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NydusTemplar wrote:As an aside, you are forgetting that WS 10 won't typically protect the Space Marine Captain, either. It won't protect him anymore than the Tactical Marine. The only way his WS 10 is going to protect him is if he's not in a squad, or in a squad with only 1 other model. If he's not in a squad, he's probably dead from being shot off the table. If he's in a squad, he's probably not in the majority, so as a result, his effective Weapon Skill is the squad's. So unless the entire squad has 10, all that increase to WS is doing, is letting him hit on 3s instead of on 4s. Also, he's already at weapon skill 5, and there's only so many models that beat his WS as it stands. Sure, he gets an extra, let's say, 3 attacks with it, and probably in better gear, but the weapon skill, which you are now paying for to be increased, is only contributing so much. Everything else in the package is paid for separately.

1. The Captain is WS6, not 5.

2. Ever heard of something called 'challenges'?

3. He takes 33% less damage from enemies with WS4 or less, and 25% less damage from enemies with WS7 or more. He also deals out 25% more damage against enemies with WS7-9. This is very significant, especially since it stacks heavily with Thunder Hammers or something of the like. Usually Thunder Hammers have their damage potential limited by the Hit roll; it wounds almost everything on a 2+ and ignores all armour, but a lot of those nasty attacks fall away at the hit step. Thus, additional hits brought by better WS are even better for a Captain.

Also, for a good example that this might be useful: Genestealers.

If all the costs are 'value adjusted' to match their 'theoretical utility', than the decision to pay for them or not pay for them is taken away from the player. That's bad. At that point, they might as well just allow no options and force builds onto units, because that's what they'd be doing. If there's no risk to the choice, then there's no choice. If there's nothing to weigh, nothing to consider, its not a choice. Choice makes game play. I cannot possibly explain this more clearly.

A Power Fist costs 25 points. A grot costs 3 points. You are telling me upgrades should not have their cost adjusted depending on what they are applied to.

Thus, what you are telling me here is that you would buy a grot with a Power Fist for 28 points, for a mighty 1 WS2 S4 AP2 I1 attack on a model with T2 W1 LD5 SV-

Are you joking, my good sir?

 Ashiraya wrote:

1. The Captain is WS6, not 5.

2. Ever heard of something called 'challenges'?

3. He takes 33% less damage from enemies with WS4 or less, and 25% less damage from enemies with WS7 or more. He also deals out 25% more damage against enemies with WS7-9. This is very significant, especially since it stacks heavily with Thunder Hammers or something of the like. Usually Thunder Hammers have their damage potential limited by the Hit roll; it wounds almost everything on a 2+ and ignores all armour, but a lot of those nasty attacks fall away at the hit step. Thus, additional hits brought by better WS are even better for a Captain.

Also, for a good example that this might be useful: Genestealers.

A Power Fist costs 25 points. A grot costs 3 points. You are telling me upgrades should not have their cost adjusted depending on what they are applied to.

Thus, what you are telling me here is that you would buy a grot with a Power Fist for 28 points, for a mighty 1 WS2 S4 AP2 I1 attack on a model with T2 W1 LD5 SV-

Are you joking, my good sir?

1. Yes, I was mistaken on his Weapon Skill. That, however, does not detract from my point, but instead strengthens it. Weapon Skill 10 would not be so major a change over his current in most situations. However, since you've now tipped your hand by attacking with your rebuttal, this will be the last response to you on this subject.

2. Yes. Challenges would be a time where this would come into play. However, most enemies who would ever willingly accept or challenge a SM Captain sporting WS 10, would likely have a high enough WS to still hit on a 4+. Otherwise, whomever you're throwing in front of the SM Captain is not, by any means, designed to hurt the Captain. He's there to protect another character, or just to eat attacks and wounds. Most every other character even partially designed for dueling would have WS 5 or higher.

3. Once again, the situations where WS 10 would be providing defense is limited to; Challenges, when in a unit with only one other model, in a unit with a similarly high Weapon Skill, or when not in a unit. He'd also only receive a ~16.6% damage reduction against WS 7-9 since they'd go from 3+ to 4+. Yes, Thunder Hammers are powerful, and To Hit is a large factor of damage loss. However, let's run the numbers. A SM Captain, wielding a Thunder Hammer, has 3 Attacks. Let's say he's charging and gets 4. With a 4+, he'd only hit with 2 attacks. With a 3+, he'd hit with ~2.64 attacks. Nothing game breaking there. But fine, let's say you really want to go the extra mile and slap another Specialist weapon so he gets an extra attack. Now its 5 attacks, resulting in 2.5 hits (4+) or ~3.3 (3+) with the WS 10 upgrade. You got an extra hit out of it which you wouldn't have normally gotten when facing down the handful of enemies in the game which are WS 7-9. That hit is at Ini 1, so the enemy will at least get to swing as well, if not swing before hand.

