for the invul and put them in front or behind depending on the situation.

See, now we're no longer talking about Acolyte bodies tanking for a blob of Priests smashing everything. We're talking about the more traditional Inquisitor assault squad. Which is an undeniably powerful assault unit.

But the main component is that they with the grenade inquisitor can smash there way through T6, the chaff they come with could be anything.

In fact the preist make em better with the reroll saves. which you can do when you dont need the smash.

 Desubot wrote:
But the main component is that they with the grenade inquisitor can smash there way through T6, the chaff they come with could be anything.

In fact the preist make em better with the reroll saves. which you can do when you dont need the smash.

The chaff with the Inquisitors could be anything, or the chaff they fight? Because the Inquisitor chaff can't be anything. Acolytes have low initiative, strength, attacks, and saves. Granted they're 4pts a model, but there's a reason for that - they're pitiful.

Quick thing to point out... Overwatch? We're talking 36 Strength 6 shots (BS 1 yes, but still) that can murder the front rank of whomever dares charge, including ID for T3 models.

Or, charge squad with Dreadknight, kill all.

 jifel wrote:
Quick thing to point out... Overwatch? We're talking 36 Strength 6 shots (BS 1 yes, but still) that can murder the front rank of whomever dares charge, including ID for T3 models.

Or, charge squad with Dreadknight, kill all.

Being charged is largely a nonissue, them being in a Land Raider. Also, rad and psychotroke grenades take effect even if the unit is charged rather than charging. They'll loose hatred, that's about it. Overwatch does pose a concern though.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Being charged is largely a nonissue, them being in a Land Raider. Also, rad and psychotroke grenades take effect even if the unit is charged rather than charging. They'll loose hatred, that's about it. Overwatch does pose a concern though.

You are speaking of a single landraider without any PFG, etc. as if it was gauranteed to get where it wants. Against a codex which has a ~150 pts two haywire shot FMC. It is not actually guaranteed at all and many of the new popular lists (ie 2-3 crones) have a decent shot at taking it out. There is a reason that TH/SS termi in landraider are considered unreliable for delivery.

With crusaders the unit is much much better as overwatch does very little to 3++ rerollable and if the landraider gets popped the unit has some chance to get where it wants. Even then a smaller more streamlined unit in a stormraven will often be more useful and much cheaper.

 ansacs wrote:

You are speaking of a single landraider without any PFG, etc. as if it was gauranteed to get where it wants. Against a codex which has a ~150 pts two haywire shot FMC. It is not actually guaranteed at all and many of the new popular lists (ie 2-3 crones) have a decent shot at taking it out. There is a reason that TH/SS termi in landraider are considered unreliable for delivery.

With crusaders the unit is much much better as overwatch does very little to 3++ rerollable and if the landraider gets popped the unit has some chance to get where it wants. Even then a smaller more streamlined unit in a stormraven will often be more useful and much cheaper.

Well sure, if your LR is the only thing near the enemy and the rest of your army is ineffective enough that it can be ignored. And no, two haywire shots are not good enough to down a land raid. It's enough to reliably remove to hullpoints off a landraider. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed delivery, but Nid shooting is far from the most reliable thing for bringing down AV 14 - and very few nid lists plan for anti AV 14 shooting.

We are talking a 600 pts egg holder versus 300 pts of shooting 4 haywire shots. How much extra threat do you have compared to the opponent? Talk about the rest of the list is extremely unhelpful when we are comparing essentially a deathstar against a more The list.

Dear those who are saying this unit is expensive by including the transport cost in the price - this is ridiculous! It would be exactly the same logic as saying a dire avenger squad is too expensive because its wave serpent makes it over 200pts! The transport is a seperate entity to the unit. The unit is 101pts at its cheapest - stop including the transportation costs, ive already dealt with that please read my posts.
As to the speed bump issue - I have also tried to address this in the first post.
I really do appreciate the feedback but it honestly feels as though you have read the first few lines then got bored and not bothered with the rest. I addressed those point in the original post.
Overatch is a good point but there are 7 to 9 4pt wound sponges.
Also if the opponent focuses on the raider - all the av12 chimeras are not being focused upon.
This unit can kill 3 carnifex on average in one phase. For 101pts. Or a hive tyrant. Or a deamon prince. Or a tervigon. Or a riptide (if it can catch it). The only problems it has are EXACTLY the same as every other assault unit (well not all because it can still ride in an av14 assault vehicle unlike many assault units) but you still see assault in the game today. Are you HONESTLY telling me a 101pt unit that can wipe out an entire fex brood or any other MC in one go is too expensive? Because if so, that means I will have to come up with a way of making gretchin mc killers...


