Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Peregrine wrote:

Well, as long as you define "functioning" as "not qualified for college or any high-end jobs". And as long as you don't value education for its own sake.

Not to stray too far off topic, but if the school system was really interested in educating its students, it would give them more options for things to learn rather than just forcing a random hodgepodge of subjects on them. For example, someone interested in a career in mathematics should not be required to take three years of history or language. Someone interested in becoming an English teacher should not be required to take pre-calculus. The American school system enforces this idea of bringing up "well-rounded students" when all they're doing is teaching the majority of students lots of extraneous information in the place of other, more practical and important information such as:

- How to balance a checkbook.
- How to pay taxes
- What taxes are.
- How to apply for student loans.
- How to write a resume.
- Basic electrical knowledge.
- How to open a business.
- How to register to vote.
- Social issues.
- Human sexuality.
- How the government works. (Government is an, often under-developed, requirement or elective in most public and private schools.)
- Basic socio/psychological principles.

The American school system doesn't educate kids for the sake of educating them or helping them when they get out. It gives them what they think is a "well-rounded education" when in all reality they are only achieving two things. First, they are giving jobs to all the people that became teachers so that they can teach these kids things they will likely never use for any practical application in their life. Two, they are wasting the important developmental years of a persons life by bogging it down with lots of extraneous information while that time could be used for teaching them practical skills and trades or helping to craft a future that is conducive with the field they want to go into. Four years out of the awful years that were high school and I have yet to use the majority of the information I learned in it. Did it teach important things? Yes. Did those important things require four years of education? No. I learned more in my first two years out of school, working and living on my own, than I ever did in school. The most important of the things that I learned was how poorly the school system did at preparing me for the real world. Thank the Emperor that I have parents because without them, I'd be completely lost on the financial and political aspects of life.


But hey, at least I know all about Ernest Hemingway and life in Ancient Greece.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:
Damn, school has changed a lot since my day...

Thing with these 'sex with a teacher' style cases, you know the kid probably doesn't see it as a horrible abuse of his innocence. Heck if I had ever got to dance the horizontal tango with the hot teacher in our school and word got out about it, the only trouble I would have had would have been painfully sore hands from the sheer volume of random hi-fives from people as I walked past.

Really what im saying is that perhaps we need to lighten up a little on the whole 'appropriate behaviour for a teacher' thing, maybe if they weren't legally required to act like crusty old humourless farts, kids might actually want to go to school and learn.

At te end of the day it was a bit of harmless fun, not like she was luring him back to her gingerbread house to eat him or anything, the kid is probably basking in the glory, and no one got hurt so just give her a warning and get on with more important issues

You are reminding me of that video Feeder post in this very section :

feeder wrote:

In other words, I do not think I agree with you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Jihadnik wrote:
Kids have to learn about that stuff somewhere, and if their parents won't teach them...

No. Educating is one thing, experiencing is another. Even if the guy the lap dance was performed on was ready for it, it does not mean the other students in the class were. One should be extra prudent about anything related to sex, and clearly, from a teacher and therefore an authority figure, that was very wrong.

Congratulations on not understanding sarcasm...slow claps all around...

Oh. Sorry.

Why would do this?

how about if she blew him instead... would that have been ok too? no one got hurt right?

 Leigen_Zero wrote:
Damn, school has changed a lot since my day...

Thing with these 'sex with a teacher' style cases, you know the kid probably doesn't see it as a horrible abuse of his innocence. Heck if I had ever got to dance the horizontal tango with the hot teacher in our school and word got out about it, the only trouble I would have had would have been painfully sore hands from the sheer volume of random hi-fives from people as I walked past.

Really what im saying is that perhaps we need to lighten up a little on the whole 'appropriate behaviour for a teacher' thing, maybe if they weren't legally required to act like crusty old humourless farts, kids might actually want to go to school and learn.

At te end of the day it was a bit of harmless fun, not like she was luring him back to her gingerbread house to eat him or anything, the kid is probably basking in the glory, and no one got hurt so just give her a warning and get on with more important issues

I just have one question. Does that constitute extra credit?

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Well, as long as you define "functioning" as "not qualified for college or any high-end jobs". And as long as you don't value education for its own sake.