Yes, in a Challenge against the only Genestealer who can accept a challenge, the Broodlord, you'd now only be hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+. That's probably not going to save you when he chooses not to accept the challenge and skulks in the back as you eat an entire Genestealer brood's worth of rending attacks.

Once again, you seek to put words in my mouth. You seem to think that, because I support a game design philosophy requiring players to think for themselves instead of developers handing them their decisions, I would then make use of each and every option without analysis. Although, a Gretchin with a Power Fist is hilarious, and technically means that 28 point model has a chance of punching out a 40 point Terminator. I'm just imagining a squad of 10, each armed with a little Power Klaw, delivering 10 Str 4 AP 2 attacks, dealing 3 wounds and likely killing 2 Terminators. If they do charge the Terminators, they deal 6.6~ wounds, killing 4~ Terminators. Not the best usage of points, but hilariously awesome enough to consider.

Especially since you could throw in a ton of cheap Gretchin wounds to soak the counter attacks, and bind it to a Warboss for Leadership 9 and even more deadly Power Klaw attacks. Bonus points if the Warboss takes Da Lucky Stikk, increasing the Gretchin's WS to 3, thus allowing them to hit on 4+ instead of 5+ against those Terminators. That means they now dish out 5 wounds instead of 3 wounds, and 10 wounds instead of 6.6~ on the charge. I'd almost think the cost 'might' be worth the look on the Space Marine player's face when his 10 Termies get eaten by a squad of Snippy Grots. Ankle Biter WAAAGH!!

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
1 ppm sounds about right. Maybe have a 0-5 restriction per squad to represent the weapon's rarity.

So... minus the sergeant (who can buy one, being a character) and three special weapons troopers, your limitation (assuming you're not taking a heavy weapons team, which might actually make sense if going the anti-infantry route since you're already buying bolters) is 1 vet can't buy a bolter?

No, it's that five vets can't take one. It's per squad so that includes the Sergeant. It's not really a power restriction as much as one to better represent the fluff. Actually... I wouldn't even do that as giving entire Guard squads Boltguns, while not breaking the fluff, is a newish thing so you can do whatever you want with it. And it gives the squad a simpler firing profile.

 NydusTemplar wrote:


1. Yes, I was mistaken on his Weapon Skill. That, however, does not detract from my point, but instead strengthens it. Weapon Skill 10 would not be so major a change over his current in most situations. However, since you've now tipped your hand by attacking with your rebuttal, this will be the last response to you on this subject.

WS10 for a Captain would still be more significant than for a Tactical Marine, for obvious reasons.

As for the 'attack', the question was sincere.

2. Yes. Challenges would be a time where this would come into play. However, most enemies who would ever willingly accept or challenge a SM Captain sporting WS 10, would likely have a high enough WS to still hit on a 4+. Otherwise, whomever you're throwing in front of the SM Captain is not, by any means, designed to hurt the Captain. He's there to protect another character, or just to eat attacks and wounds. Most every other character even partially designed for dueling would have WS 5 or higher.

If the WS upgrade made the enemy refuse the challenge, then that is also beneficial to you! Do not forget that. By refusing to fight, the character can't attack, and neither can his LD be used by the squad. Oh, and yes, if he fights a WS5+ character he still hits them on 3+ which is still significant in comparison to the Tactical Marine earlier.

3. Once again, the situations where WS 10 would be providing defense is limited to; Challenges, when in a unit with only one other model, in a unit with a similarly high Weapon Skill, or when not in a unit. He'd also only receive a ~16.6% damage reduction against WS 7-9 since they'd go from 3+ to 4+. Yes, Thunder Hammers are powerful, and To Hit is a large factor of damage loss. However, let's run the numbers. A SM Captain, wielding a Thunder Hammer, has 3 Attacks. Let's say he's charging and gets 4. With a 4+, he'd only hit with 2 attacks. With a 3+, he'd hit with ~2.64 attacks. Nothing game breaking there. But fine, let's say you really want to go the extra mile and slap another Specialist weapon so he gets an extra attack. Now its 5 attacks, resulting in 2.5 hits (4+) or ~3.3 (3+) with the WS 10 upgrade. You got an extra hit out of it which you wouldn't have normally gotten when facing down the handful of enemies in the game which are WS 7-9. That hit is at Ini 1, so the enemy will at least get to swing as well, if not swing before hand.

