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[Necron] New Deathstar rising: Sentry-Star. How does it fare against other competitive D.Stars?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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BONUS: what is your take on beam weapons interacting with invisible units?
invisible units can not be targeted by beam weapons but if the beam extends past the target non-invisible unit and ends up touching models that are invisible, that unit also takes a hit (much like how blast templates can scatter and hit invisible units)
beam weapons target points on the table, not units, so invisibility can not prevent them from getting hit if the beam's line passes over them
all beams, blast templates, and flame templates can not hit invisible units because if it hits them, they become the weapons new target, regardless of what the weapon's initial chosen target was, and no templates can target invisible units
too confusing to tell one way or the other, GW and FW need to FAQ this ASAP

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Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





JohnnyCage wrote:
I'll throw in my 2 cents having actually ran a very similar combination in 6th ed a couple of times.

I ran 3 Deathray pylons, Obyron and Zandrekh (giving the unit extra oomph or defenciveness in the form of stealth).

While the unit looks very impressive on paper it doesn't match up on the tabletop.
Good opponents immediately positioned their valuable units so that it was impossible to hit all their important stuff at the same time (or hit them enough if I targeted each pylon separately). Clever opponents also spread out, limiting the places where you can safely deepstrike.

Wraithknights and riptides laugh at this deathstar, as do greater daemons - you'll need to dedicate all your pylons to kill one of these creatures and you'll still probably not actually manage it.

The main problem is that the pylons will not actually do that much damage turn one unless the opponent has no clue what he's doing and bunches everything up.


On survivability.
Vs shooting T7 is nice, but remember that you are bunched up. Plasma blasts wreck your day. Also you'll have a total of 15 wounds, 9 of which are 3+, 1 is 2+ and 1 is 2+/3++. You CANNOT position your overlord so that they'll eat all the lascannon equivalent stuff thrown your way. Also anything S7 will pile wounds on you quickly (tesla, serpent shields).

The worst part is that unlike other deathstars as soon as you take 3 wounds you lose a LOT of your effectiveness (either a char or a pylon). If i remember correctly characters cannot pass wounds onto artillery, so that limits wound allocation shenanigans (might be wrong here, please take with salt).

In assault you are toast vs anything with proper assault capabilities. You'll only have 6 T5 wounds with 2+ and 2+/3++.

As I said before - the moment you start losing pylons (which will be the turn after you DS into the middle of enemy forces) you will start losing effectiveness very quickly.

My experience is that while its a good build in theory it doesn't work that well against a competent player in game.

But don't take my word for it, go take the build out for a game or two and see how it works for you.

Excellent run down of its failing points.
How would you rank it against the other 800-ish point options I listed before?
(Double D.Lord Wraith-Star, 5x5 Warriors in Nightscythes, Transcendent C'tan with double Withering & Tran-Stride)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/01 10:45:27


 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 skoffs wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
They need to FAQ it so that Deathray weapons can not hit units engaged in combat!
(at the moment there is nothing preventing them from doing so (much like blast templates are able to scatter and hit units in combat) except for the good sportsmanship of their controller).
Bonus points for sacrificing your own models to increase the number of hits generated by the FDR o/
Well, we know won't be getting the good sportsmanship award in YOUR tournament...


It boils down to whether you play RAW or not. If you play RAI in this case, you'd have to play RAI in ALL cases that ever occur - and that has been turned down by our meta for pretty obvious reasons, mostly because of endless discussions on what RAI actually is in a lot of cases.

...and really, when facing those stupid re-rollable 2++, I'm barking up all kind of overpowered stuff I can get my hands on.

The thing with pylons is that they drastically change the way you would normally play a Necron army and against a prepared opponent you're up against a wall. The key to effectively using SP is to get as many models under your line as you possibly can, be it friendly or enemy models. Lists that are light on models will dramatically lower your unit's efficiency and you need to use really uncommon workarounds, e.g. deepstriking scarabs to increase the amount of hits. It's really awkward.

I don't think they make a good TAC list, Bargelord + Destroyer Lord seems to be the safer option to me. But yeah, against unprepared enemies, you will have won at the end of turn 2.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/07/01 11:01:38


   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Deepstrike's not safe.
There are still lots of stupid 2++ rerollable guyz flying around in every competitive tournament.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





 koooaei wrote:
Deepstrike's not safe.
There are still lots of stupid 2++ rerollable guyz flying around in every competitive tournament.

