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nkelsch wrote:
I don't have an issue with delays or long fullfillment.

I do have an issue when Sodapop has been promoting TFK for a solid 6 months as a general release which was expected to be released in march, and now for 'whatever' reasons it has backslid into a KS for no reason which makes sense to me...

I don't see what they need KS funds for when it is basically complete. Seems like a step backwards to go from commercial retail releases to KS simply because you can. Bothers me as a customer and makes me more intolerant that I have to wait potentially 6 months+delay for a product I was expecting to be out Q1 2014.

I'm guessing that with the all but divorce from CMON that they don't have the cash on hand to produce it by themselves. Typically, that is the part that a publisher handles (paying for stuff) in return for their share of the profits. I'm curious to see if ND will split from Palladium as well and if Palladium will get someone else to do future eras of that product line.

I really want this, but I'm unsure why it's a kickstarter. Also the Relic Knights issue hangs overhead.

Given that the poll on the SPM forum about "Would you be interested in a co-op mode for SDE" was only put up in January, it does seem as though the decision to turn FK into a full 'version 2' release of SDE was quite recent.

So long as they run the KS like Kaos Ball or Arcadia where there are only 2 or 3 pledge levels with very little in the way of add-ons or KS exclusives there is no reason why this upgrade to a standalone game should affect the 'original' FK release target by more than a few months.

To be honest, as much as I (and my kids) have been looking forward to a new expansion, I would personally prefer to get new content AND new mechanics in a few months time in the knowledge that the game is then a viable alternative to Myth or Zombicide.. than get new content in a month or so but have to wait a year before SPM scrapes together the funds and content to justify a stand alone release of 2.0. By then a lot of their players would likely have moved on to Myth..

I'm totes in. It'll be interesting to see what they add in terms of stretch goals and whatnot though. Since the miniatures for Forgotten King seem to have been done for quite a while. (I imagine it will be a wave 1/wave 2 sort of deal).

Also really excited to see the co-op/solo play mode. I might be able to use all these SDE minis I've painted!

 Siygess wrote:
By then a lot of their players would likely have moved on to Myth..

They missed an assumed retail launch and are late to their own party. I suspect Myth is going to suck up a lot of interest from gamers which could have been combated with a retail SDE release.

If AQ straight up beats them to market (which it does appear like they could) that could be a deathblow as SDE would be late to the co-op dungeon market with potentially two quality products already there.

I will still collect the figures tho.

Yeah that's exactly it. Since SDE launched, we've seen Zombicide and now Myth prove that there is a very healthy demand for co-op games.. and that said games can work well without the need for the consul role. Maybe they thought that's what people wanted back when they were designing SDE or maybe they just didn't see how it would work.

But it does work, so their choice is to change now and have a shot at competing with these other games.. or miss the boat entirely. Evolve or die!

But it seems like they should have released their 'already going to retail' expansion as normal to keep people active in the market place with their brand, and then launched the KS to fund the 'new rule-set' and the 2015 model release.

A KS for models we have been seeing since last summer with "Due out Q1 2014" now being KSed for a later release? That is a fail.

Delaying TFK 6 months leaves them 18 months without a expansion release. Heroes and King Starfire don't count.

If the simple truth is 'they have no money' so they can't release their already going to retail product, that is telling.

Sure, but TFK dropping "on time" would do.. what.. at this point? It would give current SDE players something new to play with for a couple of months, but by then you would be looking at increased retail availability of Myth and knowing CMoN, rumors of an imminent Zombicide season 3.

So, sure, they could launch a brand new KS right now without using the TFK content but what would the development time on that be since they would need new models, new tiles and of course the new rules? A year? 18 months? That's too late. So what they are doing right now is probably the right move for the survival of SDE but a more aggressive release schedule in 2013 might have meant that SDE didn't need saving in the first place. Hey Ho. :/

Quite intriguing I must say.

I won't be backing this due to how they handled the relic knights KS. It's going to take SPM a while (and my RK stuff) to earn my trust again and for me to back another one of ther KS.

 Siygess wrote:
Sure, but TFK dropping "on time" would do.. what.. at this point? It would give current SDE players something new to play with for a couple of months, but by then you would be looking at increased retail availability of Myth and knowing CMoN, rumors of an imminent Zombicide season 3.

So, sure, they could launch a brand new KS right now without using the TFK content but what would the development time on that be since they would need new models, new tiles and of course the new rules? A year? 18 months? That's too late. So what they are doing right now is probably the right move for the survival of SDE but a more aggressive release schedule in 2013 might have meant that SDE didn't need saving in the first place. Hey Ho. :/

The bigger problem here is they are setting themselves 6 months back, when this was supposed to be released next month. They also need a campaign system. And if they are going to only have 1 pledge level, like AQ, then you need a lot of stretch goals, or I might as well wait for the game to hit retail if they want me to pay full retail value already. People on AQ pledge knowing that the game is going to garner a lot of add-ons from CMON to make that value worth it. We have no such expectation here, and SPM/ND's track record is subpar right now.

