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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hive Fleet Cerberus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
in the 41st Millennium there is no good, there is no evil, there are only perspectives. And war.

The Imperium actually though isn't really that bad at all save for bad Hive Worlds. As an organization, it isn't that bad so long as you aren't an underhiver. The IOM just sucks if you happen to be near HERESY or XENOS, or are an abhuman. Sure, you wouldn't choose to live there, but say, it's actually livable in how Soviet Russia was livable.

Liveable, yeah, but barely so. Miss church one day? Death for being a Heretic. Forget to pray to the Emperor? Life in prison (If those even exist). See a Webway gate? Death.

Give me one example where this actually happens in the BL. Hint, there probably won't be. People tend to really inflate the crapsack nature of the IOM, it's just the problem of people constantly repeating something until it's a meme. 1D4Chan is especially guilty of this.

Legacy with the Arbites lady has an example of a religious prison on Hydraphur I think. A lot of the people in it have done relatively inconsequential things. What is probably more dangerous is getting on the wrong side of a Redemptionist Crusade through your part of the underhive Witches a plenty and at least one lynching per day guaranteed. Bring out your baseless rumours and accusations!

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hive Fleet Cerberus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
in the 41st Millennium there is no good, there is no evil, there are only perspectives. And war.

The Imperium actually though isn't really that bad at all save for bad Hive Worlds. As an organization, it isn't that bad so long as you aren't an underhiver. The IOM just sucks if you happen to be near HERESY or XENOS, or are an abhuman. Sure, you wouldn't choose to live there, but say, it's actually livable in how Soviet Russia was livable.

Liveable, yeah, but barely so. Miss church one day? Death for being a Heretic. Forget to pray to the Emperor? Life in prison (If those even exist). See a Webway gate? Death.

Give me one example where this actually happens in the BL. Hint, there probably won't be. People tend to really inflate the crapsack nature of the IOM, it's just the problem of people constantly repeating something until it's a meme. 1D4Chan is especially guilty of this.

40k was created to be incredibly dark, often to the point of comedy and had plenty of satirical elements. Sadly the tone have traveled from Judge Dredd camp all the way to Spartan 300 pretension. This isn't universal by any means or even bad in all cases. Really I don't think you can actually rate the crap sack level of the Imperium it does suck because it was designed by the game writers that way. It is overwhelmingly a war state under permanent siege. Even if you're not on the front lines often you're planet will be left at subsistence level as Terra strips you of resources and wealth.

Also there are many planets that are 'normal' but something like 90% of inhabited worlds (say sayeth the 3rd Edition rule book) have populations of thousands not millions while some particularly huge hive/forge planets have populations of trillions. I'd wager the overwhelming majority of Imperial citizens live hideous lives on these particular planets.

Even if the 90% are lovely, its like saying South-East Asia is at the cutting edge of global economics and living standards because Singapore exists (the comparison isn't 100% but you get the idea).

Mellow wrote:
The Tau killing those who don't submit to the Greater Good is no different from The Great Crusade where whole worlds were burnt if they didn't submit to the Imperial Truth.

Give it a few millennia and the Tau will be as grimdark at the IoM

The Tau have, as I understand it, allowed beaten enemies to survive under the Greater Good. They don't Exterminatus entire planets because a few leaders decide to resist them like the IoM does.

The Imperium don't Exterminatus planets for not complying.

Exterminatus is reserved for planets that can't be saved. It completely destroys the value of a world.

They launch ground campaigns to pacify worlds. Even if that does include killing every chaos-loving, disruptive monster on any given planet, they try to leave the planet itself in tact so they can retain use of its resources.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There are humans everywhere.

The Imperium only encompasses a fraction of what mankind settled when we left Earth.

Not even slightly true. The Emperor handed over the Great Crusade to Horus only once it was deemed virtually complete. The Crusade's objective was to reclaim the Old Earth settlements and it mostly succeeded. Only very isolated human worlds would have gone this long without discover by now. It does happen but it is rare, most of humanity lives in the Imperium's borders.

Personally I think the Interex were the best human faction, they could have allied with the Eldar and fought off Chaos if the Imperium had found allies in them, instead of crushing them in 30k, all because Horus just had to bring along Erebus with his grubby little mitts.

I'm actually curious if there could be like a renegade Imperial Guard that wasn't allied with Chaos, but declared itself independent. Like, would the Imperium be like "They dare to be independent?! Wipe them out!" and nuke them into oblivion, or be like "Meh we have better things to do"?

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm actually curious if there could be like a renegade Imperial Guard that wasn't allied with Chaos, but declared itself independent. Like, would the Imperium be like "They dare to be independent?! Wipe them out!" and nuke them into oblivion, or be like "Meh we have better things to do"?