Not to stray too far off topic, but if the school system was really interested in educating its students, it would give them more options for things to learn rather than just forcing a random hodgepodge of subjects on them. For example, someone interested in a career in mathematics should not be required to take three years of history or language. Someone interested in becoming an English teacher should not be required to take pre-calculus. The American school system enforces this idea of bringing up "well-rounded students" when all they're doing is teaching the majority of students lots of extraneous information in the place of other, more practical and important information such as:

- How to balance a checkbook.
- How to pay taxes
- What taxes are.
- How to apply for student loans.
- How to write a resume.
- Basic electrical knowledge.
- How to open a business.
- How to register to vote.
- Social issues.
- Human sexuality.
- How the government works. (Government is an, often under-developed, requirement or elective in most public and private schools.)
- Basic socio/psychological principles.

The American school system doesn't educate kids for the sake of educating them or helping them when they get out. It gives them what they think is a "well-rounded education" when in all reality they are only achieving two things. First, they are giving jobs to all the people that became teachers so that they can teach these kids things they will likely never use for any practical application in their life. Two, they are wasting the important developmental years of a persons life by bogging it down with lots of extraneous information while that time could be used for teaching them practical skills and trades or helping to craft a future that is conducive with the field they want to go into. Four years out of the awful years that were high school and I have yet to use the majority of the information I learned in it. Did it teach important things? Yes. Did those important things require four years of education? No. I learned more in my first two years out of school, working and living on my own, than I ever did in school. The most important of the things that I learned was how poorly the school system did at preparing me for the real world. Thank the Emperor that I have parents because without them, I'd be completely lost on the financial and political aspects of life.


But hey, at least I know all about Ernest Hemingway and life in Ancient Greece.

I'm gonna go right ahead and sit on the fence here. While I get that academia is actually important for high end jobs, the fact of the matter is that not everyone uses Maths, English, Science - I'll probably never use trigonometry, being a writer and all - but then we run into the issue of practical education. What I mean by that is, why are people not taught the useful things that they will almost certainly need; how to cook, how to change a tire, basic social etiquette (no, really. Some people just don't know how to behave). Before people point out how trivial some of this stuff is, I'd like to remind them that I had to do sports as part of my education, learn about Ancient Greece, etc, and study maths, all at the same time. Conversely, I have no idea how half of the stuff in my house works, have no idea what the hell I do if/when I become a Dad, and am buggered if I'm handed a P45. What do I do with it? All I can say is, thank God for Google.
But similarly, English is pretty damn important for me. I wouldn't want guys that haven't been taught Maths working at NASA (well, the important parts anyway). So really, it's less about what is taught, just when that stuff is relevant. The way I see it, basic life skills should be taught from an early age, alongside basic Maths, English, Science, etc, before becoming more specialised later on.

I'm not sure where lapdances fit in though...

It’s not clear if the kid enjoyed the lap dance. However, he admitted that he did slap Smith’s ass a couple times.

I know this is a serious article, but it really isn't written like one at all.

I blame pornography. Young men watch plenty of teacher-student videos, but I don't doubt that the teachers watch the same things. Same with landlords and plumbers. They get these crazy ideas in their heads and just run with them.

This happened in Texas.

Where is Frazzled for first hand stateside commentary?

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
how about if she blew him instead... would that have been ok too? no one got hurt right?

I had a couple (far too few) high school and middle school teachers for which that would have been more than okay, looking back at myself as a teenager.

 WarOne wrote:
This happened in Texas.

Where is Frazzled for first hand stateside commentary?

This is more of a kronk area...

 Darth Bob wrote:

Not to stray too far off topic, but if the school system was really interested in educating its students, it would give them more options for things to learn rather than just forcing a random hodgepodge of subjects on them. For example, someone interested in a career in mathematics should not be required to take three years of history or language. Someone interested in becoming an English teacher should not be required to take pre-calculus. The American school system enforces this idea of bringing up "well-rounded students" when all they're doing is teaching the majority of students lots of extraneous information in the place of other, more practical and important information such as:

Sounds like your school did suck. However, just because someone's interested in becoming an English teacher while in high school doesn't mean that they will, at which point they'll be glad to have those basic math skills when they're instead learning to be an electrician or get a desk job doing beancounting for some or other corporation because their interest changed or they just couldn't cut it. That's rather the point of giving an all-round education in high school. Everyone, regardless of what they're going to be later in life has to go to high school, so it has to teach things that are applicable to the broadest possible range of future careers. Thus, everyone has to learn a little bit of everything, because the schools don't have the resources to tailor to every single student's demands, and if they tailor to only one target group of future careers, the others will rightfully call foul, and if they cater to none, it might as well be abolished and the students sent directly to trade schools or onto the job market.

- How to balance a checkbook.
- How to pay taxes
- What taxes are.

Um, doesn't this get taught in economy classes? Same goes for opening a business (see below).

- How to apply for student loans.