For this, deepstrike should be fine if you can find a spot within 24" of your intended victim (you don't want to get too close, so it's normally not that hard).

If the guys with the rerollable 2++ are single model unit MCs, yeah, not so great (only capable of putting out 6 S10 AP1 hits on them).
But against anything with 3 models or more in the unit (eg. Seer Council), this thing will be devastating (so long as you can get the line to pass over at least three models, that will be 18 S10 AP1 hits. Increases by 6 hits for every additional model the line can touch. It might not wipe them out, but it will most probably cause them significant hurt).

 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Belac Ynnead wrote:
 necron99 wrote:
Does anyone know of a site that has paper plans like they have for the warhound? I have an escalation tournament in in three weeks and wouldn't mind trying this out. My buddy is already running a transcendent C'Tan. I don't want to be a me too army even though I play necrons pretty much all the time.


But if you just run this list aren't you also a "me too army?" Not that there's anything wrong with that!


Uh, no I think it's ok to have multiple armies in the same tournament (otherwise it would be a crazy small tournament). I'm just saying I think it would look bad if two people from the same club showed up with Transcendent C'Tans.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

JohnnyCage wrote:
I'll throw in my 2 cents having actually ran a very similar combination in 6th ed a couple of times.

I ran 3 Deathray pylons, Obyron and Zandrekh (giving the unit extra oomph or defenciveness in the form of stealth).

While the unit looks very impressive on paper it doesn't match up on the tabletop.
Good opponents immediately positioned their valuable units so that it was impossible to hit all their important stuff at the same time (or hit them enough if I targeted each pylon separately). Clever opponents also spread out, limiting the places where you can safely deepstrike.

Wraithknights and riptides laugh at this deathstar, as do greater daemons - you'll need to dedicate all your pylons to kill one of these creatures and you'll still probably not actually manage it.

The main problem is that the pylons will not actually do that much damage turn one unless the opponent has no clue what he's doing and bunches everything up.


On survivability.
Vs shooting T7 is nice, but remember that you are bunched up. Plasma blasts wreck your day. Also you'll have a total of 15 wounds, 9 of which are 3+, 1 is 2+ and 1 is 2+/3++. You CANNOT position your overlord so that they'll eat all the lascannon equivalent stuff thrown your way. Also anything S7 will pile wounds on you quickly (tesla, serpent shields).

The worst part is that unlike other deathstars as soon as you take 3 wounds you lose a LOT of your effectiveness (either a char or a pylon). If i remember correctly characters cannot pass wounds onto artillery, so that limits wound allocation shenanigans (might be wrong here, please take with salt).

In assault you are toast vs anything with proper assault capabilities. You'll only have 6 T5 wounds with 2+ and 2+/3++.

As I said before - the moment you start losing pylons (which will be the turn after you DS into the middle of enemy forces) you will start losing effectiveness very quickly.

My experience is that while its a good build in theory it doesn't work that well against a competent player in game.

But don't take my word for it, go take the build out for a game or two and see how it works for you.

Thanks for sharing.

No doubt good players will find a way to play against it, just as they have done against the seer council, MSU, psychic-heavy armies, Imperial Knights and whatever else was thrown their way. Good players adapt to new power builds quite easily and the sentry....uh oh, wait for it, you know that term is coming back....sentry-"star" isn't without its points of failures.

However, the sentry-star will still be quite effective due to the shift in the meta to MSU parking lots. It's a strong build but no stronger than any of the other high-level tournament builds. It is also a deathstar build and there are many ways to fight against deathstar armies.




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JohnnyCage wrote:
I'll throw in my 2 cents having actually ran a very similar combination in 6th ed a couple of times.

I ran 3 Deathray pylons, Obyron and Zandrekh (giving the unit extra oomph or defenciveness in the form of stealth).

While the unit looks very impressive on paper it doesn't match up on the tabletop.
Good opponents immediately positioned their valuable units so that it was impossible to hit all their important stuff at the same time (or hit them enough if I targeted each pylon separately). Clever opponents also spread out, limiting the places where you can safely deepstrike.

Wraithknights and riptides laugh at this deathstar, as do greater daemons - you'll need to dedicate all your pylons to kill one of these creatures and you'll still probably not actually manage it.

