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100 points for something with almost double digits in Attacks, WS, and I? And ignores all armor saves? And -1 A off anything she touches? Has Fleet, and can get FNP, FC, and Fearless?

Ya'll are crazy, although this is pretty typical of the "I really want to field this unit and totally would if it was completely over powered" mindset that plagues the game.

She might be a tad over costed, 10 to 15 points, but ya'll aren't even in the right neighborhood. The 9 WS, in particular, is a very valuable stat. You don't need Eternal Warrior when the average power fist has less then a 10% chance of even scoring a wound on you. Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of the competitive meta is shooty based and will just get sliced through by her with little chance of reprisal.

IF you can get her there. That's the tricky part. Let's see where all the psycher shenanigans of 7th take us.

That's fair, and it's definitely the reason why most people under value her. Once she's in CC though she completely cleans house. Just learn how to get her there consistently and you'll be GtG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I should mention, she's almost statically perfect to remove most MSU troop squads in 2 rounds of combat. That's why she can be so deadly, as it allows her to literally clean out their entire backfield by her self, or, at the very least, severly disrupt their plans by the mass exodus from her location.

Again. Get her into CC. Get creative about it. She'll do the heavy lifting from there.

Is truth, she wins at CC, and is also truth that it's difficult to get her there.
My next thought?
Bring her with Grot escorts; run two units of Incubi and piles of wyches nearby; that way if your opponent is determined enough to wipe Lelith's Raider they get incubi to the face.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
100 points for something with almost double digits in Attacks, WS, and I? And ignores all armor saves? And -1 A off anything she touches? Has Fleet, and can get FNP, FC, and Fearless?

Ya'll are crazy, although this is pretty typical of the "I really want to field this unit and totally would if it was completely over powered" mindset that plagues the game.

We are, are we? Let's talk about this so-called super woman of awesome devastation that we have here. I probably haven't played enough Dark Eldar to understand the deal that I'm overlooking, and am probably crazy pants for thinking that a generic Archon is a better unit in close combat (even though he blatantly is, and costs less...I guess we could argue that the Archon is an overpowered unit...except I don't seem him listed very often when people are complaining about overpowered units. Usually from our dex the complaint is Baron and Beasts or the Venom, but it's not like the DE dex is pointed at as a badly designed codex as far as OP units goes, and really the Baron only hits full cheese with Allies (which I'll happily agree is a badly designed rule)).

Let's toss Lelith versus something similar in cost...oh, look, a generic Chapter Master with a Power Fist costs 155, so he's cheaper than she is. She should totally eat his face, am I right? And it's not like this is a ludicrous matchup, it's a baseline Chapter Master, I'm not even being a jerk and tossing her against a Warboss on a bike (who at 150 would totally eat her face without trying) nor am I giving the Chapter Master his usual type of loadout with burning blades or eternal shields, wherein he would stomp her flat in seconds. Let's just assume they manage to get to the center of the board without Lelith's Raider being blasted out from under her or her being then hit by his orbital bombardment for assured death. Nope, we'll just give her that she gets to assault. Also, she can do the assault, after all, she has fleet, she probably would. So here comes the clash of champions!

Lelith will swing first with her awesome WS9 and uber Attack characteristic. So she pops in with 8 attacks. Hits on 3s - so 5 hits. Will wound on 5s - 1.77 wounds, call it 2 to be nice - after saves he takes 1 wound.
Then that hapless Chapter Master (whom I haven't even given Chapter Traits) swings his fist, he has 3 attacks and will hit on 4s for 1.5 hits, wounds on 2+ for 1.25 wounds, after saves that's .41 wounds.

So, it should take him roughly 3 rounds to score a wound on her.
She'll (on subsequent rounds) do an average of .77 wounds to him.

That means, on average, within three rounds he will cause one wound to her, inflict instant death, and win the fight with 1-3 wounds remaining.