We did get taught this in the Netherlands. At least, I was, but I graduated high school over 15 years ago. It may have changed.

- How to write a resume.

Language skill. Got taught this in Dutch (and German) classes. Less so in English and French, but that would be redundant.

- Basic electrical knowledge.

Physics? As for how to change a fuse, maybe ask your dad? Parents should also take an active role in educating their children, and extremely minor, everyday things like that are exactly the kind of thing that any reasonably intuitive person can learn from their parents.

- How to open a business.
- How to register to vote.
- Social issues.
- Human sexuality.
- How the government works. (Government is an, often under-developed, requirement or elective in most public and private schools.)
- Basic socio/psychological principles.

Same thing goes for a lot of these. I have 0 interest in opening my own business. Why should I be forced to learn how? Also, economy class. Social issues, were handled in social classes, as well as history and (depending on teacher enthusiasm, sometimes, in language classes as well, as social issues often follow from cultural norms, and a language class also teaches a bit of the culture of the country in question. Also, parents should definitely be engaged in this one.
Sexuality? Biology, or for you Americans, apparently a separate class called sex ed. But here, also parents should take an active role (um, not too active, though, before anyone gets any funny ideas :-P).
How the government works? History class went into it in depth. I've forgotten most of it, but I do know how it works.

The American school system doesn't educate kids for the sake of educating them or helping them when they get out. It gives them what they think is a "well-rounded education" when in all reality they are only achieving two things. First, they are giving jobs to all the people that became teachers so that they can teach these kids things they will likely never use for any practical application in their life. Two, they are wasting the important developmental years of a persons life by bogging it down with lots of extraneous information while that time could be used for teaching them practical skills and trades or helping to craft a future that is conducive with the field they want to go into. Four years out of the awful years that were high school and I have yet to use the majority of the information I learned in it. Did it teach important things? Yes. Did those important things require four years of education? No. I learned more in my first two years out of school, working and living on my own, than I ever did in school. The most important of the things that I learned was how poorly the school system did at preparing me for the real world. Thank the Emperor that I have parents because without them, I'd be completely lost on the financial and political aspects of life.

But hey, at least I know all about Ernest Hemingway and life in Ancient Greece.

I use most of the stuff that I learned in high school. Not everything all the time, but enough of it at one time or another that I certainly don't think any of it was wasted. And hey, if your teacher was a decent storyteller, those stories about ancient Greece like Thermopylae and Marathon and Socrates and his poison cup kicked butt!

 d-usa wrote:
Houston?

Enough said...

Sounds about right.

 d-usa wrote:
Common Core people, not Common Whore....

That's what you get when you let the Federal Government mess with our education.

These two sentences have just proved why we need a good and strong education system.

A small side note, excellent products of sentence structure and grammar. I would say high school did far more for many people than the ones that are saying it did not.

 Darth Bob wrote:



Not to stray too far off topic, but if the school system was really interested in educating its students, it would give them more options for things to learn rather than just forcing a random hodgepodge of subjects on them. For example, someone interested in a career in mathematics should not be required to take three years of history or language. Someone interested in becoming an English teacher should not be required to take pre-calculus. The American school system enforces this idea of bringing up "well-rounded students" when all they're doing is teaching the majority of students lots of extraneous information in the place of other, more practical and important information such as:

While I get what you mean here, you go a little too far. Even in Mathematics, the ability to write and write well is extremely important. Mathematical proofs in practice aren't just a bunch of numbers but a long triad bordering on philosophy to explain the numbers. History as well is commonly overlooked in other academic fields. Any scientist or mathematician, should know the history of their field. Not to mention that in practical aspects of politics and being a well informed citizen, history is probably one of the most important academic disciplines.

The goal of education shouldn't just be to get people good jobs it should be to make them capable citizens able to understand the world around them. Our education system's liberal arts model is flawed, not pointless. We don't run it well or fund it properly so it has ended up not producing desired results. We've also arguably overly politicized the classroom over the past few decades.

Earnest Hemingway, while culturally relevant to anyone studying literature, isn't really a relevant modern topic in everyday life. The history of Greece on the other hand...

Quite honestly, if this happened to me I would have felt really uncomfortable and I don't know if I would have been able to ever attend that class again without feeling horribly awkward. But I'm kinda weird so I guess there you go.

Anyway, I do so wish that Home Economics was still an option in my high school. I don't care whether you're a man or woman, the stuff they teach in that class is dang useful and I would have loved to have got some of it taught to me in a formal setting.