The main problem is that the pylons will not actually do that much damage turn one unless the opponent has no clue what he's doing and bunches everything up.


On survivability.
Vs shooting T7 is nice, but remember that you are bunched up. Plasma blasts wreck your day. Also you'll have a total of 15 wounds, 9 of which are 3+, 1 is 2+ and 1 is 2+/3++. You CANNOT position your overlord so that they'll eat all the lascannon equivalent stuff thrown your way. Also anything S7 will pile wounds on you quickly (tesla, serpent shields).

The worst part is that unlike other deathstars as soon as you take 3 wounds you lose a LOT of your effectiveness (either a char or a pylon). If i remember correctly characters cannot pass wounds onto artillery, so that limits wound allocation shenanigans (might be wrong here, please take with salt).

In assault you are toast vs anything with proper assault capabilities. You'll only have 6 T5 wounds with 2+ and 2+/3++.

As I said before - the moment you start losing pylons (which will be the turn after you DS into the middle of enemy forces) you will start losing effectiveness very quickly.

My experience is that while its a good build in theory it doesn't work that well against a competent player in game.

But don't take my word for it, go take the build out for a game or two and see how it works for you.


In 6th edition, you weren't able to move or deep strike and shoot in the same turn. In 7th edition you can if you have an overlord with phaeron joined to the pylons. Seems like a big change since you were testing it out. Or were you playing it wrong back then?
   
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 skoffs wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Deepstrike's not safe.
There are still lots of stupid 2++ rerollable guyz flying around in every competitive tournament.

For this, deepstrike should be fine if you can find a spot within 24" of your intended victim (you don't want to get too close, so it's normally not that hard).

If the guys with the rerollable 2++ are single model unit MCs, yeah, not so great (only capable of putting out 6 S10 AP1 hits on them).
But against anything with 3 models or more in the unit (eg. Seer Council), this thing will be devastating (so long as you can get the line to pass over at least three models, that will be 18 S10 AP1 hits. Increases by 6 hits for every additional model the line can touch. It might not wipe them out, but it will most probably cause them significant hurt).


I think you may be mistaken about how the Focussed Death Ray works, or I may just be interpreting your post wrong.

The FDR his every unit underneath the line for a number of hits equal to twice the number of models underneath the line. Therefore passing the line over 3 models would yield 6 S10 AP1 hits (3 models * 2 hits per model = 6 hits). I'm not sure where you are getting 6 hits per model instead of 2 hits.

No offense meant, I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something.
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Your interpretation is the correct "RAW" version of playing it, thus "Rules as written", which means that you play it like it's written in the rules.

Skoffs refers to "RAI", which means "Rules as Intended", which is an interpretation of RAW. RAI is discussed when RAW seems unlikely. In this case, RAI is discussed because the regular Death Ray is worded differently than the Focussed Death Ray.

Situation: 3 models in unit A and 1 model in unit B are hit.


RAW:

FDR: 4 hits in total, that get doubled, thus EACH unit gets 8 hits.

DR: Unit A gets 3 hits, unit B gets 1 hit.


RAI (to some):

FDR: Unit A gets 6 hits, unit B gets 2 hits.

DR: Unit A gets 3 hits, unit B gets 1 hit.


Always assume RAW unless your TO / local group disagrees and develops an own house rule.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/01 18:07:31


   
Made in us
Furious Raptor




The major benefit to the star is that you get to exploit FW wording combined with beam weapon wording to ignore several RAI counters that don't count, like Jink and "targetting" etc.

That's not a deathstar that's an expliot, and it's a great example of why a lot of people don't allow FW. It's not that it's illegal, it's that it isn't and that's the problem. Powergaming isn't evil or anything, but i find Re-rollable 2++ to be WAAC but legal-shady, while this is douchey. Maybe it's me splitting hairs, I get that, but that is how I would interpret someone shoehorning FW glitch builds into a new ruleset. This build didn't "break the game", people who build list like this and play them "break the game". A list is just information until someone says "well, technically I'm targetting the ground huehuehue"
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





FettPrime wrote:
I think you may be mistaken about how the Focussed Death Ray works, or I may just be interpreting your post wrong.

The FDR his every unit underneath the line for a number of hits equal to twice the number of models underneath the line. Therefore passing the line over 3 models would yield 6 S10 AP1 hits (3 models * 2 hits per model = 6 hits). I'm not sure where you are getting 6 hits per model instead of 2 hits.