He costs less than her, and he beats her fairly functionally. In fact, it is unusual for her to beat him, and I gave her all the benefits in this theory matchup. Even if I toss in that she tossed a grenade at him on the way in, and hit and wounded him (hitting is likely, wounding him is less so) her odds of killing him before he kills her are...iffy at best.
If she has FNP from a freindly Haem (making her functional cost higher) it doesn't matter because he's instant death-ing her overpriced, if finely sculpted, backside.
She is, supposed to be an amazing duelist...this is supposedly her bailiwick.

As mentioned, an Ork Warboss on bike would cost less and eat her up even quicker, and barely be scratched.

Okay, but maybe I'm being a jerk, maybe her deal is murdering mobs, yeah? Like, say, there is just a pile of mooks, and it's her job to tear those up (because I want to pay 175 for a unit that can do what my basic rifle can do) Okay, let's see that awesomeness at work.
Say she jumps a mob of Orks, Marines, or Imperial Guard and doesn't get chewed to pieces by their overwatch. (we'll just give her that...somehow)

She'll hit probably 9-11 times or so, depending.
Will hit on 3+
Will wound on 4-5+
So that's 2.44 - 3.66 wounds or so, on average depending on what she's hitting.
That;s 3-4 dead guardsmen.
2-3 dead Marines or Orks.

...I mean, 175 points for causing about 3 dead Guardsmen or Marines in assault.

The Chapter Master does basically 3 dead to any of the above - he costs less.
The aforementioned Warboss does a bit more, and he also costs less.

So, both a Warboss with Klaw (on bike or foot) and a Generic Chapter master w. Powerfist are better than Lelith in a 1 on 1 fight, and are *also* just as good at killing mobs.
Both also cost less than her.

So...what exactly am I paying those extra points for? She's inferior to cheaper competition.
Even within the DE codex she is an inferior option, as I could take an Archon who costs less than her and would be better able to win the challenges and just as able to inflict damage on hordes.
I might almost forgive them if they just borked her up compared to other codices - that happens. But within her own codex she is inferior at both what she purportedly does, and also at what she is actually capable of doing.than other HQ options in the same codex who cost *less* than she does.

Yes, she is over priced.
No, it is not because "I really want to field this unit and totally would if it was completely over powered" it is because I want her to be in the price range of the rest of her very own codex.
The prices I suggested for her (100 is good, 110 is acceptable, 120 is overpriced) holds with other options from the DE codex and how they are priced and how they would do in similar battles. Those are, in my opinion, legit fair cost suggestions for Lelith as she stands and with all her rules and functions in effect. At 175 she is a terrible unit who was badly designed. You just need to look at other point costs in her own codex to see this, and it has nothing to do with making her overpowered.

That's where I'm coming from.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
Hmm, lilith, jain, farseer running around in a raider with harlequins, veil of tears FTW.

Veil of Tears can't be used inside a transport.

Also, it blows.

Read the 7th ed rule book before commenting.

Also, it is the anti blow.

@ thor-Have an exalt! You also short changed the chapter master who has 4 attacks basic lol.

 Thor665 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
100 points for something with almost double digits in Attacks, WS, and I? And ignores all armor saves? And -1 A off anything she touches? Has Fleet, and can get FNP, FC, and Fearless?

Ya'll are crazy, although this is pretty typical of the "I really want to field this unit and totally would if it was completely over powered" mindset that plagues the game.

We are, are we? Let's talk about this so-called super woman of awesome devastation that we have here. I probably haven't played enough Dark Eldar to understand the deal that I'm overlooking, and am probably crazy pants for thinking that a generic Archon is a better unit in close combat (even though he blatantly is, and costs less...I guess we could argue that the Archon is an overpowered unit...except I don't seem him listed very often when people are complaining about overpowered units. Usually from our dex the complaint is Baron and Beasts or the Venom, but it's not like the DE dex is pointed at as a badly designed codex as far as OP units goes, and really the Baron only hits full cheese with Allies (which I'll happily agree is a badly designed rule)).

.....stuff I agree with.....

That's where I'm coming from.

Yeah, she is just terrible for what she does. The chaptermaster and the warboss can also unlock things into troops, are better at shooting, and the chapy master has orbital bombardment.