They would be exterminated. Other humans are the Imperial Guard's most-common enemy, whether that's Traitors or simply recidivists. To declare yourself independent of the Imperium is to directly proclaim yourself against the God-Emperor of Mankind... and that cannot go unanswered.

No matter what your pissant little collection of worlds possesses, it does not have the manpower to stop an Imperial Crusade. The only reason the Tau Empire exists is because the Tyranid arrived and the Damocles Crusade was diverted to fight it. A break-off human system would fare far, far worse, as they do not even have a place to flee to, when the Tyranid (or the Necrons or the Dark Eldar, or the Sluagth, or the Enslavers...) arrive.

That kinda sucks, I mean it makes perfect sense, but still. I was tempted to look at the new "Astra Militarum" as a way to do a renegade Imperial army (and even that mostly to justify fighting IG and Marines), but the lore doesn't support that outside of them being part of Chaos, or I guess they could be Gue'vesa with the Tau, but not a total independent faction.

I almost wish they'd do something with the lore to allow for Marine vs. Marine and IG vs. Marine and IG vs. IG and the like without it being a stupid "You're the traitor! No you! Nuh uh! Yeah huh" kind of thing to explain it from a lore perspective.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm actually curious if there could be like a renegade Imperial Guard that wasn't allied with Chaos, but declared itself independent. Like, would the Imperium be like "They dare to be independent?! Wipe them out!" and nuke them into oblivion, or be like "Meh we have better things to do"?

Secessionists die in ignominy.

WaynrTheGame wrote:That kinda sucks, I mean it makes perfect sense, but still. I was tempted to look at the new "Astra Militarum" as a way to do a renegade Imperial army (and even that mostly to justify fighting IG and Marines), but the lore doesn't support that outside of them being part of Chaos, or I guess they could be Gue'vesa with the Tau, but not a total independent faction.

Oh, no, your army concept is completely viable - just as long as you understand that they are going to be crushed beneath the Imperium's heel. You can probably get ten or fifteen decades of life out of Administratum filing errors.

I am pretty sure I read an Ork codex many many many moons ago (was the one with a full two pages of Madboyz rules and different cybork upgrades) that had rules for human slaves and workers in it.

One of the reasons most secessionists turn to Chaos is because that's really the only hope they have to "win" against the Imperium. If anything, the Imperium is even more serious about destroying traitor humans or assimilating non-Imperium humans than it is about nearly anything else besides MAYBE Chaos (but again, Chaos and secessionists tend to end up being one and the same after a while anyways)

That's why all Imperium forces get "Preferred Enemy" against Tau gue'vessa. They're just THAT serious about smashing human traitor scum (and unlike Chaos humans, these ones can't even claim to have been tricked or possessed by Chaos)

That said, a secessionist planet/system can survive for a (very limited) time without Chaos/Xenos rulers. Technically Huron's rebellion was a secessionist empire for a while that might not have been Chaos aligned (it's unknown exactly when Huron first turned to Chaos)

Another secessionist empire that's still going is the Severan Dominate, the main antagonist of FFG's "Only War" RPG series. If anything, the Dominate does a very VERY good job of showing all the PROBLEMS seceding from the Imperium has (while still being a large threat and antagonist). It's a wonder their leader hasn't died from one of the many mental breakdowns he's likely had by now. Although his empire is still alive right now, I'm under the impression it won't last forever even if the Imperium loses the current war.

A secessionist empire could exist in several ways. If it defeats the initial Imperial counterattack, the next response might not be for generations (or ever) due to how stretched the Imperium is for resources and the possibility of the Administratum forgetting about things. If they can lose track of entire systems and sectors simply due to paperwork errors, they can certainly do so again. Also there may be deliberate attempts to scrub the records if any secessionist empire should succeed in defeating the Imperial attack. The entire area might be re-classified as wilderness space, and past records altered to show it was always wilderness space. The Imperium wouldn't let the idea of successful secession spread, hence the sanitizing of records, but that doesn't mean there haven't been successful ones in the past. Remember also the Imperium has blockades around certain areas of space, some for dangerous alien races. Why not for a successful rebellion? Records get altered to show there was never an Imperial presence, and then a blockade put around the area until there are resources for another attempt at retaking the area, and to block the spread of any people spreading information about successful secession (or contradicting the now altered official records).

Some of Macharius's furthest conquests rebelled after his death and were never retaken so it is possible to throw off the Imperium and survive. Also as many have said, the Imerpium is not a continuous state. There are numerous pocket empires within it of aliens and humans that have never been reconquered (or perhaps they were successful rebels now retconned in Imperial records).

