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 ChazSexington wrote:
Ironically, it seems the two supplements that came out are for among the least-played legions...

Black Legion is actually a pretty popular color scheme from what I know of, the problem is the Black Legion Supplement is horrible.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Ironically, it seems the two supplements that came out are for among the least-played legions...

Black Legion is actually a pretty popular color scheme from what I know of, the problem is the Black Legion Supplement is horrible.

But from this poll (and an other one I've seen) Black Legion are not statistically speaking the most popular. It seems to be Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion.

I love thousand sons. But my warband is chaos undivided with a splash of each legion

 Nevie wrote:
I love thousand sons. But my warband is chaos undivided with a splash of each legion

Sounds like fun to paint! I'm slightly bothered by the retconning of Chaos Undivided :(

A lot of people love a Legion but play another (or a random warband), because you cannot play most of the Legions with the current rules. Or you can play but you have no chances of making it to turn 5.

I think many people here is answering which Legion they would love to play.

Thousand Sons or Alpha Legion are good examples of this.

nice to see/prove that the most popular legions are not covered by the book.

I turned from a mainly Khorne army to BL when the 4th ed book was on the go, mainly because they took away the focus. But kept individual paint schemes for the legions.

Now I'm left with a mash of everything and not sure where to go with it. Since the book itself is kinda gak and flavourless.

That and I'm getting owned all the time by just about everyone while I try and figure out something new that can actually get into assault. I really need to build my anvilus dreadclaw (And hope it gets to DS like the imperial ones). Then my NLs may actually be fieldable.

I own plenty of Night Lord MODELS but my most completed Army is a pure Death Guard list.

Morty and Haunty BFFs 4 everr.

I roll with the Thousand Sons. I have done since 2nd Edition. I just loved the way their models looked; I knew nothing about their history or anything, I went with them simply because of asthetic reasons. I have no regrets!

I also run Emperor's Children, but I didn't put them on the list, since they aren't a full army yet (they rely on Traitor Guard allies to fill out enough points to field them).

it's probably worth pointing out that while I run a Night Lords army, I play pretty fast and loose with the fluff when it comes to making an army list. I will use marks and sorcerers and probably demon allies eventually, even though NL fluff generally indicates that they don't curry favor with any of the chaos gods and despise sorcery.

doing a truly fluffy NL army with the current codex would be pretty tough, I think, which is a damn shame.

Renegades with a smattering of Prodigal Sons (e.g. Ahriman), cause I love the idea of Ahriman being a traitor not just to the Imperium, but also to his former Legion with his own Primarch hating his guts.

I also have a unit of Sanctified. Given that World Eaters basically no longer exist in 40K; I find Word Bearers a more fitting background for Khorne Berzerkers. Also, love the colour scheme.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Renegades with a smattering of Prodigal Sons (e.g. Ahriman), cause I love the idea of Ahriman being a traitor not just to the Imperium, but also to his former Legion with his own Primarch hating his guts.

I also have a unit of Sanctified. Given that World Eaters basically no longer exist in 40K; I find Word Bearers a more fitting background for Khorne Berzerkers. Also, love the colour scheme.

Love that you play a small canon warband! I'm hoping of having a small Alpha Legion with a much larger Imperial Guard allied force to make it fluffier (and somewhat more competitive).

I'm rather surprised that Night Lords is so high on the polls!

 Sasori wrote:
I'm rather surprised that Night Lords is so high on the polls!

I kinda wanted to play Night Lords, but picked Alpha Legion. It was partially due to my painting skills not being good enough to truly do them justice!

 Zweischneid wrote:
(..)
I also have a unit of Sanctified. Given that World Eaters basically no longer exist in 40K; I find Word Bearers a more fitting background for Khorne Berzerkers. Also, love the colour scheme.

Really? The Dominion of Fire saw 50000 Khorne Marines under command of Angron.

And in the link you gave you can read that the Sanctified are associated with the World Eaters.

And, according to the Codex: Eye of Terror: "During the 13th Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler World Eater warbands would appear in mass to fight alongside the Warmaster. Most notable of these was the army of Kossolax the Foresworn. (...) By 999.M41 the largest army of World Eaters in living memory had assembled."