Even an archon is stilling at a relatively expensive price point. Str3 T3 just isnt worth that much, even if it is paired with WS10 and Init 10(lelith is getting close)

 Arbiter wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
Hmm, lilith, jain, farseer running around in a raider with harlequins, veil of tears FTW.

Veil of Tears can't be used inside a transport.

Also, it blows.

Read the 7th ed rule book before commenting.

Also, it is the anti blow.

If you want it to resolve successfully your going to have to run a high risk of perils and killing the shadow seer. So yea, I'd say it blows.

Its WC 1, throw 2 or 3 dice at it, no real problems unless your dice are crappy or weighted to 6s.

Cant atleast put that little deathstar in the Dias? That raider will likely expload turn one tossing in like 6-7 wounds. Then baby deathstar will have to walk around with one unit really capable of tanking whatever hits may get through invisibility, if you get it off. (Also assuming you wanted the better buff for a low save unit)

If veil worked on transports, that would be one thing. But as it stands you dont have the buffs you need just in case the enemy has a couple shots hit in the first turn.

You could put them in the dias, but then you would need vect. Though that would be a cool ministar Vect/Litlith/jain zar/eldrad and 5 harlequins with shadow seer.

 Arbiter wrote:
You could put them in the dias, but then you would need vect. Though that would be a cool ministar Vect/Litlith/jain zar/eldrad and 5 harlequins with shadow seer.

That's not expensive or anything.

 Exergy wrote:


That's not expensive or anything.

Vect has expensive tastes.....

That aside, it would be terrifying. Lilith is decent, but she has issues chewing through CC HQ's, which is what most people would expect a unit of her type to do.
Seems sad really, that the best gladiator in Commoragh is best used of chewing through chaff.
Still, taking her as a secondary HQ could be useful with Incubi to use to push up an edge as a scare tactic. Bit... lacklustre though.

So no, not really worth taking, as her job can be done better by other things, sadly.

Well of course Vect have expensive tastes...

Though it does make sense that Lilith is only good VS scrubs, they arn't able to capture space marine captains or anything that strong. Just guardsmen or some guardians.

 Red Corsair wrote:
@ thor-Have an exalt! You also short changed the chapter master who has 4 attacks basic lol.

No, I remembered that, but she uses her hair like a shardnet and robs him of an attack if he's in base contact with her, so he goes from 4 to the 3 I ran him with, at least a high Str doesn't negate that effect anymore like in our last dex, but it still doesn't make her all that good..

Stick her with vect, eldrad and jain'zar in the dais with 3 grotesques and deep strike that bad boy.

Why? Then you cannot assault until turn 3 at best. I say load them up turn 1 flat out and get some turn 2 assaults.

 Arbiter wrote:
Well of course Vect have expensive tastes...

Though it does make sense that Lilith is only good VS scrubs, they arn't able to capture space marine captains or anything that strong. Just guardsmen or some guardians.

Commoragh pits have all manner of space marines, chapter masters and khorne devotees included.

What a load of gak. We have proven that Lilith cannot beat a space marine chapter master, and only kills about 3 marines per faze, if she could do more I would agree with you but since she cannot I will need actual evidence.

Rules =/= fluff. Adeptus Astartes warriors are prized combatants in the gladiatorial pits.

p. 15, Dark Eldar Codex: "Those [Space Marines] that had been cut off from the main assault.... were paralyzed with hypertoxins and taken away to fight and die as warrior-slaves."

p. 30 "In the Dark City, [the Dark Eldar's] arenas have played host to a broad variety of dangerous creatures.... even captured Adeptus Astartes warriors."

On Lelith versus Space Marines:

p. 15 "It was then that the Wyches of the Cult of Strife joined the fight. Hundreds of beautiful but deadly warriors leapt and spun through the mustered Space Marines with dizzying speed....

...At their head fought Lelith Hesperax; grace and power incarnate. Warriors fell apart around her; chainswords fell from lifeless hands and bolter rounds hurtled through empty space where a blood-spattered she-devil stood a split-second before."