Also I don't think that the only point of education should be to prepare you for a job. I guess I'm probably biased because I went to a charter school that was really into the humanities (history and literature and such) but some basic knowledge of history and human culture is important. I want people to understand where we've been as a species and what various people have thought. I'll admit that I've failed on this a lot sicne high school since most of our classes end up as debates so I kinda got sick of hearing about philosophy/politics. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taught (do what I say not what I do and such)

It’s not clear if the kid enjoyed the lap dance. However, he admitted that he did slap Smith’s ass a couple times.

It’s not clear if the kid enjoyed the lap dance. However, he admitted that he did slap Smith’s ass a couple times.

It’s not clear if the kid enjoyed the lap dance. However, he admitted that he did slap Smith’s ass a couple times.

Ahtman nailed it in one.


I hope the music was N.E.R.D; and that the student was, indeed, "a dirty dawg".

(I'm not going to quote the posts, it's approaching wall of text territory)
@Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl & usernamesareannoying

Firstly, I do not condone rape in any form, nor find it hilarious, in fact it's one of those crimes I feel particularly strong about in terms of what should happen to the people convicted of it. Please do not assume that because I do not find anything morally outrageous in this case that I possess such a degenerate sexual morality as possesed by that video...

All I'm trying to say is in this case, I don't think there was much harm done, I mean, you don't slap the ass of a person giving you an impromptu lapdance if you are horrificially traumatised by it. If anything, the kid was probably a little embarrased, but I know if I was in his position I would probably be able to walk it off without too much issue.

There is most definately a line between being provocative while messing around and predatory behaviour, in this case, in my opinion no real harm done. But that's not to say there aren't boundaries that should never be crossed between a teacher and a student, and I'm certainly not saying that it's all harmless fun[/b], I am fully aware that much pain and suffering is caused by teachers using their positions of trust to predate upon and abuse students, for which the abusers should be punished very harshly.

I should point out, that where I grew up, people tended to grow up pretty fast once they hit puberty, so I may have a bit of a skewed mindset on this. Specifically pertaining to the 'blew him' comment, I would say that in my school, if a random 14 year old student was offered said act by a teacher, about 80% would have had no qualms with indulging in it, and would probably have attained local legend status in doing so, but like I say, my little corner of the south wales valleys is quite different from a lot of the world.

EDIT: In trying to avoid a wall-of-text, I accidentally double-posted creating, you guessed it, a wall of text

@Leigen_Zero - the biggest point to be taken is that school is not the place for this, especially by the people we trust to watch and teach our children.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
It is a valuable life skill. One wrong move and bam, the cops are walking you out the door while she screams at the arresting officer "no one's treated me that way since my father!"

See, this just supports my opinion on high school - 4/5 of the crap they teach you is useless. How many times have you measured the shadow of a tree to figure out how tall the tree is? A third of high school ought to be useful life lessons. How to change a fuse, how to check/change your oil, balance a checkbook, snake a drain, basic - and I mean basic cooking lessons, how to drive stick, basic recognition of how advertisements lie to you, how to not get bounced out of a stripclub/bar ..... but instead they teach pottery like it has some intrinsic social worth. Holy crap, I made a whistle.

Indeed, I didn't learn much anything useful between the ages of 14 and 18.

We could probably revolutionize our school system if we cut High School down to 5 classes. Algebra, basic maintenance of household equipment and vehicles, cooking, personal finances, and your choice of a practical elective(some sort of trade skill. Like Welding, Carpentry, Painting, etc...)

Boom, cut High School down to 2 years and create functioning adults.

Hell, why bother with all that edumacashun stuff at all? Teach 'em to add and how to read the Bible, then at 10 years old send the nippers up the bloody chimenies, or put them to work cleaning out factory machinery with their wee hands - much cheaper than adult labour, and if they lose a limb, well, life's tough, better we learn 'em that young.

If you didn't learn anything useful at school, unless you had a recognised learning disability the problem usually isn't school, it's you. And just because you weren't willing to put in the effort to better yourself through learning doesn't mean society should deprive those who are of the opportunity.

That video was not about how rape could be hilarious. That was just the provocative title. It was basically to show that even if you are supposed to enjoy sex, if it is not your decision, or if you are in any way pressured into it, especially by an adult that is in charge of you, it is very wrong. Maybe if you had been in his position you would have genuinely enjoyed it. It may not be the case for others, though. And that is a risk no teacher should be willing to take, ever.

LordofHats wrote:Earnest Hemingway, while culturally relevant to anyone studying literature, isn't really a relevant modern topic in everyday life. The history of Greece on the other hand...

I don't know, his work is very good and learning about his personal life shows kids that mental illness and addiction doesn't give a gak about your fame or massive talent. Yes, Ancient Greece is cool.