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As to haywire. That could be an issue en mass. Say a 5+ cover save. Needs 7 hits roughly, needs 10-11 shots at bs4.
Without a 5+ needs, 5 hits roughly. Takes 8 shots at bs4.

 ansacs wrote:
We are talking a 600 pts egg holder versus 300 pts of shooting 4 haywire shots. How much extra threat do you have compared to the opponent? Talk about the rest of the list is extremely unhelpful when we are comparing essentially a deathstar against a more The list.

Actually, we're not talking about 600pts of deathstar versus 300pts of haywire. That's a silly comparison to make. I could compare the same 600pts of deathstar filled LR to 300 pts of Lascannon devs. But comparing AV to anti-AV is silly. Yes, if you bring the counter to an LR you can kill an LR. This isn't news. The discussion is how well the units inside do. If the LR dies, they're dead, that's just universally true.

Also the cheapest version of this unit that still gets the job done is 481pts WITH raider and two ICs that can join and buff other units so are not a part of this units cost (I know I keep saying this but I'll keep saying it until people read it).
On a side note imagine people saying a tactical squad cost over 350 pts because tiggy cast some powers on it...


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4 haywire shots against a LR in the open takes an average of 2 hps off at bs 4. So you would need 600pts of haywire and 4 FA slots to take it down in the open.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Dear those who are saying this unit is expensive by including the transport cost in the price - this is ridiculous! It would be exactly the same logic as saying a dire avenger squad is too expensive because its wave serpent makes it over 200pts! The transport is a seperate entity to the unit. The unit is 101pts at its cheapest - stop including the transportation costs, ive already dealt with that please read my posts.
As to the speed bump issue - I have also tried to address this in the first post.
I really do appreciate the feedback but it honestly feels as though you have read the first few lines then got bored and not bothered with the rest. I addressed those point in the original post.
Overatch is a good point but there are 7 to 9 4pt wound sponges.
Also if the opponent focuses on the raider - all the av12 chimeras are not being focused upon.
This unit can kill 3 carnifex on average in one phase. For 101pts. Or a hive tyrant. Or a deamon prince. Or a tervigon. Or a riptide (if it can catch it). The only problems it has are EXACTLY the same as every other assault unit (well not all because it can still ride in an av14 assault vehicle unlike many assault units) but you still see assault in the game today. Are you HONESTLY telling me a 101pt unit that can wipe out an entire fex brood or any other MC in one go is too expensive? Because if so, that means I will have to come up with a way of making gretchin mc killers...


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As to haywire. That could be an issue en mass. Say a 5+ cover save. Needs 7 hits roughly, needs 10-11 shots at bs4.
Without a 5+ needs, 5 hits roughly. Takes 8 shots at bs4.

Wave Serpents are good. Like, ridiculously so. Against many more targets than the Land Raider. As are Dire Avengers relative to the Inquisitorial blob. There's the same issue here as comparing haywire to a land raider - If you compare a unit to that which it is supposed to counter, OF COURSE it looks good. That's a vacuum that doesn't happen in games, though.


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Poly Ranger wrote:
Also the cheapest version of this unit that still gets the job done is 481pts WITH raider and two ICs that can join and buff other units so are not a part of this units cost (I know I keep saying this but I'll keep saying it until people read it).
On a side note imagine people saying a tactical squad cost over 350 pts because tiggy cast some powers on it...


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4 haywire shots against a LR in the open takes an average of 2 hps off at bs 4. So you would need 600pts of haywire and 4 FA slots to take it down in the open.

For this edit, a tac squad doesn't require Tiggy to function. The blob requires the Land Raider to function.

I know the wave serpent is better but the same logic applies.
With tiggy I was comparing tiggy with the inquisitors not raider, as he is there to buff other units as well.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know the wave serpent is better but the same logic applies.
With tiggy I was comparing tiggy with the inquisitors not raider, as he is there to buff other units as well.

The logic does not apply. The Wave Serpent and Avengers are both worth their cost, even together. The output considerable damage against a wide variety of units at a respectable range. The Inquisitors as well, are mandatory for the unit to operate. Without hammerhand and grenades they don't work. Tiggy is not required for a tac squad.