Seriously, I know Kelly said in an interview that he wanted the Legions out of the setting. But he is alone in that, just like he is alone in Chaos Undivided no longer existing. At this point we have a single author claiming that this and that is no longer there but the rest of the Studio keep writing about the Legions.

My warband is derived from the Scourged.

Seriously, I know Kelly said in an interview that he wanted the Legions out of the setting. But he is alone in that, just like he is alone in Chaos Undivided no longer existing. At this point we have a single author claiming that this and that is no longer there but the rest of the Studio keep writing about the Legions.

Just like everyone ignored Matt Ward's "Everyone wants to be an Ultramarine" they just now need to ignore Kelly's retcons.

Night Lords
Ave Dominus Nox!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Seriously, I know Kelly said in an interview that he wanted the Legions out of the setting. But he is alone in that, just like he is alone in Chaos Undivided no longer existing. At this point we have a single author claiming that this and that is no longer there but the rest of the Studio keep writing about the Legions.

Just like everyone ignored Matt Ward's "Everyone wants to be an Ultramarine" they just now need to ignore Kelly's retcons.

Exactly.

From the recent Codex: Crimson Slaughter:

I play Children of Torment, the Slaaneshi faction of the Black Legion. I've got both Terminators (and the Chaos Terminator Lord is a former Bringer of Despair) and plenty Noise Marines as troops.

Does anyone know the reason behind Kelly's retcons?

 ChazSexington wrote:
Does anyone know the reason behind Kelly's retcons?

Personal bias likely enough.

 da001 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
(..)
I also have a unit of Sanctified. Given that World Eaters basically no longer exist in 40K; I find Word Bearers a more fitting background for Khorne Berzerkers. Also, love the colour scheme.

Really? The Dominion of Fire saw 50000 Khorne Marines under command of Angron.

And in the link you gave you can read that the Sanctified are associated with the World Eaters.

And, according to the Codex: Eye of Terror: "During the 13th Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler World Eater warbands would appear in mass to fight alongside the Warmaster. Most notable of these was the army of Kossolax the Foresworn. (...) By 999.M41 the largest army of World Eaters in living memory had assembled."

Seriously, I know Kelly said in an interview that he wanted the Legions out of the setting. But he is alone in that, just like he is alone in Chaos Undivided no longer existing. At this point we have a single author claiming that this and that is no longer there but the rest of the Studio keep writing about the Legions.

It also says, that After Skalathrax "The World Eaters were, ever since, broken as a Legion, fragmented into countless, marauding warbands. " and that the "World Eaters" (e.g. mostly the Sanctified) and the 13th Black Crusade were led by Zhufor, a Renegade Storm Lord (White Scars Geneseed).

Also, "Abaddon the Despoiler and his Black Legion in particular utilize large numbers of Berzerkers. Going a step further, Abaddon has recruited a number of highly-skilled Berzerker-surgeons to his cause, allowing the Black Legion to produce new Berzerkers in numbers beyond even that of the World Eaters." (in turn mostly Berzerkers of White Scars, Word Bearers and other stock in 40k).

So both the Black Legion Berzerkers themselves and the "new-school" World Eaters made from Storm Lords, other Renegades and (ex-)Word Bearers, seem to outnumber actual "Angron-Geneseed-World-Eaters" in 40K as far as "Khorne Berzerkers" go.

But I guess you can just pick whatever version you prefer. 40K-fluff luckily is malleable like that. It's its greatest virtue. Also, there is always "the Warp" if you need an explanation for something.

Yep, I am totally going with the "pick your own fluff" option here.

I just wanted to provide some quotes where the World Eaters are mentioned as being a force to be feared: "By 999.M41 the largest army of World Eaters in living memory had assembled" is pretty clear, and the quote from Codex: Crimson Slaughter is from 2014, so it is not "old fluff". There is no consensus among GW´s writers regarding the Chaos Legions... but most of them still write about them as if they exist.

I think we may have a semantic problem here: an army of 50000 marines following Angron (&Khorne) are a "World Eaters" army for me, even if there are few of them with the proper gene-seed. World Eaters apothecaries (the original berserker-surgeons, highly skilled at the use of the Grabiya´s Theorem to accelerate the process of creating a berserker) were known to make use of every gene-seed they get, regardless of origin. And I don´t think Angron (let alone Khorne) cares about "genetic purity". And the same goes for being led by an ex-WS. Who cares? If a Khorne follower prove his worth, that´s enough.