Pylons tend to travel in threes (or at least, in this deathstar group, they do). If each of them draws their FDR line over the same model, that's 2 hits generated, times 3 Pylons... hence 6 hits for every one model all three lines touch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cod3x wrote:
The major benefit to the star is that you get to exploit FW wording combined with beam weapon wording to ignore several RAI counters that don't count, like Jink and "targetting" etc.

That's not a deathstar that's an expliot, and it's a great example of why a lot of people don't allow FW. It's not that it's illegal, it's that it isn't and that's the problem. Powergaming isn't evil or anything, but i find Re-rollable 2++ to be WAAC but legal-shady, while this is douchey. Maybe it's me splitting hairs, I get that, but that is how I would interpret someone shoehorning FW glitch builds into a new ruleset. This build didn't "break the game", people who build list like this and play them "break the game". A list is just information until someone says "well, technically I'm targetting the ground huehuehue"

Make no mistake, the only reason anyone would consider this thing is in a WAAC situation. If you've got people playing impossible to hit invisible 2++ rerolling deamon factories (an exaggeration, I know), most non-broken lists don't stand a chance. THAT'S when you pull out something like this.
(granted, fighting douchey with douchey is hardly the best solution, but it all comes down to what the stakes are and what cost you're willing to pay to win)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/01 18:33:20


 
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

Had a friend run these against me last weekend. Luckily, I was running my Daemon Factory list, had 2 Bale Sword Nurgle Princes. He promptly died.

I wasn't much impressed lol =/

But I can see the appeal. The line mechanic makes for some very interesting (Arguably cheesy) RAI vs RAW shenanigans that both you and your opponent will NEED to discuss beforehand.

Life: An incomprehensible, endless circle of involuntary self-destruction.

12,000
14,000
11,000

 
   
Made in gb
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Re: Pylon Star. Do artillery units not all have to aim at the same unit? Meaning that you can only fire this unit at whatever units your opponent has lined up. I asked a TO (Timma who organised Caledonian Uprising here is the UK) about how he'd rule a unit of three Death Ray Pylons (the Doom Scythe already being somewhat contentious at tourneys) and he said that they would all need to pick the same spot on the battlefield and shoot along the same line.

Average number of inches rolled on 3d6? I guess it's 10.5? So let's say your beam is 10.5 inches long from the spot you've picked. There is a good chance that you will be deleting one unit at best (assuming your opponent knows what it does). Actually on average you won't even delete a Wraithknight (average of one failed to wound roll per 6). Next turn you take an army's worth of shooting. You have probably spent over 700pts on making a very clear priority target for your opponent. (In fact I just checked and the version outlined earlier is 865 points).

If your opponent sees this list on your army list he will deploy accordingly: spread out, reserve stuff, use backfield cover etc. O'Byron's deepstrike is not misshap free and the Pylons obviously still need line of sight.

Any unit that is only really effective against an opponent who doesn't understand it is of somewhat limited value at a tournament, I'd say.

865 gets you a fully kitted Transcendent C'Tan with the best loadout and and annihilation barge...
   
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 skoffs wrote:
Pylons tend to travel in threes (or at least, in this deathstar group, they do). If each of them draws their FDR line over the same model, that's 2 hits generated, times 3 Pylons... hence 6 hits for every one model all three lines touch.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I forgot about multiple FDRs.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





USA

As much as I am for a challenge, this doesn't seem remotely fun to play against.

Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points) 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Frankenberry wrote:
As much as I am for a challenge, this doesn't seem remotely fun to play against.


As was mentioned already, simply spreading out or reserving take most of the threat away. Drop Pod melta squads will wreck havoc on it too. Its more of a fun gimmick than an actual threat.
   
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New Bedford, MA USA

And now I know why my nephew was asking me if I had any Pylons he could borrow...

   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Fragile wrote:
Drop Pod melta squads will wreck havoc on it too.
If you're going first, maybe. But if the Necron player goes first you're not going to need to worry about drop pods to get to it, it will probably already be in your deployment zone.

Kholzerino wrote:
Re: Pylon Star. Do artillery units not all have to aim at the same unit? Meaning that you can only fire this unit at whatever units your opponent has lined up. I asked a TO (Timma who organised Caledonian Uprising here is the UK) about how he'd rule a unit of three Death Ray Pylons (the Doom Scythe already being somewhat contentious at tourneys) and he said that they would all need to pick the same spot on the battlefield and shoot along the same line.
What says you have to draw all three lines in the same spot? How is it they can't just have three separate 3d6" lines drawn anywhere within 24" of them?

