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1) You're assuming no Shadows in the Warp.
2) You're assuming no Overwatch. A triple Dakkafex brood will average 5 wounds against your unit - what's the armor save on the guys leading the charge? 3+? so 2 die? Seems good.

Armour save is 5+. 5 wounds is 20pts of wound sponge models who are there precisely to take such shots... shadows in the warp will only effect the two hammerhand rolls the rest are not psychic powers. But it could throw a cog in the works if unlucky with the rolls.

Since you need the Hammerhands to actually do the ID...

Exactly. What is shadows rules in the new dex? Same as the old?

Desubot wrote:IT may be a T3 unit in awful armor, but for the most part its not going to be out in the open forever. and you can always embark back into the raider.

But it's going to need to be out in the open for at least one turn. And we're playing with 6th ed wound allocation, which means your opponent doesn't need to kill all (or even most) of those acolytes before he starts killing priests and inquisitors, at which point the whole thing falls apart.

But, you know, we can be more systematic about this:

Force concentration: You're fine with dudes in a land raider, but you need to rely on your opponent failing to do this correctly. Your opponent can't throw up screeners, or use one unit to kill the land raider while another kills the squad inside, for example. He needs to leave your intended target alone, out in the open, unsupported. Served up on a silver platter.

Time: The absolute fastest you're likely to get into close combat is turn 2. Even if you accomplish this, in order to make their points back, you need to kill three carnifexes. That means you kill one on the turn you arrive, and then kill one more every turn (because the game well might end then). This is going to require a fair bit of generosity on your opponent's part.

Killing Power: Yes, in a perfect world, this unit can one-shot a carnifex, but we're not talking about a perfect world. You're talking about a unit that must have both inquisitors or it doesn't work at all. You're talking about a unit that must have priests, and preferably a few of them. The moment you start taking casualties to key models, the whole plan instantly falls apart. But that's not all, of course, I'm looking at a unit that casts hammerhand twice and three castings of smash. That's FIVE chances to roll a 2, 11, or 12. If any of those psychic tests fail, you're in a bad way, and if either of those hammerhands fail, then you're just done. Moreover, once you start getting perils, you start losing key models, and the whole thing falls apart.

Durability: As mentioned, this is super important, what with losing key units causing imminent failure of the plan. This is, of course, a serious problem. Inside the land raider you're fine, but once you leave the land raider (outside is where you're going to be spending every turn of the game but one in order to do enough killing), that drops precipitously. Perils and overwatch kill models for free. 6th ed wound allocation means they don't need to wipe away all the abblative wounds. The fact that everybody's T3 and has bad armor saves means you're only needing to throw around a few wounds onto them anyways, which is easily achievable.

So, what's the end result? In order for this to work as planned, your opponent needs to line up three carnifexes out in the open, and refuse to support them (or let them support each other), and then let you drive up and murder them one by one without attacking the squad between assaults, and you need to pass all of your dozens of psychic tests without ever rolling perils.

I don't know what fantasy world some people are living in, but I can't see how this situation would ever come up in regular play.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

...Dire Avengers can't put much of a dent in MCs, where this unit still eats them - but only with the Inquisitors will it do this. 5 Dire Avengers shooting is still 15 shots...

5 DA's are shooting 10 shots actually... wish it was 15... <Grin>

rigeld2 wrote:
1) You're assuming no Shadows in the Warp.
2) You're assuming no Overwatch. A triple Dakkafex brood will average 5 wounds against your unit - what's the armor save on the guys leading the charge? 3+? so 2 die? Seems good.

11 hits = 9-10 wounds average, so the closest 3 or so die.

Force concentration: Seriously there is a perfectly good land raider available to take out screener units before the assault phase and not to mention the rest of the army list. and unless they are running Tervigons to pump out more, there will be a finite number of chumpers that nids can take. Most rest of what nids can take cant reliable open a raider from range ether (with the exception being that haywire missile thing but thats still a low chance.) it gives you all day to position and take out whats needed in shooting and or assault.

Time: the game is not about completely wiping your enemy before turn five. If a unit can remove and hold an objective by turn 5 to get the VP they have made there points. and chances objectives ore near objectives will be where they leave the fexs anyway.

Killing Power: There is an issue with hammer hand though with SitW lowering ld by 3(?) for physic(?) tests, but the unit should still put out. 4 st5 ap 2 per maul priests as well. war hymes are LD checks not a psychic power so no issues with that other than rolling 11+ (which is a risk for everyone)

Durability: Losing key models is always an issue for most any army. but perils and over watch are hardly a sure thing (unless your tau) and is the reason you pick up crusaders or just cheap hencis to block most of these shots.

