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While we are on the topic of identifying trolls...

KeyserSoze wrote:
BotWD is one of the biggest cheats in the game. I hope that they at least raise it at a proper cost, about 225 points.

Refrain from feeding this one also.

Basically saying it shouldn't exit. And it shouldn't. I have no idea what it should be costed. It's other abilities are nice. It's ability to shut down an entire army book has no price. And the lol-face ability to put it on a rank and file member who can't be challenged.

Oh don't get me wrong, it's a ridiculous item. I play High Elves and can honestly say I've not used it once, but then again I don't play tournaments. Of course I'd use it if I played tournaments.

Making it so magic attacks in close combat can effect the unit would probably be enough of a fix.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Basically saying it shouldn't exit. And it shouldn't. I have no idea what it should be costed. It's other abilities are nice. It's ability to shut down an entire army book has no price. And the lol-face ability to put it on a rank and file member who can't be challenged.

I fully agree. I am sad that the BotWD did not get ANY changes or restrictions in current WHFB rules but finding a majority just wasn't possible. It's an extremely unfair and overpowered item and should not be a part of the game.

Swedish comp at least harshly limits its use, but ETC downright failed on this one.

In all honesty against armies that aren't DoC it isn't unfair and unbalanced to anywhere near the same degree. Probably still slightly under-costed, but not game-wreckingly unfair.

Consider also that it is still ridiculously easy for Phoenix Guard to achieve what the Banner provides against spell damage even if the BoTWD was nerved or cease to exist. Granted PG aren't White Lions, but you get what I'm saying.

Agreed that the banner is not the best in terms of in-game balance but I love how all the Daemon players can suddenly get on their high horse an edition after they had some of the most broken stuff in the game (ala Banner of Sundering, Epidemus - still broken??? etc). Just funny is all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the actual post and what to do about it....

Avoid would be my bet if playing Daemons. As well as feeding it chaff units.

 John Rainbow wrote:
Agreed that the banner is not the best in terms of in-game balance but I love how all the Daemon players can suddenly get on their high horse an edition after they had some of the most broken stuff in the game (ala Banner of Sundering, Epidemus - still broken??? etc). Just funny is all.

If you went to the DoC forums and looked back, the DoC players admitted the book was poorly written, overpowered and unbalanced. They had their own fan-dex ideas that they actually sent to GW as suggestions for things to do to change the book to make it more balanced internally and externally.

Unfortunately, GW made the genius decision to have Ward re-write the book.

I think it's all settled, then: Daemons should use chaff and Test-Or-Die spells to deal with the Banner of the World Dragon. Dwellers will be best on Silver Helms, Dwellers and Final Transmutation work the same on White Lions.

Everyone seems to agree, more or less, on the rest.

- the Banner should cost more.

- Daemons have their own super-good stuff. The Banner is far, far more broken against Daemons, while Beasts, Khannons, and 'Bombing are more all-around awesomesauce.

I think we can put this thread to rest then, no? Unless people want to vent s'more, I guess.

 John Rainbow wrote:
Agreed that the banner is not the best in terms of in-game balance but I love how all the Daemon players can suddenly get on their high horse an edition after they had some of the most broken stuff in the game (ala Banner of Sundering, Epidemus - still broken??? etc). Just funny is all.

I hate when people even remotely make this kind of comment because it's a ridiculous logical fallacy. You're not balancing to past editions. You're balancing to the current edition. Last ed HE had an OP magic phase because of items and Teclis and fortress and stuff. So you don't go, okay, since your 7th ed magic phase was OP, in 8th, you get -2PD and an auto miscast every turn. No. You throw away the old book and make it balanced to the current game. You don't punish people who may never have played HE or are just joining the game. I don't get a speeding ticket for being in a blue car just because someone in a blue car sped 2 hours ago.

I think we can put this thread to rest then, no? Unless people want to vent s'more, I guess.

It's a discussion forum. You don't have to discuss if you don't want to.

We are highly likely to change the banner to grant Magic Resistance (3) or even (4). Had our usual test runs and are satisfied with the results.

 Sigvatr wrote:
We are highly likely to change the banner to grant Magic Resistance (3) or even (4). Had our usual test runs and are satisfied with the results.

I know I don't play over there, but might I suggest that it be a little better than that? MR is kind of, well, crappy in the current edition (speaking as a Khorne DoC player). While 50 points for MR(3) seems to be an appropriate pricing, MR is of such situational use that the BotWD would likely go from always present to never present. Not really sure what to suggest without putting it back into the "too powerful" side, though.

