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What I like about John Kerry is that he often unites Conservatives and Liberals, left and right, in their dislike of him. He brings people together.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Tell that to Bradley Manning.

Difference is, Manning is a fething traitor, and worthless scum in my eyes... I'm sorry, you simply just do NOT do what he/she/it did to the people who wear the same uniform as you do.

I don't know what kind of "oaths" or whatever Snowden had to say as part of being a civilian contractor, but Manning had a whole lot more riding on him than Snowden.

I think his point is that the military held Manning in solitary confinement without filing charges for over a year. During which he didn't have a bed, wasn't allowed to speak or exercise, and had jailors wake him every four hours (as a "precaution against suicide"). The UN Special Rapporteur called the conditions "cruel, inhuman and degrading."

There was a time when we charged someone with a crime and carried out the sentence, following the law. Instead, our system now locks alleged criminals away without access to trial or attorney. The military picked some people up in Afghanistan who've been sitting in prison for eight years without any charges. Once upon a time, if you couldn't convict someone in a court of law, then they weren't criminals.

How could anyone of sound mind (like Snowden) turn themselves into that sort of corrupt system? We used to give our citizens due process.

Well said silo, exalted.

Disappear, be tortured for a year and killed quietly in a cell like a man! American justice!

 TheSilo wrote:


How could anyone of sound mind (like Snowden) turn themselves into that sort of corrupt system? We used to give our citizens due process.

And I agree with you that Snowden is being very smart by NOT complying with Kerry's wishes. Quite frankly, even IF a trial went ahead with Snowden located in a safe place, and he was found innocent, were I him, I wouldn't come back to the US.

Also there is a pretty big difference between what the UCMJ, which manning falls under, and civil law, which Snowden falls under.

 Ahtman wrote:
What I like about John Kerry is that he often unites Conservatives and Liberals, left and right, in their dislike of him. He brings people together.

And that makes his face droop with joy.

 Ouze wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
What I like about John Kerry is that he often unites Conservatives and Liberals, left and right, in their dislike of him. He brings people together.

And that makes his face droop with joy.

Celebratory warning shot!

Was that a shot across his bow on his yacht?

Like Ensis said Manning falls under UCMJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice, compare to Snowden fallen under Federal/Civil/State/whatever else can fit in on Snowden

I swear I just had the most brain dead conversation about this with a friend. Make it short his words were "Kerry is right. He should come back and face trial for his treasonous actions." My response "He'd be insane to come back because people like you would be on the jury."

He really should man up, just like Bradley Manning.

Oh, wait.... Lol

 Jihadin wrote:
Like Ensis said Manning falls under UCMJ, Uniform Code of Military Justice, compare to Snowden fallen under Federal/Civil/State/whatever else can fit in on Snowden

I also think a clear distinction can be shown between the actions of Manning and Snowden. Manning recklessly released information indiscriminately, revealed no real scandals by his actions, and really was just an idiot. Snowden released specific information about a specific program. Manning is a whiny disgruntled baby pretending to be a whistle blower. Snowden actually is a whistle blower.

It's possible to be both a whistleblower and a traitor. He's both. I don't agree with everything the NSA did; I don't agree with Snowden exposing everything his TS/SCI allowed him access to. The notion that he alone is qualified to determine what the American public should and should not know is ludicrous. He engaged in the textbook definition of espionage to do what he did.

I also think he lost his "warrior of the people for truth and justice" credibility when he willingly became Putin's sockpuppet.

 Seaward wrote:
It's possible to be both a whistleblower and a traitor. He's both. I don't agree with everything the NSA did; I don't agree with Snowden exposing everything his TS/SCI allowed him access to. The notion that he alone is qualified to determine what the American public should and should not know is ludicrous. He engaged in the textbook definition of espionage to do what he did.

I also think he lost his "warrior of the people for truth and justice" credibility when he willingly became Putin's sockpuppet.

Very well said.

Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.

I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.

Kerry should man-up and admit who his real bosses are ( cuz it ain't the electorate)

Allowing for what the US government wants to do to Julian Assange, who has no legal or moral obligation to be discrete over leaked US government documentation; what more would they do to a US national.

