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Stick him on a bike?

 azreal13 wrote:
Stick him on a bike?

Can techmarines even take bikes anymore?

They can in dark angels, thats for sure as well as space wolves, and I think master of the forge can in normal lists, but other than that not sure.

If only there were a way to grant IWND to a Knight... /lesigh

 Enigwolf wrote:
If only there were a way to grant IWND to a Knight... /lesigh

Cast endurance on it.

Not any more.

Eternal Warrior, FNP and Relentless.

I agree, knights are going to be great in 7th. However, I faced my first 7th ed knight last night. It came in from reserves on turn 4... he rolled that bad. The battle cannon killed one bike, put a wound on an attack bike in a different squad and put a wound on Sammuel, who made a FNP roll to ignore it. I then dropped an orbital bombardment on the rear of it (only glancing), shot 2 grav guns at it (doing one more hull) and then hit it with a multi-melta that ended up killing it after several "6s" were rolled. I then rolled a 1 and no scatter on the explosion... Doing nothing to my 4 bikes in the outer blast zones.

Kinda felt bad for the other player. 300 some points that truly had zero impact on the game (other than more VP for me).

He reserved it, he got what he deserved!

Yea not sure why you'd reserve a knight. Thats wasted killing potential

Knights are purely 40K on easy mode.

Yeah, it's not like 100 odd points of basic troops from at least two factions can down them in a turn is it?

Knights are quickmode, not easy mode as they make your turns and game play quicker!! I was playing three knights in a tournament and most of my games were over in about an hour to 1.5 hours at 1850

 azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, it's not like 100 odd points of basic troops from at least two factions can down them in a turn is it?

Oh really? Pray tell.

Wyches and Fire Warriors both have access to haywire, which cares not for armour, and the IK has no ++ in assaut, a 10 man unit of either needs only roll slightly over average to do 6 HPs in one round of assault

I suppose you could also throw Necron Warriors in that arena too, although slightly less foolproof. Still, a 20 man squad in RF range will leave a mark.

My point is that IK are only "Easy Mode" against poor opposition, nearly every faction has units that can deal with them that feature regularly in most lists.

Thats not even including haywiretecks, firedragons getting to battle focus after you have selected your facing for the shield, melta vets being able to get on multiple facings easily. Meganoobs in CC, so on and so forth.

How are people feeling about the Knight errant in 7th edition?

In 6th the paladin was the clearly superior choice, having literally double the firepower vs infantry targets, whilst still threatening transports with its 2 battlecannon shots a turn.

Now with the changes to the damage table and the likely rise in transports have errants become more justifiable? Their ap1 melta makes them able to explode vehicles, unlike the paladin.
Or did the change make the paladin even more of a staple, as it is better for stripping hull points.

Errant is good because it breaks armor 2 as well as has a chance to explode vehicles.

Also what made the errant the superior choice mainly was the extra stubber shots to ground FMC. However now that they have to spend a turn on the ground before charging that need is not as necessary anymore.

The Errant was always the superior choice. The battle cannon and extra Stubber on a Paladin encouraged poor tactics, while the shorter ranged Melta on the Errant encourages a more aggressive play style. Aggressive play is key to Knight survivability, while a more conservative play style leads to getting out maneuvered. Paladins are still awesome; they just need to played awesomely!

SJ

 azreal13 wrote:
Wyches and Fire Warriors both have access to haywire, which cares not for armour, and the IK has no ++ in assaut, a 10 man unit of either needs only roll slightly over average to do 6 HPs in one round of assault

Of course getting the firewarriors or wyches(far better at this) into combat with the knight is difficult. 6" move vs 12" move.
A raider would help a lot, but 10 wyches + haywire + Raider is 200 points, not 100. With the heavy stubber and the BC/Melta it isnt like the knight cant prevent the raiders from ever seeing combat.

For AA, why not just use a Firestorm Redoubt?

 azreal13 wrote:
Wyches and Fire Warriors both have access to haywire, which cares not for armour, and the IK has no ++ in assaut, a 10 man unit of either needs only roll slightly over average to do 6 HPs in one round of assault

I suppose you could also throw Necron Warriors in that arena too, although slightly less foolproof. Still, a 20 man squad in RF range will leave a mark.

My point is that IK are only "Easy Mode" against poor opposition, nearly every faction has units that can deal with them that feature regularly in most lists.

I'd like to know how either of these things are ever going to get into combat with a Knight. 20 man blobs of necron warriors, even in rapid-fire range with a full 20 man squad (which is never going to happen) only remove 2 hull points on average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
Thats not even including haywiretecks, firedragons getting to battle focus after you have selected your facing for the shield, melta vets being able to get on multiple facings easily. Meganoobs in CC, so on and so forth.

Firedragons and melta vets have been math-hammered pretty extensively on this. 10 melta-vets, even with every single hit penning, are not going to bring down a Knight. Plus, it is very very easy for a Knight to stay away from MegaNobz.