It does make you wonder if they lost money (contractually) for late delivery of the figures for both RK and RRT.

It could well be, and I'm sure they are in quite a pickle when it comes to paying for a big production run of the minis we have already seen. What SPM should have done, I guess, was release Von Drak with four tiles (Creepy Forest x4, Crypt x2, Von Drak Mansion x2) and release TPK back in November last year without tiles. But shoulda, woulda, coulda.

Also if CMoN aren't involved in the KS that pretty much guarantees that it won't be the juicy stretch goal / freebie spectacle that we all enjoy so much. So the discount vs retail is going to have to be pretty good.. or they are going to have to come to KS with a low funding target of $15k-$20k and a turn around time of three to four months, max. I like to think that the latter is quite possible since they (in theory) only need to produce the new rule book and perhaps design a few new counters to upgrade TFK to a standalone game.

If this KS is going to float, it is going to have to be pitched perfectly AND be delivered on time.

Damn, CMoN really seems to be going for the jugular with Sodapop. Not-Voldemort and Not-LabrynthDavidBowie were awesome, but a 'bunny-monster' guy? And it is cool.

If the SDE KS seems 'rushed to market' I can see why. AQ seems to be scratching an un-scratched itch which Sodapop left unscratched. If TFK had hit retail last week like they were planning for 6 months, Sodapop could have cash in-hand which is now being spent on AQ.

Oh yeah. The David Bowie character makes me super excited.

nkelsch wrote:


If the SDE KS seems 'rushed to market' I can see why. AQ seems to be scratching an un-scratched itch which Sodapop left unscratched. If TFK had hit retail last week like they were planning for 6 months, Sodapop could have cash in-hand which is now being spent on AQ.

Don't you think there might be a connection between CMON walking away with the money to produce a suspiciously similar game and SDE being unable to do a planned retail release and now needing to Kickstart the latest expansion?

And you make it sound like SDE has been lax - they've had two expansions and a good number of extras (Nyan Nyan and Captain R and the like) released in the last two years. I can't keep up with them as is. My itch is more than scratched.

I wonder if Soda Pop would just do a no-frills, straight box KS campaign. Would people bite?

That would help keep costs, turnaround, and expectations in check.

Then again, how many people would just end up waiting for retail?

I'd imagine even with a bare bone campaign they'd still get it funded with no problems.

I want to fund, but I have to admit that my faith in them is shaken. Makes me sad :-(.

I had really hoped they'd wait to do this until after they'd fulfilled one of their KS campaigns.

Especially Relic Knights!

I wouldn't back this, due to SPM's current track record - but I'd buy it at retail.

I've never played Super Dungeon Explorer but I have always wanted to, but haven't been able to because I've never even seen a box for sale outside eBay.

One Question though:

Do I need the original SDE game to play this? Or is it a stand-alone game?

 masterdoobie wrote:
I've never played Super Dungeon Explorer but I have always wanted to, but haven't been able to because I've never even seen a box for sale outside eBay.

One Question though:

Do I need the original SDE game to play this? Or is it a stand-alone game?

i believe its listed earlier in the thread as being stand alone, but able to mesh with the older stuff
as for me, i'll consider pledging if i have my relic knight stuff, otherwise, yea, waiting til retail

 masterdoobie wrote:
I've never played Super Dungeon Explorer but I have always wanted to, but haven't been able to because I've never even seen a box for sale outside eBay.

One Question though:

Do I need the original SDE game to play this? Or is it a stand-alone game?

Here you go, mate. Cheaper than most other local retailers, and very reasonable shipping. Good service, and fast.
http://www.gamesempire.com.au/index.php?searchStr=super+dungeon+explore&_a=viewCat&Submit=Go

I think the big pull will be whether exclusives are offered or not.

I'm sure a lot of people are interested in the expansion, but there's a lot of people out there waiting on previous KS materials.

I'm afraid exclusives will be the ultimate equalizer.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I think the big pull will be whether exclusives are offered or not.

I'm sure a lot of people are interested in the expansion, but there's a lot of people out there waiting on previous KS materials.

I'm afraid exclusives will be the ultimate equalizer.

I'm hoping they'll at least be a new plastic version of Candy & Cola. But I expect they'll be at least a handful of exclusives. Maybe some gender-swaps of existing heroes, that'd be nice. Perhaps another chance for people to get their hands on the Relic Knight SDE minis.

I think that CMON kinda forced Soda Pop's hand with Arcadia Quest. If they hadn't announced it now, there's a good chance many of us wouldn't go in on The Forgotten King ks when it launches if we'd already dropped $100 on Arcadia Quest especially as they look to have more in common than just vanilla SDE.

The biggest holdup right now is, as we're all pretty clear on, the progress (or seeming lack thereof) of outstanding KS projects involving SPM. I don't consider Relic Knights a bust, just severely delayed. 10 months now. If anyone has any insights as to why that is exactly, I'd like to know. My understanding is that it all boils down to miscommunication and misunderstanding between CMON and SPM, though I've also read -- in this thread, even -- that models weren't delivered in a timely manner and, of course, some factory issues sprinkled here and there. Though the light at the end of that tunnel keeps drawing nearer.