865 gets you a fully kitted Transcendent C'Tan with the best loadout and and annihilation barge...
No argument, there. That's why I'm still trying to figure out whether the 800+ points required for this thing (810 at cheapest) might be better spent elsewhere (eg. Two full units of Wraiths with attached D.Lords, 5x5 Nightscythes with Warriors inside, a T.C'tan with all the trimmings, etc.).

 
   
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 Desubot wrote:
bodazoka wrote:
What if I just reserve all of my stuff to counter deploy your alpha strike and then blow your pylons up?

Are Pylons AV11 rear? so drop pod melta?


Auto lose T1? then

Pylons are T7 models and all the incoming fire goes to the IC because of how artillery works. drowning it with a large quantity of poison shots will do well i think.



lol of course I would keep the number of units on the board minimum.

Also an MSU spam army that reserves itself like a drop pod army and deploy 1-2-3 min sized marine units apart from each other so the alpha strike of the pylons can only hit one unit? then counter deploy all your drop pods where the lord is not there to soak wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/02 00:24:29


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




People say this is cheese because they see the three FDRs. Even if the units of pylons doesn't get warped around by Obyron or a despairtek, it's still a perfectly legal unit. You have three FDRs in the middle of the board blasting your opponent's units off the table. Heck, you could have three units of these on the board destroying your opponent if you really wanted to.

If you wanted to really get crazy, don't even take Obyron, take two overlords with 2+/3++ with warscythes and MSS, add in a despairtek with veil and you can control the center of the table just as easily with two melee monsters that can take hits all day long.

This isn't any more cheesy than the eldar/dark eldar beast star non-sense or the centurion star with 4 special characters or a seer star with 2++ rerollable with invis and precog or Draigowing with allies. The only thing that makes this so controversial is that we never could do it before because it wasn't legal. Is it powerful? Yes, it's 800+ points, it better be powerful. Is it invincible? Not even close.

Would I use it? No, investing 40% of my points in 4-6 models is a recipe for disaster.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





bodazoka wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
bodazoka wrote:
What if I just reserve all of my stuff to counter deploy your alpha strike and then blow your pylons up?

Are Pylons AV11 rear? so drop pod melta?
Auto lose T1? then

Pylons are T7 models and all the incoming fire goes to the IC because of how artillery works. drowning it with a large quantity of poison shots will do well i think.
lol of course I would keep the number of units on the board minimum.

Also an MSU spam army that reserves itself like a drop pod army and deploy 1-2-3 min sized marine units apart from each other so the alpha strike of the pylons can only hit one unit? then counter deploy all your drop pods to the rear armour of the pylons and/or where the lord is not there to soak wounds.
Pylons do not have rear armor, but yes, if you got to a side of the unit where the Overlord was not, he wouldn't be able to tank for them.

The Pylon Deathstar is more of a counter-deathstar (much like the superheavy Pylon is a counter-superheavy unit). Against normal armies it won't work as well, but against anything trying to pull off shenanigans, this has got some counter shenanigans.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warmonger2757 wrote:
If you wanted to really get crazy, don't even take Obyron, take two overlords with 2+/3++ with warscythes and MSS, add in a despairtek with veil and you can control the center of the table just as easily with two melee monsters that can take hits all day long.
[...]
Would I use it? No, investing 40% of my points in 4-6 models is a recipe for disaster.
Well, if that's the case, there is another Necron Deathstar you might like that's been around since the codex dropped in 5th...
Royal Court Disco Inferno!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/02 00:43:50


 
   
Made in gb
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Skiffs - re same line or not - well this is unique rules to a multiple unit of Pylons. They have to target the same unit, that's for sure. So their lines have to be going towards the same unit (because they are a unit). Whether they have to start from the same point I the table or not is contentious because they shoot in a different manner to any other unit and the rules aren't spelled out. That is why I asked a TO - I was hoping they functioned the way others on here have fantasised - he said nay. Other TOs might say different.
   
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 skoffs wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Wouldn't that still just make unit B one of multiple targets even if not the original unit the gun is fired at?

Assuming you mean Unit A, here (the invisible unit in question).

