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Sure their Chainswords are a bit less hurty (unless they roll a six) but they're substantially more durable now and the threat from vector strikers and the majority of monstrous creatures is now a non-issue.
They're now very much brick units in that you can reliably throw them at a problem and expect that problem to go away.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Certainly better, I think. The chance of an AP1 hit causing an explosion has dropped, the chance an AP2 hit doing the same has halved. So survivability against the likes of lascannon/melta/fusion ect has increased a lot. D weapons took a hit, but that applies against them as well, so other enemy SHVs are slightly less of a threat.
Tactically, I find it best to be aggressive, force it down your opponent's throat and go for the biggest, hardest targets with the guns and the S: D chainsword. Use the stubber to set up a secondary charge target so you can really hurt 2 units a turn.
In terms of positioning, try and set it up and move it so that the AV13 front faces one major threat (preferably the higher-strength one) and the 4++ Void Shield faces a second. Layering both leaves you vulnerable to flanking attacks (but remember you don't need to choose the shield facing until the start of their shoot phase).
The issue remains that a pure Knight army will struggle with anything that causes a lot of snap shots.
A (pricey) Cerastus Lancer can help, 6 S7 AP2 shots solves a lot of problems, but I think they need something allied in to provide air support.
I'm looking at Guard, Inquisition or Sisters at the moment, either to man an quad gun ADL or a Hydra in the case of Guard, not decided yet.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
They are really good this edition. The change to the damage table was nice but the objective secured for the imperial knight main detachment is what makes them truly nasty. Their inability to contest was what lost them games before.
I would definitely recommend some allies though as an all knight list is just horribly unbalanced and so either stomps the opponent or gets stomped with little middle ground.
I ran some Knight-Killing MathHammer a while back, so I'm going to update it with the new "Explodes! on 7+" damage table. Note I'm using an Adepta Sororitas force, which is about as Knight-murderiffic as you can get with lots of S:8 AP1 -- the new damage table makes a significant difference but not a critical one, whereas weapons with AP:3 or worse aren't going to cause explosions at all now:
So how do they fare in the near-optimal scenario where everyone with melta gets into melta range and fires at once?
(Calculations spoilered below; please point out any errors! Edited to fix error -- the real result is actually nastier to the Knight by half a glance. Many thanks to Mavnas for catching my mistake.)
Spoiler:
1. What shoots? The melta bombs don't come into play in shooting, obviously, and the Immolator can't move up with the Dominions, fire its multi-melta, and fire its hunter-killer missile, so only the Exorcist gets to fire its HK. Assume everything else gets to fire.
BZZAP BZZAP WHOOOSH WHOOSH WHOOSH BZZAP! (Uh, those are melta beam and missile launch sound effects, m'kay?)
2. What hits? That's 1d6 S:8 AP:1 but-not-melta Exorcist shots, also at BS4. Average of 3.5 shots, 67% hit = 2.345 hits.
Also the Exorcist fires its hunter-killer missile, because why the feth not, so that's 0.67 hits at S:8 but only AP:3.
So the Exorcist averages 3.015 S:8 hits, though not all will get the damage table bonus for AP:1.
The Dominions & co. give you 7 S:8 AP:1 melta shots: one at BS:3 w/ a 50% chance of hitting (the priest), 5 at BS:4 with a 67% chance (Dominions), and one twin-linked BS4 with an 89% chance of hitting (the Immolator). That gives you an average of 0.5 + 3.35 + 0.89= 4.74 hits.
Clearly the melta weapons are the much bigger threat, so any sane Knight player would have his Ion Shield pointed towards them, with a 50% chance to nullify a hit: We're down to 2.37 melta hits.
Assume the Exorcists' missiles are coming in more than 90 degrees offset from the Dominion squad, so they don't get cut down by the Ion Shield.
3. What hurts? But let's not get too confident about getting side angles, so let's say all our hits impact the front armour, also it's simpler this way and I'm tired: AV13.
The Exorcist:
S:8 glances AV:13 on a roll of 5 and penetrates on a roll of 6, each of which happens 16.7 percent of the time: with 3.015 hits, that's average of 0.5 glances and 0.5 penetrations.
(Let's assume it's the HK missile that doesn't penetrate so we don't have to worry about different AP values having different damage table modifiers; yes, that slightly favors the Exorcist here, but then we're also assuming it didn't get the side armour).
The meltas:
S:8 melta glances AV:13 only 11.1 percent of the time, because you're rolling 2d6. 2.37 hits yield a whopping 0.26 glances.