We discussed it a lot and it's the best we came up with. Banning it would not solve the problem it poses, but working against all magical attacks of any sort is far too strong. That's why ultimatively we decided on in giving Magic Resistance - test or die still works yet it provides a solid resistance vs. magic that causes wounds. And 50 pts is fairly priced ioo.

What If it was just a 3+ ward, I have used the banner against my buddies who play demons and it can be brutal. I also think tho that it's only 1 unit and a general can, as stated before, use chaff, terrain and other tactics to defeat the rest of the army.

The problem there is assuming that the HE player is incompetent. You can't just expect one player to pull off a chaff-spamming, unit-dodging movement masterclass when his opponent is also playing an active part in the battle. For every unit of 5 Furies that the Daemon player sacrifices to delay the 'Star, the High Elf player can pull 5 Reavers (And from Core, no less). For every Beast of Nurgle, the other player can almost afford a complete Bolt Thrower.
You are taking an army with no armour, no Core chaff and very limited BS-shooting, and asking it to dance about an army with almost free access to M9 Fast Cavalry, massed anti-infantry firepower and a deathstar that might have the ability to teleport anyway. Asking the Daemon player to pull off these stunts just reinforces the fact that the 'finesse, elite and hard-to-wield' Elf army can waltz upfield and smash his brick into your face repeatedly.

Mozzamanx wrote:
The problem there is assuming that the HE player is incompetent. You can't just expect one player to pull off a chaff-spamming, unit-dodging movement masterclass when his opponent is also playing an active part in the battle. For every unit of 5 Furies that the Daemon player sacrifices to delay the 'Star, the High Elf player can pull 5 Reavers (And from Core, no less). For every Beast of Nurgle, the other player can almost afford a complete Bolt Thrower.
You are taking an army with no armour, no Core chaff and very limited BS-shooting, and asking it to dance about an army with almost free access to M9 Fast Cavalry, massed anti-infantry firepower and a deathstar that might have the ability to teleport anyway. Asking the Daemon player to pull off these stunts just reinforces the fact that the 'finesse, elite and hard-to-wield' Elf army can waltz upfield and smash his brick into your face repeatedly.

Not even. There is *1* unit the demon player must avoid. Not the whole army. Furies will wipe a unit of reavers on the charge.

RBT's are crap against demons. Yea, you could get lucky and smack a GD with a few wounds, but if he's standing behind his other units you need a 6 to hit, 4 to wound, him to fail his ward save, and then roll d6 wounds.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
The problem there is assuming that the HE player is incompetent. You can't just expect one player to pull off a chaff-spamming, unit-dodging movement masterclass when his opponent is also playing an active part in the battle. For every unit of 5 Furies that the Daemon player sacrifices to delay the 'Star, the High Elf player can pull 5 Reavers (And from Core, no less). For every Beast of Nurgle, the other player can almost afford a complete Bolt Thrower.
You are taking an army with no armour, no Core chaff and very limited BS-shooting, and asking it to dance about an army with almost free access to M9 Fast Cavalry, massed anti-infantry firepower and a deathstar that might have the ability to teleport anyway. Asking the Daemon player to pull off these stunts just reinforces the fact that the 'finesse, elite and hard-to-wield' Elf army can waltz upfield and smash his brick into your face repeatedly.

Not even. There is *1* unit the demon player must avoid. Not the whole army. Furies will wipe a unit of reavers on the charge.

RBT's are crap against demons. Yea, you could get lucky and smack a GD with a few wounds, but if he's standing behind his other units you need a 6 to hit, 4 to wound, him to fail his ward save, and then roll d6 wounds.

High Elves have the best anti-chaff abilities in the game alongside their Dark kin...

If you can't clear the limited amount of Daemonic chaff when you have options including Bolters, Reavers, Sisters, Archers, min/maxed Silverhelm darts, Eagles and your entire magic phase, then you're doing it wrong.
Mono or heavy Slaanesh armies are more problematic due to all that M10 and the likelihood of Caco, but Khurgle Wall is brutally predictable in how it moves.

Note too that most High Elves arguments claiming the banner isn't that much of a problem for DoC, also tend to happily assume the banner unit is being played in a vacuum with nothing else around supporting...
In practice, the unit is typically well anchored with nearby supports such as chaff cleaners, (Reavers/Sisters/Frostie), and another decent fighty unit such as Phoenix Guard or Helms/DP's or Frostie. And if needs be, there's always the backfield of Bolters & typically some Archers to help out.