Leigen_Zero wrote:
Firstly, I do not condone rape in any form, nor find it hilarious, in fact it's one of those crimes I feel particularly strong about in terms of what should happen to the people convicted of it. Please do not assume that because I do not find anything morally outrageous in this case that I possess such a degenerate sexual morality as possesed by that video...

I suggest you actually watch the video. He powerfully contradicts everything you just said.

If a 40 something male teacher had one of his students do a lap dance for him, I think it would be a safe bet the comments would be far more outraged.

If a 40 something make teacher had done a lap dance, though, it would surely raise a bunch of eyebrows.

Would we have been more okay with this if it was a senior in high school who had just turned 18? I mean, honestly, it was middle schoolers. That's a big deal. But a student just turning 18? Would she still have gotten in trouble? Yeah. Would it have been as long-term? Maybe not. I'm thinking she wanted to be "the cool teacher". Hell, when I was subbing, I was the cool sub, and lap dances were NOT the cause of it. I closed the door, told the seniors they were adults and that I didn't give a gak if they swore in class-if they behaved as adults, I'd treat them as adults. If they behaved as kids, I'd take away privileges. Worked for all but two of them. I also let the seniors have cell phones out during study hall, and the only discussions I broke up were the ones about parties-I told them to shut it, because I had no desire to report them-or I'd ask "you guys are only drinking root beer, right?" Seniors will be seniors. Hell, I did it when I was their age, and so did most of you, I'd gather. They knew they weren't getting away with anything I didn't let them. I also proved on a daily basis that I didn't fall for any of their BS, and now that I'm done and most of the students I had have graduated, I'm actually friends with some of them. Have a bunch of them on my Xbox live friendlist. Again...that's being a "cool" teacher without crossing the line. This lady took a thermonuclear device to the line by doing this with middle schoolers.

And yes, I did swear in front of the seniors to get my point across that it was okay. People swear in the business world. My boss drops about 5-10 F-bombs any given morning. Coddling 17 and 18 year olds is a recipe for disaster.

 Desubot wrote:
"42"

I dont know how to feel

So Jennifer Aniston is too old to be hot (45)?

Jennifer Anniston is gorgeous. If you disagree, you aren't a real man.

 Byte wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
"42"

I dont know how to feel

So Jennifer Aniston is too old to be hot (45)?

So gross.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:
(I'm not going to quote the posts, it's approaching wall of text territory)
@Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl & usernamesareannoying

Firstly, I do not condone rape in any form, nor find it hilarious, in fact it's one of those crimes I feel particularly strong about in terms of what should happen to the people convicted of it. Please do not assume that because I do not find anything morally outrageous in this case that I possess such a degenerate sexual morality as possesed by that video...

And with this line you prove to everyone that you didn't actually watch the video you're condemning.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:
(I'm not going to quote the posts, it's approaching wall of text territory)
@Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl & usernamesareannoying

Firstly, I do not condone rape in any form, nor find it hilarious, in fact it's one of those crimes I feel particularly strong about in terms of what should happen to the people convicted of it. Please do not assume that because I do not find anything morally outrageous in this case that I possess such a degenerate sexual morality as possesed by that video...

All I'm trying to say is in this case, I don't think there was much harm done, I mean, you don't slap the ass of a person giving you an impromptu lapdance if you are horrificially traumatised by it. If anything, the kid was probably a little embarrased, but I know if I was in his position I would probably be able to walk it off without too much issue.

There is most definately a line between being provocative while messing around and predatory behaviour, in this case, in my opinion no real harm done. But that's not to say there aren't boundaries that should never be crossed between a teacher and a student, and I'm certainly not saying that it's all harmless fun[/b], I am fully aware that much pain and suffering is caused by teachers using their positions of trust to predate upon and abuse students, for which the abusers should be punished very harshly.

I should point out, that where I grew up, people tended to grow up pretty fast once they hit puberty, so I may have a bit of a skewed mindset on this. Specifically pertaining to the 'blew him' comment, I would say that in my school, if a random 14 year old student was offered said act by a teacher, about 80% would have had no qualms with indulging in it, and would probably have attained local legend status in doing so, but like I say, my little corner of the south wales valleys is quite different from a lot of the world.

EDIT: In trying to avoid a wall-of-text, I accidentally double-posted creating, you guessed it, a wall of text

Are you a parent? I ask because any parent I know, myself included and possibly most here that are parents would probably be willing to heavily prosecute any teacher that came on to our children like you seem to defend and say, "no harm done".