That 'extra hit' just made the difference between killing a PK Warboss or not killing him (Since the captain will most likely die in return anyway). That is... Pretty significant.

In your second sentence you mention 16,6%. This is incorrect, percentages work differently.

Look at it this way:

3+ to hit - 4 chances to hit on the dice

4+ to hit - 3 chances to hit on the dice

3 is 75% of 4, so that makes a loss of... As I said... 25%

Yes, in a Challenge against the only Genestealer who can accept a challenge, the Broodlord, you'd now only be hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+. That's probably not going to save you when he chooses not to accept the challenge and skulks in the back as you eat an entire Genestealer brood's worth of rending attacks.

Yes, if the Captain is alone. And as said, forcing the foe to refuse a challenge is usually beneficial.

And let's face it, you're pretty desperate if you ever assault Genestealers instead of gunning them down (Which is rather easy given how fragile they are for their price)

Once again, you seek to put words in my mouth. You seem to think that, because I support a game design philosophy requiring players to think for themselves instead of developers handing them their decisions, I would then make use of each and every option without analysis. Although, a Gretchin with a Power Fist is hilarious, and technically means that 28 point model has a chance of punching out a 40 point Terminator. I'm just imagining a squad of 10, each armed with a little Power Klaw, delivering 10 Str 4 AP 2 attacks, dealing 3 wounds and likely killing 2 Terminators. If they do charge the Terminators, they deal 6.6~ wounds, killing 4~ Terminators. Not the best usage of points, but hilariously awesome enough to consider.

Especially since you could throw in a ton of cheap Gretchin wounds to soak the counter attacks, and bind it to a Warboss for Leadership 9 and even more deadly Power Klaw attacks. Bonus points if the Warboss takes Da Lucky Stikk, increasing the Gretchin's WS to 3, thus allowing them to hit on 4+ instead of 5+ against those Terminators. That means they now dish out 5 wounds instead of 3 wounds, and 10 wounds instead of 6.6~ on the charge. I'd almost think the cost 'might' be worth the look on the Space Marine player's face when his 10 Termies get eaten by a squad of Snippy Grots. Ankle Biter WAAAGH!!

If you admit you would not use it, then that means it needs fixing. This in turn is proof that you can't just have a points value for all upgrades and slap it onto all units and think that this will work.

Yes, a 28 point gretchin has a chance of killing a 40 point terminator. Ten of these gretchin will make: ten attacks, five hits, 2,5 wounds, 1,6666... kills. The terminators strike simultaneously, dealing twenty attacks that hit on a 3+ and wounds on a 2+. The gretchin have to take a LD test on 5 minus a lot, meaning they need a double one to not be wiped out. So in 35/36 cases, the gretchin are instawiped.

This is assuming they would ever get to melee, which they won't, unless the foe decides to assault them for lols and watch them get wiped out by Guardsmen. They are twice the cost of a Tactical Marine and die roughly six times as easily to bolter fire.


But ignore all that, let's get to the point. In this example, you are paying twice the price of a Tactical Marine for:

-2 WS
-1 BS
-2 S
-2 T
-3 I
-3 LD
- Any form of armour
- A decent ranged weapon
- ATSKNF
- CT
- Frag and Krak grenades
+ AP2 in melee

Now, here is the question: Do you think this model is appropriately priced?

If you don't, this proves that upgrades across all units are indeed not equivalent, which is what I have been trying to say all along.

Yes, upgrades should be priced differently based on what's carrying them, similar to the price difference of a stim injector on a crisis suit and riptide.

I think any given codex armory should have a price for wargear on 1 wound troops, and a second price for Multi-wound characters. It's not perfect, as some characters will still make better use than others, but it's closer to balanced and still pretty simple to figure out for the person building the army.

The old system with individual options for each unit worked perfectly well.

I think 10 points per unit of veterans would be fine:

1) It matches the existing example of acolytes
2) Whilst there might be a slight cumulative edge to BS4 bolters over BS3 bolters, it's not massive in the grand scheme of things.
3) A veteran unit would already be paying an extra surcharge in the form of models not carrying their small arms (special weapons, heavy weapons, sergeant).
4) Taking bolters means the unit cannot benefit from Front Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! - again, not huge but also not a benefit you can flat-out ignore.