After getting a couple 7th games under my belt with the Paladin, I might switch it to an Errant due to interactions with new vehicle rules. Sure 2 shots and killing MEQ in droves is nice, but still at most can do 2 hps to vehicles unless i get lucky rolling 2 6's for immobilize.

 herpguy wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Wyches and Fire Warriors both have access to haywire, which cares not for armour, and the IK has no ++ in assaut, a 10 man unit of either needs only roll slightly over average to do 6 HPs in one round of assault

I suppose you could also throw Necron Warriors in that arena too, although slightly less foolproof. Still, a 20 man squad in RF range will leave a mark.

My point is that IK are only "Easy Mode" against poor opposition, nearly every faction has units that can deal with them that feature regularly in most lists.

I'd like to know how either of these things are ever going to get into combat with a Knight. 20 man blobs of necron warriors, even in rapid-fire range with a full 20 man squad (which is never going to happen) only remove 2 hull points on average.

Firstly, that's not the point. The point was "Knights are easy" my counterpoint was "actually, they can be killed by some very cheap and readily available options."

Secondly, have you seen Raiders? Boost it into a Knights face turn one, maybe lance it in the face if you don't have to flat out to get close, maybe take a bonus HP off it.

The Knight then can either ignore or attack the Raider. If it attacks, and destroys, the Raider, then the Wyches are free to assault from the wrecked Raider the following turn, and will be able to position themselves in such a way that they need a short assault roll, and have fleet. If it ignores, then the same thing happens but with another lance shot up the jacksie.

Of course, you could waste another Knights firepower on eradicating the Wyches, but then you've just wasted ~800 points worth of units to eliminate ~200, and have the rest of the army to think about too.

Then the Wyches assault.

Of course, the whole scenario would be different for different units, Firewarriors probably wouldn't assault, but may be particularly dug in on a vital objective, where you didn't have the time needed to shoot them off.

Only in Internet based Hypothetichammer do these units not make it into assault.

That is why one of the things I have been saying for a long time is that the knights are only as good as the units that are supporting it.

So when I was running my three knights I was supporting it with space marines, or blob IG. Both of which served to protect them quite well.

[quote=herpguy 598669 6927734
Firedragons and melta vets have been math-hammered pretty extensively on this. 10 melta-vets, even with every single hit penning, are not going to bring down a Knight. Plus, it is very very easy for a Knight to stay away from MegaNobz.

How are people feeling about lancers in normal games of 40k

They are much more single target orientated, but truely excel at beasting down the toughest single models the opponent can throw at you. Make it the warlord for the free WS5 and better save and there are very few things that will stand against it (invisibility aside).

Overall I prefer the standard knights aesthetically. And the lancer is getting ridiculously tall for a standard game of 40k imo.

Still, it would be nice to have a knight that can actually deal with a wraithknight toe-to-toe, without losing a ton of hull points (Or exploding).

Col. Dash wrote:

herpguy 598669 6927734 wrote:
Firedragons and melta vets have been math-hammered pretty extensively on this. 10 melta-vets, even with every single hit penning, are not going to bring down a Knight. Plus, it is very very easy for a Knight to stay away from MegaNobz.

I beg to differ on this. My 6 man melta support squad(six basic marines with melta guns) has killed or mostly killed a knight in a single round of combat every single time they have encountered one. Note they also have not survived any encounter with one either. Drop them in a drop pod to the side he moves his shield over leaving the knight open for shots from other angles. Last game I took 5 hull points with my meltas despite his shield and a Sicarian got a lascannon shot in from across the board once again blasting past the techmarines field. Resultant explosion killed the techmarine and his servitor entourage, the melta squad, the knight obviously and a dev squad hiding in the bolstered ruin.

And yes techmarines can ride bikes to keep up with the knight providing their 4++ even in close combat.

Haywire wyches also do a great job while dying in the process.

Mathhammer isn't reality. In reality, for example, you seem to have had very good dice rolls. On average across the board (which is what mathhammer really is) they're not an optimal counter.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
How are people feeling about lancers in normal games of 40k

They are much more single target orientated, but truely excel at beasting down the toughest single models the opponent can throw at you. Make it the warlord for the free WS5 and better save and there are very few things that will stand against it (invisibility aside).

Overall I prefer the standard knights aesthetically. And the lancer is getting ridiculously tall for a standard game of 40k imo.

Still, it would be nice to have a knight that can actually deal with a wraithknight toe-to-toe, without losing a ton of hull points (Or exploding).

I'm planning on adding one eventually, purely because it is the only (vaguely) viable AA you can run without allies. The fact it is good at other roles is just icing.

It's a shame that the lancer doesn't have a heavy stubber though. That way it could provide snap shots at air targets, but still charge ground units in the same turn.

Has FW said anything regarding the release times for other lancer weapons?

What would be some bad matchups for knights in regular 7th edition (no LoW)?

How do you think they will fare against the popularly believed top armies of 7th? Those armies being Eldar, GKs, Necrons, IG, OS spam?