Lelith might not have +4 STR, but fluff-wise, she's fought masses of Space Marines before and won. And that was with ~7000 years less experience than she has now. Conclusion: rrunch-wise, I wouldn't send her against a Chapter Master. Fluff-wise, I wouldn't give the Chapter Master nearly as good odds.

My mathammer might be bad but, here's what I see against MEQ without special gear;

Lelith 175pts .66 hit x .33 wound x 1 AP2 = .18 chance to wound
Archon (ShadowField + VBlade only) 95pts .66 hit x .82 wound x .33 3+Save = .14 chance to wound
Archon (ShadowField + HuskBlade only) 110pts = above stuff but AP2 = .54 chance to wound

Even with the extra 25pts for a Huskblade an Archon is just so much more points efficient. The -only- reason I would use her is to have a model on the table who looks like she could put it down (the sculptor did a great job of giving her "Dat Azz". TM

Oh and 2++ TFG save I heart so much.

Lelith 175pts .66 hit x .33 wound x 1 AP2 = .18 chance to wound
Archon (ShadowField + VBlade only) 95pts .66 hit x .82 wound x .33 3+Save = .14 chance to wound
Archon (ShadowField + HuskBlade only) 110pts = above stuff but AP2 = .54 chance to wound

Uh....surely you realize what's wrong with this assessment, right? Some key things you might be missing? No?

We are, are we? Let's talk about this so-called super woman of awesome devastation that we have here.

Starting off with absurd hyperbole and completely misstating my position. Good Start.

I probably haven't played enough Dark Eldar to understand the deal that I'm overlooking, and am probably crazy pants for thinking that a generic Archon is a better unit in close combat (even though he blatantly is, and costs less...I guess we could argue that the Archon is an overpowered unit...except I don't seem him listed very often when people are complaining about overpowered units. Usually from our dex the complaint is Baron and Beasts or the Venom, but it's not like the DE dex is pointed at as a badly designed codex as far as OP units goes, and really the Baron only hits full cheese with Allies (which I'll happily agree is a badly designed rule)).

Nice rant, although it has very little to do with the conversation.

Let's toss Lelith versus something similar in cost...oh, look, a generic Chapter Master with a Power Fist costs 155, so he's cheaper than she is. She should totally eat his face, am I right?

If you think a 20 point difference some how means Unit A will always beat Unit B, and if it doesn't, it's not viable, then your simply very bad at appraising this game. Certain units match up better against certain other units. I'm honestly surprised you've been playing this game as long as you have and haven't figured that out yet.

That means, on average, within three rounds he will cause one wound to her, inflict instant death, and win the fight with 1-3 wounds remaining.

1 to 3 wounds remaining? Or maybe he has zero wounds remaining? Because, you know, averages don't guarantee success, and stuff. I had a feeling this is where this is going. And how exactly would a burning blade make him kill her even faster?

He costs less than her, and he beats her fairly functionally.

Not even remotely true. It's probably ~60% chapter master ~40% Lelith. You really don't understand how math works.

In fact, it is unusual for her to beat him, and I gave her all the benefits in this theory matchup.

You did? Furious Charge? Could have sworn she could get that somehow...

She is, supposed to be an amazing duelist...this is supposedly her bailiwick.

Well, she might not fit the fulff, but that's simply not what she is. She's a weed whacker, and a rather efficient one at that.

As mentioned, an Ork Warboss on bike would cost less and eat her up even quicker, and barely be scratched.

Yeah, cool, so there are some dedicated CC HQ's you wouldn't want to throw her against. Which is why you wouldn't. Of course, in the actual meta, the units you mentioned are about as rare as rain in the desert. The vast majority of people don't bring dedicated CC HQs. More importantly, of course, is the fact that no Dark Eldar players is going to willfully throw her at bad matchups. She rides in a fast assault skimmer, has fleet, etc.

Okay, but maybe I'm being a jerk, maybe her deal is murdering mobs, yeah? Like, say, there is just a pile of mooks, and it's her job to tear those up (because I want to pay 175 for a unit that can do what my basic rifle can do) Okay, let's see that awesomeness at work.