 Easy E wrote:
Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.

I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.

Please. He didn't "challenge" Putin, he gave him a softball question to set up Putin's "explanation." Putin has fairly obviously used Snowden for PR purposes, and Snowden fairly obviously doesn't care so long as his ass is safe.

 gorgon wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.

I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.

Please. He didn't "challenge" Putin, he gave him a softball question to set up Putin's "explanation." Putin has fairly obviously used Snowden for PR purposes, and Snowden fairly obviously doesn't care so long as his ass is safe.

Sounds rather like the smart thing to do in his situation. Where else could he run if he pissed of Putin? That doesn't diminish everything he's done and sacrificed.

 Easy E wrote:
Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.

I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.

Did you actually watch Snowden "challening" Putin on Russian TV?

I don't consider tossing a pre-arranged softball for the sole purpose of making the individual being "challenged" look good to meet the definition of that particular word, but then I suppose your mileage may vary.

 Seaward wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Please tell me what Snowden did to be PUtin's sock puppet.

I seem to recall Snowden challenging Putin on Russian National TV over their own domestic spying programs. NOt exactly sock puppet behaviour.

Did you actually watch Snowden "challening" Putin on Russian TV?

I don't consider tossing a pre-arranged softball for the sole purpose of making the individual being "challenged" look good to meet the definition of that particular word, but then I suppose your mileage may vary.

Why not? It's what we do in the US too.

Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.

"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"

What a gakker.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.

"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"

What a gakker.

Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.

"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"

What a gakker.

You sure it's not just Russia that you hate? Because it kind of more seems that way.

Out of curiosity, what would you have had him do? Stick around, not be able to get anything out in the open, and then get tossed into some US gul.. err, "enhanced interrogation camp" somewhere?

The only places he COULD go and not get killed/returned/imprisoned indefinitely WERE places that upset your sensibilities. Consider that anywhere pleasant would have just immediately returned him, after probably smacking him around a bit themselves for pointing out the man behind the curtain.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.

"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"

What a gakker.

Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.

Then live in the airport and make a deal with the US gov. to not reveal any more info in return for a pardon. I'm sure they would have loved that, especially since it would mean that Russia doesn't get any info. He has always seemed to be a bit self-serving, and arrogant to me.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.

"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"

What a gakker.

Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.

Then live in the airport and make a deal with the US gov. to not reveal any more info in return for a pardon. I'm sure they would have loved that, especially since it would mean that Russia doesn't get any info. He has always seemed to be a bit self-serving, and arrogant to me.

That would go against exactly what he 'preaches'.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.

"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"

What a gakker.

Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.

Then live in the airport and make a deal with the US gov. to not reveal any more info in return for a pardon. I'm sure they would have loved that, especially since it would mean that Russia doesn't get any info. He has always seemed to be a bit self-serving, and arrogant to me.

That would go against exactly what he 'preaches'.

So it would be better to give only Russia the info?

But he doesn't. He makes it public.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Ah, Snowden. He lost all legitimacy in my eyes after he ran to Russia.

"Oh-no, the US is invading people's privacy! It violates people's rights! Better go to Russia, a cesspit of corruption, lack of rights!"

What a gakker.

Yeah, it's not like the US government cancelled his passport when he was on his way to another location, leaving him stranded there.

Then live in the airport and make a deal with the US gov. to not reveal any more info in return for a pardon. I'm sure they would have loved that, especially since it would mean that Russia doesn't get any info. He has always seemed to be a bit self-serving, and arrogant to me.

Not reveal any more in return for a pardon? That's one of the most unlikely scenarios I can imagine. No, I'd say that as soon as he stepped foot in America, regardless of any previous arrangements, he would be detained until such time as the government felt like giving him a trial.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

So it would be better to give only Russia the info?

I feel like you're inventing scenarios.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
But he doesn't. He makes it public.

And what has he said recently? He is supposed to still have a bunch of other info, which now the Russian gov has. He worked for the NSA and got a lot of info, you can't honestly believe that this is all he saw.