So, what's the end result?: the End result should be that unless you are an incredibly unlucky person or the opponent took nothing but anti land raiders, the unit should be at least contesting an objective by turn 5

I dont understand how people can think everyone opponent will always have a 100% counter and every mission will be PtA

Ailaros - it is not going to need to be out in the open for at least 1 turn until it has completed its mission. A landraider is an assault vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A dakka brood will get 6 hits average on overwatch not 11.


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Don't forget if hammerhand doesnt go off those 8-12 st7 ap 2 attacks wounding on a 2+ will be getting rerolls to hit and wound!


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Poly Ranger wrote:
Ailaros - it is not going to need to be out in the open for at least 1 turn until it has completed its mission. A landraider is an assault vehicle. Also the double 1 makes no difference to priests as it is not a psychic power. It doe not NEED the hammerhand as without them, they will still be wounding on a 4+ and get double the amount of attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A dakka brood will get 6 hits average on overwatch not 11.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't forget if hammerhand doesnt go off those 8-12 st5 ap 2 attacks wounding on a 4+ will be getting rerolls to hit and wound!

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Edit ^


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Also - it on average kills THREE fexes in ONE phase.


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Have you read the original post? Because I don't believe you habe looking at your points.

SaganGree wrote:

5 DA's are shooting 10 shots actually... wish it was 15... <Grin>

Could've sworn they had assault 3 guns. Oh well, just me being angry at Eldar I suppose.

Don't they have bladestorm?

Bladestorm is the rending thing now, it doesn't add shots anymore.

Ahhh yeh totally forgot that! Thank god - rending with three shots would be crazy.

Desubot wrote:there is a perfectly good land raider available to take out screener units before the assault phase and not to mention the rest of the army list. and unless they are running Tervigons to pump out more, there will be a finite number of chumpers that nids can take. Most rest of what nids can take cant reliable open a raider from range ether (with the exception being that haywire missile thing but thats still a low chance.) it gives you all day to position and take out whats needed in shooting and or assault.

And what's the rest of your opponent's army doing? Nothing. If you can concentrate force with a land raider, your opponent can concentrate force against a land raider. The problem still persists.

And the solution above falls into the other problems. Are you going to spend turns 1-3 shooting something with your land raider and only get into assault on turn 4, right before the game might end?

Desubot wrote:Time: the game is not about completely wiping your enemy before turn five. If a unit can remove and hold an objective by turn 5 to get the VP they have made there points. and chances objectives ore near objectives will be where they leave the fexs anyway.

Are you going to hold an objective right under your opponent's nose with a few T3 models?

Further, are you going to drive up, successfully make it into an assault and win despite all the drawbacks, survive a turn of counterattack, get in a vehicle that's in assault range of your opponent, and then just drive off? That seems pretty generous of your opponent. Plus, this squad was billed as something that can kill stuff. If all you wanted was to hold an obejctive, you could do it much better for much cheaper (and kill carnifexes better to boot) with other options.

Desubot wrote:Killing Power: There is an issue with hammer hand though with SitW lowering ld by 3(?) for physic(?) tests, but the unit should still put out. 4 st5 ap 2 per maul priests as well. war hymes are LD checks not a psychic power so no issues with that other than rolling 11+ (which is a risk for everyone)

And is still a risk. And if we're talking about hammerhand only going off on a 7, and you need BOTH of them to go off to cause ID, then this plan STARTS at working only half the time.

Yes, it still has decent strength attacks with good Ap, so it's not completely worthless. But now we're talking about 4 attacks that have to hit, and have to wound, and even at 100%, they're still not killing the carnifex. Most like what you're looking at is doing some damage, and the TMC doing some damage back over a few turns, which the inquisitor squad might win... but will they win in time? Will your opponent do nothing to bail their MC out?

Desubot wrote:Durability: Losing key models is always an issue for most any army. but perils and over watch are hardly a sure thing (unless your tau) and is the reason you pick up crusaders or just cheap hencis to block most of these shots.

But they happen.

Plus, this is also representing only some of the problems. Yes, you have an assault ramp transport, but if your opponent's MC is in or behind cover, you still have to roll 3D6 and pick the lowest to get into assault at all. If you fail to get in range, then you've wasted a turn, and give your opponent two free overwatches and a turn to kill your squad BEFORE they even make it into their first close combat. Unless you drive the land raider forward for an extra turn, in which case you're wasting time, and opening up your opponent to assault the land raider, which if they kill now you're looking at the chance of taking damage from a vehicle explosion or getting stuck with more bad difficult terrain roles.

Yes, these are small things, but it's a big bag of small things. The more low-chance things you invite into a plan that has to work perfectly to work at all, the worse off you are, because invariably you're going to see one or two of those low-chance things actually happening, and screwing everything up.