The unit does still work, very well, without the inquisitors, it just requires the inquisitors to buff the unit so they can take out t6 mcs reliably. Just like it would take tiggy with perfect timing for a PC to take out teq/meq in cover.
I did not realise that Dire Avengers themselves would not be shot up without a serpent. The same criticism being put to this unit.
Yes Dire Avengers have respectable output at range - good for what they do. But they wouldnt put much of a dint on an mc barring a couple of wounds due to rending. This unit eats mcs for breakfast. Both have different roles which they are good at.
Psybolts makes a crusader worth its points. It isnt worth it imo without them. Some people use these in gunlines not for transporting - so they can be considerd seperate to the unit as they fill a role of their own.
At the end of the day it is a 101pt unit. If the raider is an issue for some people -run 3 of these in chimeras if you like. Disembark behind the chimeras, opponent has to invest in destroying 3 12 wound dirt cheap units now, the inquisitors can join any who survive.

Poly Ranger wrote:
The unit does still work, very well, without the inquisitors, it just requires the inquisitors to buff the unit so they can take out t6 mcs reliably. Just like it would take tiggy with perfect timing for a PC to take out teq/meq in cover.
I did not realise that Dire Avengers themselves would not be shot up without a serpent. The same criticism being put to this unit.
Yes Dire Avengers have respectable output at range - good for what they do. But they wouldnt put much of a dint on an mc barring a couple of wounds due to rending. This unit eats mcs for breakfast. Both have different roles which they are good at.
Psybolts makes a crusader worth its points. It isnt worth it imo without them. Some people use these in gunlines not for transporting - so they can be considerd seperate to the unit as they fill a role of their own.
At the end of the day it is a 101pt unit. If the raider is an issue for some people -run 3 of these in chimeras if you like. Disembark behind the chimeras, opponent has to invest in destroying 3 12 wound dirt cheap units now, the inquisitors can join any who survive.

It requires the Inquisitors to kill T6 MCs, which was the point of the unit I thought. Just as you say here that Dire Avengers can't put much of a dent in MCs, where this unit still eats them - but only with the Inquisitors will it do this. 5 Dire Avengers shooting is still 15 shots, 10 hits, 1.667 rends. That's damn respectable from their points cost, AND they unlock the Wave Serpent - which is incomparably good. Yeah, they'll get shot up outside the serpent - but they cost less than the aforementioned Inquisitorial unit, and can reliably shoot back. They're also not a target like the Inquisitorial unit, because they aren't threatening to instagib MCs or murder in assault.

I suppose I'm just not agreeing with you that it's a 101pt unit. True, the core is 101pt. It requires a 110pt further investment to be able to do the job the thread title and OP have in mind for it, and a further 265pts to get it there. I can't look past that. It's too dependent on other units to be cost effective for a very specific duty.

True - it is a specific duty, and should in no way be included in TAC lists but rather tailored lists. It does require those extra points to function in the way it is intended, but those extra points do extra things themselves to justify their own points costs and so I wouldn't personally count them as part of the units points cost as they can quite effectively function without the unit. They still have purpose without the unit, unlike say, a rhino.

All swords now huh.... well that sucks. I used WHFB chaos warriors with axes for converting and they look half decent. Sure the shields are the important part, but still a pain. Wish they made it an upgrade instead of just omitting things...

I still think the basic idea of this squad is a good idea, but suffers from the same things as every assault squad in the game right now. Crusaders will give it survivability, land raider as well but you'll still likely be eating overwatch and an army's worth of shooting in the turn after you wipe your target. Not cheap enough to use as a throw away unit and not durable enough to be seen as much else.

Cool stuff. I've been runnig priests and hammer hand inqusitors with various grenafe in my SoB blob squads and thry're awesome. I've been troking my chin thinkig about a LRC with Psybolt as a delivery system for pure henchmen and this sounds great. i'd love to doubleout a swarmlord with this etup to ee my opponents face.

What's the math hammer looking like for this unit vs say a chapter master wih EW and a 3++ would that keep this unt tied up? Lots of marines in my meta which is why I ask.

D

Lets look at the cheapest unit. If they charge the chap master and he is solo, on a bike with AA, SE and a TH, he will kill 3 acolytes and challenge a priest out before they hit back. The remaining 7 acolytes plus the non-powermaul priest will give 25 attacks, may as well count the inquisitors as well since they will only have ap3. This is 35 st5 attacks. Hitting on a 4+ with reroll = 26 on average hit. Wounding on a 3+ with reroll gives 23 wounds. The smash priest who wasnt challenged out will cause 2 to 3 wounds. So after suffering 3 casualties, the unit will cause the chappy to take 25 or 26 armour saves on average.

That is of course if he has gone solo after leaving a bike unit.


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2 or 3 of those saves will be against 3++ rather than a 2+...