S:8 melta penetrates AV:13 on a 6+, which on 2d6 happens 72% of the time. (Yay, melta). 2.37 hits yield 1.7 penetrations.
So we're at a total of 0.76 glances and 2.2 penetrations. That's 2.96 hull points stripped right there -- the Knight, on average, is halfway to dead.
Then we get to roll twice on the vehicle damage table -- but only a "6: explodes!" result matters (boo, superheavy vehicles). But we get a +2 modifier (yay, AP1), which means a 4, 5, or a 6 actually get an "explodes" result: That's 50%33%of the time.
2.2 penetrations * 0.33 Explodes * 2 HP lost per Explosion (on average) = 1.45 additional HP on average.
Total average damage: 4.41 HP[/s]
So on average, we Explode! once, and do an additional 1D3 damage: [s]1.5 [i]2 hull points. Total damage: 4.464.96HP.[/s]
The average result? Your Knight is still fighting at full capacity -- so we can expect some of our shooters to go away violently the next turn -- but it's down to 1 or 2 HP.
only one Hull point 1 or 2 HP remaining, more likely 1, and not long for this world.
Obviously getting all this melta within 6" of a Knight takes tactical skill (or an inept opponent) and decent luck. But this scenario also assumes the Sisters player only goes after the Knight with an equal points value force, not concentrating fire at all, which requires tactical ineptitude (or an adept opponent) and poor luck.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Yeah, it's not like they can't kick practically every OS eligible unit off an objective in a turn or two!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
azreal13 wrote: The issue remains that a pure Knight army will struggle with anything that causes a lot of snap shots.
A (pricey) Cerastus Lancer can help, 6 S7 AP2 shots solves a lot of problems, but I think they need something allied in to provide air support.
I'm looking at Guard, Inquisition or Sisters at the moment, either to man an quad gun ADL or a Hydra in the case of Guard, not decided yet.
I'd actually wager C:SM here, Their flyers are much better for their price depending on what you want (For cheap AA and AI [Anti-Infantry] the Storm Talon can work and the Storm Raven if you want some AI and AT as well). Barring that you also have cheap Hunters or Stalkers.
I actually started a separate thread about it, got some good responses, but the thought processes it triggered led me to settle on a 5 man Tac Squad, with a lvl 2 Librarian in a MM/AC Stormraven.
With the three Knights I will have, that comes in at 1495, gives me a cheap additional unit I can drop on an objective, some psychic ability and a platform that can conceivably take down two fliers a turn and won't be useless should I not encounter any/eliminate them all.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Thanks, I can see that would be better, but right now, I have a 5 Man Tac Squad and a Stormraven built and painted and ready to play, actually I could double up on that if I wanted/needed to, and I ordered a PA Librarian with Force Sword yesterday.
I don't doubt the GK option would be stronger, but like I said, I'm not concerned with the absolute bestest option, and in this case convenience and economy win out!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I played a game this past weekend against an invisible draigowing at 1500. Possibly not the strongest list, but I learned a few lessons.
I had 2 errants and 2 paladins.
Opponent's list:
Draigo (some useless santic powers)
Coteaz (invisibility and some meaningless telepathy power)
10 fully kitted pallies with all hammers
1 solodin
2x 3 henchmen (2 acolytes+1 psyker)
1 dreadknight
We did standard dawn of war, 4 objectives (eternal war mission). I won with the knights, learned some good lessons along the way:
1. You beat deathstars the way everyone else does: stay away. With 12" move you can keep them at a distance if you can't crush them. Even though I charged the draigo star for fun at the end and stomped out draigo, the apothecary/banner and the warding stave, the invisible paladin star still killed 2 knights without much trouble. Choose your battles wisely, the nerd to D-weapons means you're not as good at CC as you used to be.
2. A dreadknight killed one of my knights when he was being double-teamed by them. Once again, D-weapons aren't what they used to be (I missed alot too, and his dice were hot on those invul saves).
3. Psychic powers aren't too bad. There are very few psychic powers that can hurt knights, but many that can make it harder for them to kill stuff. Be flexible, and selective with your targets and your limited deny dice.
4. You're not objective secured, so you can't steal objectives. However, you can blow cheap scoring units off the table pretty easily. The only way to win an objectives game is to make sure that # of objectives/2># of units in their army, and that you have more units than them.