Most Daemon players I think agree that:
1. Beasts need to be either 75-100pts each, or have their current abilities scaled back to better reflect their far too cheap cost. (personally I'd argue for 80-85pts/model as about right)
2. Khannons should be around 160 or so pts a piece. 180 is pushing it, while 200 is a bit too costly considering how often it gets eaten alive by the Reign of Comedy table.
3. Caco Choir needs to lose the AoE and stick to just a range increase. Give the AoE bubble to Acquiescence.
4. Eppi's table is pants-on-head stupid. Like BotWD levels of stupid! A 6" range like its 40k version would help bring some much needed sanity to it.
5. The Portalglyph is a farce and needs to be re-written to prevent the d.bag abuses it grants.

Most High Elf players however it seems argue their banner is just fine and that all DoC players just need to "learn tactics" and accept games of pure 'runawayhammer'.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
It's a discussion forum. You don't have to discuss if you don't want to.

dis·cus·sion
disˈkəSHən
noun
the action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.

I just assumed that, given the last page or so consisting of a few basic ideas, repeated and reworded over and over again, that the purpose behind this thread, specifically, had been achieved.
But the stuff that followed, about possible revisions to the Banner and specific lists/units that Daemons can expect to face is all both new and relevant.

You don't have to type. If this thread angers you or bores you, don't click on it. There's plenty of threads that I think are dead horses. It's not my job/right/responsibility/goal in life to tell everyone they need to stop posting. You stated it was done. People disagreed with you, clearly, as they are still posting. If they want to retype the same posts over and over and it makes them happy, you know, no one is getting hurt. Probably at least 25% of this forum has duplicate answers somewhere. It's a ticker tape.

What If it was just a 3+ ward

There's no such thing as JUST a 3+ ward. That would be way more powerful. Right now the banner obliterates one army. Unquestionably. A blanket 3+ ward would obliterate all armies. Only a handful of units in the game start with 3+ wards, and it's usually lords or units who can't join other units. With a 3+ you could forgo your Lore of High Magic and have something more useful, not needing Shield of Saphery and you could have your white lions with 3+ wards in a super spell bunker. That would be like the bestest death star ever.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

What If it was just a 3+ ward

There's no such thing as JUST a 3+ ward. That would be way more powerful. Right now the banner obliterates one army. Unquestionably. A blanket 3+ ward would obliterate all armies. Only a handful of units in the game start with 3+ wards, and it's usually lords or units who can't join other units. With a 3+ you could forgo your Lore of High Magic and have something more useful, not needing Shield of Saphery and you could have your white lions with 3+ wards in a super spell bunker. That would be like the bestest death star ever.

I think the idea was, "what if BotWD was only a 3++ vs. all Magical Attacks."

It would be somewhat less obnoxious at only a 3++, and also fall in line with the High Elves own rules around High Magic and buffing their existing ward saves. A 3++ means you're instantly doubling the damage that unit receives, so while still rather ruthless vs. DoC, it wouldn't be quite the complete clusterfeth that it actually is.

White Lions would still be utterly evil, but you could use flank/rear charges more effectively to simply force relevant wounds through pure weight of attacks.
The 2++ however makes that pretty moot... hell, you can throw 1200+pts worth of Daemons at the banner currently and still bounce off of it having dealt nothing beyond some cosmetic damage!

Sry lol I meant nerfing it to 3+ ward vs magic and magical attacks, maybe a 5 point increase in points, I always take mine on a BSB anyways but yea I see the advantage of putting it with a unit that makes it overpowered...

 DukeRustfield wrote:
You don't have to type. If this thread angers you or bores you, don't click on it. There's plenty of threads that I think are dead horses. It's not my job/right/responsibility/goal in life to tell everyone they need to stop posting. You stated it was done. People disagreed with you, clearly, as they are still posting. If they want to retype the same posts over and over and it makes them happy, you know, no one is getting hurt. Probably at least 25% of this forum has duplicate answers somewhere. It's a ticker tape.

Easy there, big shooter. All I did was point out that there was no new information being presented. Plenty of threads get shut down when they end up going around in circles. Figured it couldn't hurt to point out that, hey, these points have been made. Seems like a lot of people jump in with their two cents before looking over all of the previous comments.
And then some new stuff was posted, so that works, too!

As for balancing the Banner...it's tough. Putting it at 55+pts would go a huge way toward making it fair. Making it not apply to Magic Attacks would basically make it MR5, right? And at 15pts/point of MR still equals = 75pts. But would people take it?