With regards to the Forgotten King project, I'd like to see some nice incentives by way of extras (not just paid addons) since it's fair to say we're being asked to put more faith and money behind SPM in particular with them flying solo this time. That's not to say I want them to overpromise or woo financial ruin, but recognizing the situation surrounding this project and demonstrating good will toward a community that loves their product and continues to show support would be very welcome and help assuage misgivings. However, without CMON I'm not sure how likely that is. It could be that SPM have reaped a windfall from their goings on and are poised to blow this thing out of the water; or they could be stretched a bit thin in which case a discount and first dibs on the Forgotten King are the most likely perks for financing the endeavor.

The already-assembled models look great. I'm inclined to give this ks a shot just to see how SPM do; they've got more experience now, maybe learned some lessons that'll translate to better project management, but I'm not so sure it'll be a smooth ride.

Yeah if we were putting money on it, I'd say the pledge levels would be something like:

o) 100x TFK Early Birds ($15 off the retail price, earlier than retail delivery)
o) TFK ($10 off the retail price, earlier than retail delivery)
o) Everything (SDE, TFK, all main expansions)

I figure maybe one (free) KS exclusive miniature.

All the existing expansions and limited characters (excluding the RK ones) available as paid add-ons.

Stretch goals will fund 'new' hero and mini boss characters which will be delivered in a second wave, and available at retail at a later date. I suspect once they hit retail, they will be produced in larger numbers and won't be as 'limited' as Candy & Cola etc.

Shipping will be horrible for people outside the US.

That's my prediction.

 Dentry wrote:

The biggest holdup right now is, as we're all pretty clear on, the progress (or seeming lack thereof) of outstanding KS projects involving SPM. I don't consider Relic Knights a bust, just severely delayed. 10 months now. If anyone has any insights as to why that is exactly, I'd like to know. My understanding is that it all boils down to miscommunication and misunderstanding between CMON and SPM, though I've also read -- in this thread, even -- that models weren't delivered in a timely manner and, of course, some factory issues sprinkled here and there. Though the light at the end of that tunnel keeps drawing nearer.

10 months late is pretty busted, especially when a primary reason for the delay was failure to submit designs on time to the production company causing a 3-4 month delay.... There's a lot more to it than that, too, but that's not for an online forum.

nkelsch and cincy, so I take it you guys are really pro-CMON in this instance and anti-SPM? Your posts in both the Arcadia and this thread seem to indicate so.

I'm much more interested in a SPM Super Dungeon Explore than a CMON knockoff... but that doesn't mean I'm going to kickstart it given SPM's recent issues as others have already covered.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I wonder if Soda Pop would just do a no-frills, straight box KS campaign. Would people bite?

That would help keep costs, turnaround, and expectations in check.

Then again, how many people would just end up waiting for retail?

I'd imagine even with a bare bone campaign they'd still get it funded with no problems.

Well, here's the problem with paying retail for a straight up KS, with no freebies. Why pay that? There is no upside for me, the "investor". I'm giving them the cost of the game AND the profit from it. Someone else listed the possiblity of them knocking $10 off the retail price for the KS, with only a KS exclusive figure. Again, NO.

CMON, and several other big KS companies, usually price their pledges around the retail price, but you end up getting 300% more at that price. I fear that we won't see that from SPM/ND. If all you're going to end up with is the base game and a limited figure that you know SPM will sell later on, then I'll wait for retail discounts and sales.

SPM/ND have an incredibly poor track record right now, and split shipping from them seems a crapshoot. I'll watch this one, really see what the value is, but they have pretty large reservations to overcome...

DISCLAIMER: Unverified convention interaction follows: Plus, a poster here said that a member of ND got cranky when he asked when the Robotech mini's would see the light of day. If true, that severely lowers my esteem of the company.

 RiTides wrote:
nkelsch and cincy, so I take it you guys are really pro-CMON in this instance and anti-SPM? Your posts in both the Arcadia and this thread seem to indicate so.

I'm much more interested in a SPM Super Dungeon Explore than a CMON knockoff... but that doesn't mean I'm going to kickstart it given SPM's recent issues as others have already covered.

Thats a weird question for me, because I have a vested interest (in actual friendships) in both.

I TRUST CMoN as a business more than I TRUST SPM as a business, and for various reasons, many of which I think people here probably share.

I WANT to be able to KS Forgotten King. I really do. Its going to depend, a LOT, on the transparency of their process. I need to know that something is going to get delayed out of neglect or mismanagement, rather than legitimate production problems (flaws in a design that they discover from mass production, etc).

I like SDE. I like the minis for SDE. I own everything currently existing for SDE. I like the guys involved in SPM. I also think there's room for both SDE and Arcadia. I'm not Anti-SPM at all. But right now, it's a matter of faith and trust.