Perhaps the best counter-example is the one given by ZebioLizard2: do Wolves and Templars secretly dream of being mighty Ultramarines? There is fluff that is just better to ignore.


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 ChazSexington wrote:
Does anyone know the reason behind Kelly's retcons?

I am going to step forward and say: lazyness.

He is not a Chaos player and it is obviously not his thing. About 95% of both Chaos Codices is a copy-paste of the last one, with some random, senseless stuff added or taken out with no clear reason. It is a half-hearted attempt, quite clear if you compare them with other jobs from the same author.

Giving rules for the Legions is complicated, yet everyone was asking for them. So he retconed it out and claimed that the Legions no longer exist. Bang, problem solved.

About Chaos Undivided, I think it has something to do with the current policy on models. Since Chaos Undivided is "make up your own Daemon/god/chapter", there are no models for them. So out with them. Sure, there are many important characters who all of a sudden must pick one of four gods, and it completely contradicts everything written before but... how many players care about that? Do someone still read the fluff?

It speaks volumes about the lack of communication between GW and their customers.

Started with plague marines so Death Guard hold a special place for me amongst the cult marines. After them, Word Bearers; I have come to like them for being the start of it all, they are the most evil of them all IMHO.

Perhaps.

But to me, the thing that makes Chaos Space Marines interesting, is that they provide the setting's antonym of uniformity and military cohesion to the loyal Space Marine chapters.

The Chaos Space Marines embraced the idea of following the biggest, meanest, "alpha" around. Sure, a Demon-Primarch like Angron is a pretty big deal, so he'd likely collect a big following. The loyalty of his followers wouldn't last 5 seconds however, if something bigger, badder came along to claim dominance of the warband. Just like any Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince.

Pretty much goes for the rest of them too. Abaddon is on record saying he thinks Horus was an idiot. Ahriman would get shot on sight by any self-respecting Thousand Sons Marine (and his Primarch).

These guys are renegades. Just because their personal history links back to the Horus Heresy-era, doesn't mean they still owe or respect the military allegiances of those "Imperium-made" military-organisation formerly know as "Legions". They don't. They all pursue their personal schemes, plans and motives, and those that follow them follow the rule of the strongest/insanest.

If Khorne et al. don't care about the gene-seed, why should they care about anything else (tactics, culture of recruits, insignia, hierarchies, etc,,, , ????) that would reasonably define a distinguishable military organization known or recognizable as "Legion" in distinction from any random Chaos Warband, large or small?

 Zweischneid wrote:
Perhaps.

But to me, the thing that makes Chaos Space Marines interesting, is that they provide the setting's antonym of uniformity and military cohesion to the loyal Space Marine chapters.

Chaos in its purest form is undesirable, unfathomable and probably boring. By allowing all options you end with a no-option list. This is part of the paradox concerning Chaos: when players ask for Chaos Legions, they are asking for restrictions, as a way to give an army a theme. "A random bunch of renegades" is not interesting.

The Chaos Space Marines embraced the idea of following the biggest, meanest, "alpha" around. Sure, a Demon-Primarch like Angron is a pretty big deal, so he'd likely collect a big following. The loyalty of his followers wouldn't last 5 seconds however, if something bigger, badder came along to claim dominance of the warband. Just like any Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince.

Pretty much goes for the rest of them too. Abaddon is on record saying he thinks Horus was an idiot. Ahriman would get shot on sight by any self-respecting Thousand Sons Marine (and his Primarch).

These guys are renegades. Just because their personal history links back to the Horus Heresy-era, doesn't mean they still owe or respect the military allegiances of those "Imperium-made" military-organisation formerly know as "Legions". They don't. They all pursue their personal schemes, plans and motives, and those that follow them follow the rule of the strongest/insanest.

That´s a gross simplification. A Slaanesh warlord will never take orders from a Khorne warlord, no matter the reason. They hate each other. Chaos is its own worst enemy. What you are saying applies to newly fallen renegades, and it also applies to how a given Legion works. But with one exception (the Black Legion, created by Abaddon with little in common with the Sons of Horus), each Legion is a faction in itself, with no relation with the rest.

And the mark system offers a religion-made system of allegiances that goes beyond the former "Legion" concept.