So, both a Warboss with Klaw (on bike or foot) and a Generic Chapter master w. Powerfist are better than Lelith in a 1 on 1 fight, and are *also* just as good at killing mobs.

I'm not going to bother going over the math that you consistently rounded out of Lelith's favor and into the WB/CMs favor. What I will say is you seem to forgetting some other aspects of this fight. Like, I don't know, them hitting you? The aspects that Leliths Shardnet, superior WS, superior I, FNP, 3++, etc will give her a clear advantage in?

Both also cost less than her.

You keep hammering that. I already said that she costs maybe 10 to 15 points more then she should. I'm not the on on this thread who suggested she should cost 100 points. Considering you just showed shes quite similiar in offfensive output to two 150 point units, I think you have proven my point. Thanks.

Even within the DE codex she is an inferior option, as I could take an Archon who costs less than her and would be better able to win the challenges and just as able to inflict damage on hordes.

Except the last part is wrong, and he also would be as survivable.

I might almost forgive them if they just borked her up compared to other codices - that happens. But within her own codex she is inferior at both what she purportedly does, and also at what she is actually capable of doing.than other HQ options in the same codex who cost *less* than she does.

Except that's not even remotely true.

Yes, she is over priced.

Yeah, by 10 or 15 points.

The prices I suggested for her (100 is good, 110 is acceptable, 120 is overpriced) holds with other options from the DE codex and how they are priced and how they would do in similar battles.

You're really still sticking to that? Wow. This conversation is relatively pointless then.

Those are, in my opinion, legit fair cost suggestions for Lelith as she stands and with all her rules and functions in effect. At 175 she is a terrible unit who was badly designed. You just need to look at other point costs in her own codex to see this, and it has nothing to do with making her overpowered.

She's a tad overcosted, but far from terrible. Suggesting she should be ~110 points is a complete and total joke.

Again, there are several things she has (or has access too, and should have when it's relevant) that you completely ignored with your analysis. Fleet, FNP, FC, Fearless, Shardnets, 3++, 9 WS (mostly relevant in that your "mooks" will only be hitting her on a 5+), 9 I (because, believe it or not, there are actually ways to reduce units to 1 or 2 wounds before you charge them, and then she charges and kills them, and they die, and, well, that's about it. They're dead.)

But yeah, when you selectively ignore certain things about her you can make a real good case that she's "terrible" and stuff. But when you actually appraise the unit rationally you can quite easily see that she's pretty good, if a tad over costed. 150 to 160 points sounds pretty reasonable.

This is why I stopped posting on Dakka. The absurd "lets paint the picture so it completely suits my argument and pretend anything that doesn't fit my in a vacuum numbers won't actually come into play" rhetorical tendencies are exhausting and time consuming to argue against.



Her best strength is taking out MSU troops. She does this incredibly efficiently, as she can remove who selections, by herself, without suffering any wounds in return. This was perfect for 5th when that was a big thing, less ideal for 6th, but will likely becoming popular again shortly. In short, she's quite viable in the correct meta. I've been using her since the codex dropped and have never been disappointed with her performance.

I disagree with you that math averages is a bad way to assess a unit's functionality.

I disagree with you that h2h HQs are unusual.

I disagree with your percentages of Lelith winning the combat versus a Chapter Master. It's a bit silly to say after you mocked my math skills, natch, but I do disagree with your math. Even that you are willing to admit a 60/40 against her says something though - that means that when they fight you should expect her to lose, which is, at the most basic, my point. I just don't think her odds are as good as you'd like to suggest.

I disagree with you that "no one" fields the Warboss with a Klaw, or a Chapter Master with a Str 6+ weapon, which is all that is needed for these examples.

I will agree with you that I didn't give Lelith Furious Charge, it would be very expensive/difficult for her to start with that. I suppose if we want to talk about her paired up with Wracks or Grots and a Haem handeler and giving up her fleet would do it...but that's a pretty iffy deathstar.