Would depend on how valuable the system(s) are/were. A chain of relatively unimportant worlds, sure. A Forge World? No. They still launch crusades into the Eye and other places in the attempt to re-take Forge Worlds.

The Imperium has lost whole sectors before for centuries. The whole Deathwatch RPG setting is set in the reconquest attempt of an area of space that used to be an Imperial sector that was lost and re-designated as wilderness space. Even this was only possible because of the discovery of that stargate structure that allowed for easy invasion into the sector for the Imperium. Otherwise the area would have remained lost, and any worlds within it would have been free to do whatever they wanted (or die or fall apart however they wanted). If hypothetically the reconquest attempt of this Jericho Sector were to somehow fail catastrophically, I would imagine the Imperium would remove any records indicating an attempt took place at all in order to preserve the myth of Imperial military invincibility and inevitability.

The fact that they have (and continue to do so) devoted millions upon millions of soldiers to retaking the Jericho Sector indicates what any breakaway province should expect.

 Psienesis wrote:
The fact that they have (and continue to do so) devoted millions upon millions of soldiers to retaking the Jericho Sector indicates what any breakaway province should expect.

The only reason they do so is because of the stargate and the remaining Deathwatch outposts. If that stargate were not there, the Imperium would not have undertaken the effort to assault the sector more conventionally using fleets making warp jumps from other sectors. The attempt to reconquer the Jericho Sector was purely opportunistic because of the stargate discovery. Until that, the Jericho Sector had effectively slipped from Imperial rule permanently, and had done so for generations, and there were no real Imperial plans to alter that situation until the stargate was discovered.

Now in the Only War RPG, if the Severan Dominate were to successfully defeat both the Orks and the Imperium, I would imagine it would also be written off by the Imperium until some indeterminate (possibly never) time in the future.

In the time between the Jericho Sector being lost and the "now" of Deathwatch, the Imperium had other concerns. Now, though, they can maintain the pretense of wars elsewhere (hence the drafting forces from the Ixaniad and Calixis Sectors to fight in this warzone over here).

It's also a way to justify having things from the western Imperium here on the far-eastern butt-end of the Imperium. The stargate is a plot device, basically. The game would, with minor tweaking, work just as well without it, but the Rule of Cool (in a narrative sense) wins the day here.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I'm actually curious if there could be like a renegade Imperial Guard that wasn't allied with Chaos, but declared itself independent. Like, would the Imperium be like "They dare to be independent?! Wipe them out!" and nuke them into oblivion, or be like "Meh we have better things to do"?

As with everything in 40k, it depends. The former literally happened in the background of the Death Korps of Krieg: the government of Krieg seceded from the Imperium which led to a (nuclear) civil war between government-loyal Kriegers and Imperium-loyal Kriegers.

On the other hand, the latter is entirely possible under the right circumstances. Just imagine a huge hive world. You could have an army of millions fighting for independence from the Imperium. It's just that the Independent People's Democratic Republic they're fighting to establish comprises about 0.0000000000000001% of the planet's population, and even if the territory was the size of what we'd call a decent country would be a spit in the ocean for such a hive world. The planetary governors might not even notice that little bit gone rogue, never mind the Administratum.

 Hive Fleet Cerberus wrote:
Do any non-imperium humans exist?

Yes, there's bazillions of non-imperial humans. There's tens of thousands of planets colonized by humans who have never heard of the Imperium but Terra usually still a distant legend.
The Imperium has fleets flying around the galaxy full time trying to find these worlds....and y'know conquer them.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There are humans everywhere.

The Imperium only encompasses a fraction of what mankind settled when we left Earth.

Not even slightly true. The Emperor handed over the Great Crusade to Horus only once it was deemed virtually complete. The Crusade's objective was to reclaim the Old Earth settlements and it mostly succeeded. Only very isolated human worlds would have gone this long without discover by now. It does happen but it is rare, most of humanity lives in the Imperium's borders.

Personally I think the Interex were the best human faction, they could have allied with the Eldar and fought off Chaos if the Imperium had found allies in them, instead of crushing them in 30k, all because Horus just had to bring along Erebus with his grubby little mitts.

1) They still didn't have nearly all the Planets that were settled. Just the ones they could find, its not like there was a database on Earth of all the planets that got settled. They were literally heading off into unknown space with any knowledge they did have being thousands of years out of date. The Emperor left because enough had been accomplished to move on to the next stage, the missed areas could be mopped up later.

2) The Imperium's borders today are way smaller than they were at the end of the Crusade. The Heresy ravaged the Imperium and thousands of planets were lost.