If Khorne et al. don't care about the gene-seed, why should they care about anything else (tactics, culture of recruits, insignia, hierarchies, etc,,, , ????) that would reasonably define a distinguishable military organization known or recognizable as "Legion" in distinction from any random Chaos Warband, large or small?

Khornate armies are supposed to care a lot about things related with war, and the culture of recruits was established long time ago as a way to recover from heavy loses. But they don´t care about the past of a warrior, or his origin. Just what this given warrior can do in battle. This is the reason a "World Eaters" army will include many marines that do not share a genetic link with Angron.

On the other side, Iron Warriors care a lot about the origin of a soldier. They use other legions´ gene-seed but the resulting marines are openly despised and called bastards and half-breeds.

The same goes for Night Lords and Word Bearers. Nobody knows about the Alpha, and the Black Legion cares not about your origin.

The "marked" legions are more about the mark. All of them recruit from other sources.

As you can see, each Legion has its own traits. They are completely different from one another, which is the reason people want Legion rules. The is no Codex Astartes to unify the Chaos Legions. And no common cultural background (the Imperium). A marine born in Medrengard 7000 years ago has nothing to do with a marine born in the Planet of Sorcerers.

The Chaos Space Marines embraced the idea of following the biggest, meanest, "alpha" around. Sure, a Demon-Primarch like Angron is a pretty big deal, so he'd likely collect a big following. The loyalty of his followers wouldn't last 5 seconds however, if something bigger, badder came along to claim dominance of the warband. Just like any Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince.

He collected 50,000 Khorne Bezerkers. Where's his Slaaneshi Warriors then?

His Nurgle?

How about some Sorcerers, he must want himself some Sorcerers for his War.

No? Only Khornate Berzerkers and World Eaters?

Every Single Last One of them was for Khorne, not some mish-mash hippie renegade group who believes in including everyone. I highly doubt that any Emperors Children or Slaanesh troops would follow him.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The Chaos Space Marines embraced the idea of following the biggest, meanest, "alpha" around. Sure, a Demon-Primarch like Angron is a pretty big deal, so he'd likely collect a big following. The loyalty of his followers wouldn't last 5 seconds however, if something bigger, badder came along to claim dominance of the warband. Just like any Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince.

He collected 50,000 Khorne Bezerkers. Where's his Slaaneshi Warriors then?

His Nurgle?

How about some Sorcerers, he must want himself some Sorcerers for his War.

No? Only Khornate Berzerkers and World Eaters?

Every Single Last One of them was for Khorne, not some mish-mash hippie renegade group who believes in including everyone. I highly doubt that any Emperors Children or Slaanesh troops would follow him.

Because occasionally there are horrible brain-farts like the Dominion-of-Fire-stuff in the 40K-fluff. Just use your brain, ignore it and move on.

Luckly, I think they got rid off all the atrocious 3rd and 4th Edition Codex writers with the (sigh) exception of Phil Kelly, and 40K fluff improved greatly since.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The Chaos Space Marines embraced the idea of following the biggest, meanest, "alpha" around. Sure, a Demon-Primarch like Angron is a pretty big deal, so he'd likely collect a big following. The loyalty of his followers wouldn't last 5 seconds however, if something bigger, badder came along to claim dominance of the warband. Just like any Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince.

He collected 50,000 Khorne Bezerkers. Where's his Slaaneshi Warriors then?

His Nurgle?

How about some Sorcerers, he must want himself some Sorcerers for his War.

No? Only Khornate Berzerkers and World Eaters?

Every Single Last One of them was for Khorne, not some mish-mash hippie renegade group who believes in including everyone. I highly doubt that any Emperors Children or Slaanesh troops would follow him.

In some cases, yes it has advanced.

In this case, they are pushing fluff that's outright horrible for CSM, kills how it was before, and generally only caters to those who only want another generic SM faction, thus why most of the actual players of CSM ignore the 'no undivided'.

And even then the writers themselves ignore it, only Kelly wrote the no Undivided marks, the No Legions, and everyone else from Black Library to Supplemental write about the LEGIONS.

Guess what, renegades are still a minority, and if they should make a renegade codex or supplement, great! Let them write it, but don't all over the actual fans of CSM, not some who believe in 'Evils happy happy family of generics' that you somewhat want.

The Purge.