If it were MR5 and also kept the 2+ ward against Miscast then yes, it would be a fine purchase for the army. Honestly I'd be happy if it kept the same cost with those rules. High Elves retain their magical superiority without axing an entire army in the face.
Alternatively, I don't have much to complain about with its old rules. Total immunity to magic spells, beneficial or otherwise.

Mozzamanx wrote:
If it were MR5 and also kept the 2+ ward against Miscast then yes, it would be a fine purchase for the army. Honestly I'd be happy if it kept the same cost with those rules. High Elves retain their magical superiority without axing an entire army in the face.
Alternatively, I don't have much to complain about with its old rules. Total immunity to magic spells, beneficial or otherwise.

I think this has a lot to do with it.

Seems to me Matt Wards decisions was something like..



Ward: People say the Banner is a broke item. I'll remove the complete immunity but give a ward save instead. It's not nearly as good now, so I'll only charge 50 points.

Of course, he would have been wrong.

I think in order for "as is" to be acceptable, they should have made the unit carrying it immune to friendly spells and change the 2++ to a 3++. I'd not have a problem with that for 50 pts. .

Mozzamanx wrote:
If it were MR5 and also kept the 2+ ward against Miscast.

Almost uncounterable borderline miscast immunity is a giant no-go. Especially at that cost.

Yeah. As I stated above:

MR1 is 15pts, MR2 is 30pts, MR3 is 45pts...so MR4 would be 60pts, and MR5 would be 75pts.

We could say, hey, High Elves are supposed to be good at magic. And, hey, MR isn't very good as-is. Fine drop it 10pts/ Even 15pts. That's still a 60pt banner.

You want Miscast protection? Look at the Earthing Rod. Tons of people take it, it's one use only, and it's 35pts.

Warpsolution wrote:
Yeah. As I stated above:

MR1 is 15pts, MR2 is 30pts, MR3 is 45pts...so MR4 would be 60pts, and MR5 would be 75pts.

We could say, hey, High Elves are supposed to be good at magic. And, hey, MR isn't very good as-is. Fine drop it 10pts/ Even 15pts. That's still a 60pt banner.

You want Miscast protection? Look at the Earthing Rod. Tons of people take it, it's one use only, and it's 35pts.

I guess you're not part of lots of people. It's 25 points.

-Matt

Whoops! Ha. Yeah, I'm not. I just don't have a lot of issues with Miscasts, usually. Probably because I don't 6-dice spells very often.
Either way, wanting MR5 and some kind of Miscast protection for 50pts isn't fair. If the Banner let you, say, add or subtract 1 from the miscast table, I'd say 80pts would be more than reasonable.

Well, just to throw out some spice:

-An MR banner that is 50pts or less is going to cost X.
-An MR banner that costs 51pts or more is going to cost X-Y.

Because the second banner can only be carried by a BSB. Whereas MR can be given to any hero/lord and the 51+ is only one model in the army and it precludes him from taking any other items. So that is a pretty big penalty.

Warpsolution wrote:
Whoops! Ha. Yeah, I'm not. I just don't have a lot of issues with Miscasts, usually. Probably because I don't 6-dice spells very often.
Either way, wanting MR5 and some kind of Miscast protection for 50pts isn't fair. If the Banner let you, say, add or subtract 1 from the miscast table, I'd say 80pts would be more than reasonable.

If I were to re-write it, I'd take a page out of the O&G book.
All magic items in BSB count as mundane items of the same type. Then either MR, or maybe just a nullzone type effect, "all spells targeting the unit (friend or foe), are at -5 to cast. If this brings the modified casting value to less than three, then the casting wizards counts as having broken his concentration.
It's still nice against daemons, as it takes away killing blow (blood letters) and poison attacks (plague bearers), and makes the Cacophonic Choir much harder to pull off (effectively needing a 29 to cast the boosted). It's unlikely to go off at all without 6 dicing and getting unstoppable.
The banner of the world dragon has always been (prior to this book) a defensive item that wizards don't want to be near.

Of course, daemons need some fixes too.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Because the second banner can only be carried by a BSB. So that is a pretty big penalty.

True! That's a hard penalty to price for. I mean, you so rarely see those banners taken, because, no matter what the benefits, they're usually not worth losing your BSB over. The Dwarf's Master Rune of Grungi is the only acception, and that's because it offers as good of defense to your BSB as normal equipment would.


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 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The banner of the world dragon has always been (prior to this book) a defensive item that wizards don't want to be near.

This. Right here. The old Banner was cool. Hard to use, but pretty damn cool.