Well, if it was a blast weapon that had scattered onto them, that wouldn't make it one of multiple "targets", right?
Just the target of the weapon (Unit B) and what actually ended up being hit by the weapon (Unit A, the invisible unit). If that wasn't the case, your own units would be immune from scattered friendly fire blast templates because you can't "target" your own units.
From a RAW perspective there doesn't seem to be anything that would make Unit A suddenly become a "target" just because they happened to be hit.
(though if there is anything that would refute this, I'd gladly accept citation. I'm trying to make sure this thing is airtight).

This makes sense. I see no other ways to hit invis units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So does everyone play in their local tourneys that scattered Blasts and templates pointed at another unit can wound invis units caught in the AoE?? Or that templates pointed at a closeby unit can wound flyers?

This seems like a very liberal and bs "deciding it works like this because it benefits me" interpretation. Would never fly where I live.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/02 07:14:56


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
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Proud Triarch Praetorian





 SHUPPET wrote:
So does everyone play in their local tourneys that scattered Blasts and templates pointed at another unit can wound invis units caught in the AoE?? Or that templates pointed at a closeby unit can wound flyers?

This seems like a very liberal and bs "deciding it works like this because it benefits me" interpretation. Would never fly where I live.
Why wouldn't scattered blasts be able to hurt invisible units? They weren't the target, there should be nothing preventing them from taking the accidental hit.

Flyers, though, I'm torn on: while I think (from a fluff perspective, anyway) that they shouobe hurt by your average blast, for something like an apocalyptic mega blast, it'd be kinda hard for a pilot to avoid that if he was right at the center of an explosion that big.
In general, I'd agree, flyers shouldn't be able to be hit by templates of any kind.

 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Thank you for your response on what should work from a fluff/logical standpoint. Now, as far as the actual rules go - they both have the same wording.

If templates hit invisible units they can hit flyers

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Alright.

Kholzerino wrote:
They have to target the same unit, that's for sure. So their lines have to be going towards the same unit (because they are a unit).
Okay, so they all have to select the same "target", I'm with you on that.
But in the example we're using, the unit they choose as target and the unit they actually hit are two separate units. The rules for firimng these things just say to measure a line when the Pylon shoots. It doesn't indicate anything about all of them having to draw the same line. (after all, if an artillery unit of mortars all fire at a unit, they're all going to have separate blast markers and scatter rolls, right? Similar situation here, only in our case it's "scattered lines" that go off target and hit a unit that wasn't their designated target).

 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





 SHUPPET wrote:
Thank you for your response on what should work from a fluff/logical standpoint. Now, as far as the actual rules go - they both have the same wording.

If templates hit invisible units they can hit flyers


Nope.

Hard to hit:

Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





For starters, you deliberately left out the ruling they share, that I was obviously referring to.. Secondly that rule you quoted reads as a clarification to the first rule (that you conveniently left out), to me and everybody else I know to read it, reinstating the obvious (blasts and templates that can't be fired as snapshots, obviously cannot hit a unit that cannot be shot at except for snapshots).

Deliberately leaving out critical rules text just hurts you more than it helps and shows how badly your argument needs to clutch at straws. Like seriously, you would have actually had to take longer to delete it from the middle of your copy-paste.

Sorry, I can see how hard you are going to clutch to this, and while this Deathstar is amazing, it cannot hit invis units. I'll be running it regardless when I get the models, but sheesh... Trying to push that this can hit invis units is deliberately scraping for a bad interpretation imo. This is already a great unit, trying to milk further dodginess out of it is just TFG.

Otherwise I don't think I'd build a list for any army without an allied Doomscythe. Believe me I want a good way to deal with invis - this ain't it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/02 15:12:30


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Why does it matter? The rules explicitely disallow beams (among others weapons) to hit flyers.

Can you quote the same thing for non-flyers?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/02 15:12:28


   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Well the part where we aren't talking about Beams is a good start.

The part where the rules state this is a template attack, and the part where all that is irrelevant because weapons that don't roll to hit cannot be resolved against Invisible units would have to be another.

The rule you quoted is "clearly stating". Hence why it's a clarification/reminder of how these weapons play out in relation to units that must be snapfired at. It's already stated throughout the book - just because it isn't clearly stated next to each mention of snapfiring doesn't make it suddenly stop existing for the ones that don't clearly restate it.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
 
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