I disagree with you about me rounding against Lelith in the examples against mobs - I did not, I rounded in favor of her.

I disagree with you that an Archon is somehow inferior to Lelith at killing mobs or ICs while costing less. It is an easy build to do, and is provable superior (admittedly, by using math averages) to show it is so.

I did not ignore FNP nor Fleet. Her access to FC and Fearless is not a given. I did not ignore Shardnets (I included them, and even had a poster ask about the wonky numbers and had to note that I had included them - they are in there) Her 3++ was accounted for, and a 3++ versus mooks is also known as 'power armor'. Her 9 WS was accounted for, that's how she's able to hit on 3+ versus her opponents, and why they need $+ or 5+ to hit her. If it has some other effect I'm unaware, but this overlooks from your end that a lot of her competition will maybe be hit on a 4+, but wounded on a 5+, which mathematically (sorry, using that again) equates to the same result.

I agree that if you soften up a unit first she is perhaps better able to deal with them.
I also didn't take into account an enemy's ability to drop a Raider and blow Lelith and her unit off the board in a second, which is certainly at least as easy as her doing it to an enemy. I will admit I don't know how to compute those chances - if you have a suggestion I'll certainly work it over.

I will agree that Lelith's best tactic is taking out MSU.
I will agree she does it very, very well.
I will agree it was better in 5th and less so in 6th, though I'm not sure why 7th would make it more popular as I don't think the vehicle damage charts changed the situation that much.
I will agree that in a specific meta she would be more viable than other metas.
I will agree you are not disappointed by her.

I disagree that her being a champ at dealing with MSU justifies her cost when multiple other units I have access to that cost less than she does can accomplish the same.

She is designed to kill basic troops not characters, why everyone is getting so irate about it I don't know.

Character killing characters from the Dark Eldar codex realistically are limited. It would be better to just throw 5 Incubi at them than waste a character.

I also am of the opinion that she actually doesn't kill basic troops that effectively either. I'll agree that's what her design says she's good at - but she's not really that good at it.

I could take an Archon with a Shadowfield, a venom blade,a huskblade, a PGL, and a soul trap - he would cost less than Lelith and be better at killing mooks and also better at killing characters in or out of challenges.

Realistically you need her to have 2 pain tokens to be of any major use. She needs Furious charge and FNP to be truly effective and to be fair that isn't too hard to get.

Oops, I might... have missed that she has Poison (2)... that changes my assessment, slightly.

 RancidHate wrote:
Oops, I might... have missed that she has Poison (2)... that changes my assessment, slightly.

Lelith? Isn't that, like, only in a LotD codex mission?

Shingen wrote:
Realistically you need her to have 2 pain tokens to be of any major use. She needs Furious charge and FNP to be truly effective and to be fair that isn't too hard to get.

Well, it tends to obligate starting her in a squad of Wracks or Grots, of fielding a silly amount of Haems, or hoping for a specific drug roll and pairing her with wyches.

She is not in a good place paired with Wyches or Wracks, really. She does okay with Grots, but the only drawback there is that she surrenders Fleet for the gain of FC.

She only has poison in the LotD special mission.
If she had that as a base rule I might consider her current cost fair, as that would be a big shift in her drawbacks.

If Lelith had 2+ Poison in her original codex entry, she'd at least be an effective glass cannon, with lots of well-wounding attacks at high Init that ignore armor saves. Her problem is that she doesn't have that, so she's stuck wounding on 5+ or worse most of the time, which takes her offensive power way down. As it is, she's more of a glass flyswatter: she'll do her job against weak targets, but only if you don't mess up and hit something else accidentally.

It also doesn't help that she's actually conflicted in what she wants to be doing: her defenses are made for character-killing, but her offenses are made for mob-killing. A 3++ is not useful against a lot of crappy attacks (we all know how power armor falls to weight of fire). She wants to be tanking the occasional PF hit and not get ID'd from it. But her offensive output is designed to kill scrubs, instead of characters that actually survive in melee combat like Chapter Master Smash-face (or whatever his name is now).