And all units have some amount of losing-key-models problem, but it doesn't effect everything equally. In the example I gave above where instead you take a bunch of guard squads with lascannons, taking out a single lascannon is bad for that squad, but it doesn't mean very much for the plan as a whole, wherein there are still lots of lascannons doing things just as effectively as they were before.

Inquisition lists have more than enough firepower to brush away a screening gaunt unit. At the same time you are forcing your opponent to move to counter you giving you the initiative. So you agree HALF the time the squad will wipe out 3 fexes... when in shadows range? I can live with that. The other half the time they will cause ~ 9 wounds not including acolytes if neither hammerhand works.
It is not a unit that will go in unsupported - it will have support units nearby (not just the raider) if the opponent counter attacks, which im sure they will, they will not be focusing on these units.
Yes there are things that can go wrong - most of which apply to all assault units. But it is a unit which has a good chance to do a lot of damage. You dismiss it as terrible but it most certainly isnt.

"And what's the rest of your opponent's army doing? Nothing." All things considered probably not. what does a general Nid list have that would take care of raider out side MC CC?. while the raider can split fire which guns that very much ignore the armor of a lot of what they have.

"Are you going to hold an objective right under your opponent's nose with a few T3 models? " obviously not and it would depend on the situation. and in some situation if possible would be best to multi charge and lock (fearless) with at least a 50% chance that it will screw em up (psyco/out grenades)

The raider can sit there and pick off whats left or work as it screen to keep the objective safe.

"they're still not killing the carnifex" Really? even if they failed to cast both HH, it will still be 4 attacks per at st 5 vs t 5, with 4s to hit, 4s to wound or better depending on the other war hymens, and at that 1/6 chance to auto hit, 1/6 chance to make em initiative 1, and a 1/6 chance they will attack them selves. unless im wrong and fexs have more than 4 wounds that's at least 1 dead fex.

Anyway i agree there are issues like any other multiple interaction units and it wont be always consistent but the unit should have a very good chance at multiple situations that can call for them.

I think we've got the idea of what the unit should do. It's good, don't get me wrong, but I think this thread is just going to devolve into a lot of hypotheticals that don't help anyone.

I like this as it gives nid players something to have to consider when building no brainer zilla lists.

However it comes to 600pts yes, how many lascannon can you buy with that?

531 if going dual paowermaul priests, basic priest, 9 aacolytes, both inquisitors with required loadout and crusader with psybolts and mm.
3 dev squads with 12 las and a tac with las for 540 is the cheapest I can think of. 13 lascannons then.
But the crusader does put out the anti-horde firepower too. And you can still get 2 buffing characters.
Both have their strengths. The devs wont have to get into harms way and have very good range. Whilst the henchmen squad wont have to worry about cover saves and can take them out in one go.

 Desubot wrote:
"And what's the rest of your opponent's army doing? Nothing." All things considered probably not. what does a general Nid list have that would take care of raider out side MC CC?. while the raider can split fire which guns that very much ignore the armor of a lot of what they have.

Crones. And a Crusader doesn't have much that is AP3.

You need 8 haywire missiles on average at bs4 to destroy a raider in the open.

Vindicator @120 will pop fexes if they have no cover saves.

Sorry if its been mentioned but are you testing if the hymn goes through by the LD 10 of the Inquisitor or the LD 7 of the priest?

 Elgrun wrote:
Sorry if its been mentioned but are you testing if the hymn goes through by the LD 10 of the Inquisitor or the LD 7 of the priest?

Inq will be at ld7 anyway if he has hammerhand.

 Filch wrote:
Vindicator @120 will pop fexes if they have no cover saves.

Fexes are T6, so no.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Vindicator @120 will pop fexes if they have no cover saves.

Fexes are T6, so no.

This entire thread revolves around dropping them to T5 for an instant-kill.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Vindicator @120 will pop fexes if they have no cover saves.

Fexes are T6, so no.

This entire thread revolves around dropping them to T5 for an instant-kill.

In melee with Rad Grenades. You can't Vindicator yourself while in melee, can you?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


In melee with Rad Grenades. You can't Vindicator yourself while in melee, can you?

Enfeeble or DA Knights rad grenades. But now we're getting further from the original unit discussed.

MarkyMark wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:
Sorry if its been mentioned but are you testing if the hymn goes through by the LD 10 of the Inquisitor or the LD 7 of the priest?

Inq will be at ld7 anyway if he has hammerhand.

Priests aren't casting psychic powers so will be successful on the inquisitors ld10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hammerhand will however be ld7 in shadows range.

I realize this thread has devolved but I would add the my INQ codex only allows psyflame ammo and not psybolt ammo, per the original loadout by original poster...