As far as ratio of errants to paladins, I like roughly 50-50, at 1850 I'd go with 3 paladins and 2 errants.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
I'd actually favour two Paladins to one Errant. The Errant is undoubtedly more killy, but the Paladin is a better generalist and isn't compelled to close if it doesn't want to or suffer a loss in effectiveness.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will be adding a Lancer by Christmas regardless!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/10 00:26:10
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Fluff question for those of you more involved in the Knights background; what (if any) support forces would a household use? Or is an army of 3-5 Knights totally as per their field doctrine?
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greyknight12 wrote: A dreadknight killed one of my knights when he was being double-teamed by them. Once again, D-weapons aren't what they used to be (I missed alot too, and his dice were hot on those invul saves).
So it made a major difference that you can now take invulnerable saves against D weapons?
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
greyknight12 wrote: A dreadknight killed one of my knights when he was being double-teamed by them. Once again, D-weapons aren't what they used to be (I missed alot too, and his dice were hot on those invul saves).
So it made a major difference that you can now take invulnerable saves against D weapons?
Well he did say his opponent rolled hot on the saves. Must have since 2-3x results of a 2-5 on the chart (d3 wounds) is enough to kill the dreadknight and apparently he was being double teamed by the imperial knights.
I still see them used with good success allied with DA. Being able to have a tech marine bolster terrain they are standing in or provide a all around 4++ invul save is pretty nice. Not to mention being able to repair the thing. Of course when it blows up, you just lost a fairly expensive techmarine as well.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
Blacksails wrote: Fluff question for those of you more involved in the Knights background; what (if any) support forces would a household use? Or is an army of 3-5 Knights totally as per their field doctrine?
probably bare bones IG.
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If they use the same chassis, it isn't beyond reason that they might launch them separately like they do with Dread Weapon Arms.
Not based on any ITK info, just a thought.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I hope we get an AA Knight. Did such a beast exist in Epic?
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Not to my recollection, but then, an IK rocking a VMB is pretty good AA, even if it doesn't have Skyfire!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
As for household forces aside from knights, they dont have any except for techs(and thats an assumption). They spend most of their time on agriworlds dueling with exodite knights. Perhaps some IG infantry men-at-arms but I doubt they would bring them with them on the rare times they leave their worlds since someone needs to guard from exodites. Note I am going with older fluff and havent read the new codex.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
Some D-weapon math:
Against comparable WS, you'll be hitting on 4s. That means 1.5 hits if you don't charge, 2 if you do.
If you don't charge: 0.25 "no wounds" results, 0.25 "no saves" results, and 1 "d3 wounds" result. The d3 averages to 2 wounds, which will be reduced to 1.33 wounds by a 5+ Invulnerable save.
If we assume that all attacks that hit roll a 2-5, then we deal 4 wounds, reduced down to 2.67 by a 5++. Better invul saves will result in still fewer wounds being taken.
This doesn't factor in stomp attacks of course, but against MCs and tooled up characters those are just hoping for 6s as well.
D-weapons took 2 nerfs: changing the saves that could be taken against them, and reducing the number of wounds that a 2-5 result dealt. They are still effective, but their limitations do need to be heeded before you charge blindly into melee. My fight against the dreadknight was statistically a fluke, but things like that are a possibility.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
I have been playing nothing but asymmetrical missions but I never understood the charging at your opponent(outside of tau tooled up to kill knights). It always seemed to make more sense to sit on the objectives and play defensive, score the points while shooting battle cannons.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Leth wrote: I have been playing nothing but asymmetrical missions but I never understood the charging at your opponent(outside of tau tooled up to kill knights). It always seemed to make more sense to sit on the objectives and play defensive, score the points while shooting battle cannons.
Hiding in CC is a time honored tradition, made more relevent by our death explosion. Knights are designed to played aggressively, with minimal camping.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Col. Dash wrote:I still see them used with good success allied with DA. Being able to have a tech marine bolster terrain they are standing in or provide a all around 4++ invul save is pretty nice. Not to mention being able to repair the thing. Of course when it blows up, you just lost a fairly expensive techmarine as well.
While this has merit for a stand-off and shoot playstyle, your Knight is typically going to be moving around a lot. It'll either have to stand still or your Techmarine will need to play catch-up a lot.
Blacksails wrote: Fluff question for those of you more involved in the Knights background; what (if any) support forces would a household use? Or is an army of 3-5 Knights totally as per their field doctrine?
None. Knights are usually the supporting force, whether they're operating in support of Titan Legions or traditional Imperial forces (AdMech or otherwise).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/11 19:21:32
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