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So I've read through this thread a while back. And it's still on the front page so I figured I'd add my two cents.

Has anyone considered the idea that GW thinks it's balanced? The High Elf book's been out for awhile. There isn't an errata or FAQ out that addresses the issues being brought up (that I know of). On top of that they (presumably) know what people think of the stuff Matt Ward is putting out, and approve it anyways.

Assuming the above is true, than in theory the BotWD is EXACTLY what GW intended. It sucks for daemon players, though you do have some things that might work, such as chaff or test/die spells. Everyone else just has to kill ONE unit the old fashioned way. How easy or hard that is of course may vary, but elf infantry is at best T3 5+ armor (unbuffed, and buffs can be dispelled).

Arguably daemons are the army high elves need the protection most against. For everyone else it's protection from damage spells, and characters are functionally immune to most challenges. Daemons hit like a ton of bricks, and elves have a bad combination of squishy and low numbers. Does the banner go to far? Possibly. Are there ways around it? Yup, several were posted in this thread. I admit that none of them are fool proof, and think that better solutions may present themselves if people keep working at it. But in the light that GW hasn't changed it, or said anything about it, it's doing what they want it to do.

So Daemon players you've got a few options about it.
1. Listen to the intelligent people who are trying to find ways around it/mitigate it.
2. Join the group of foul mouthed trolls who can't bear to think that *GASP* other armies get great options too!!!!!
3. Quit Daemons, or the game in general.

I'd prefer to see people in the first one honestly. As for everyone who's chosen the 2nd, well sucks for you. It's legal and it'll get used until it gets changed. Expect to keep seeing it.

No new FAQs have been released in quite a while for any army. And there are clearly typos and just plain nonsensical and contradictory things in various books.

One that comes to mind is Lizardmen, which has no FAQ whatsoever. The Terradon guy has a special rule that talks about his unit of Terradon riders. But he can't join Terradons per the BRB. That hasn't been corrected and unless they just felt like being stupid, it's obviously wrong.

So Daemon players you've got a few options about it.
1. Listen to the intelligent people.
2. Join the group of foul mouthed trolls
3. Quit Daemons

You were making a point until this. Basically you're saying you have to be a foul-mouthed troll to think it's broken or quit the game. And those brilliant people who think it's not broken are shining examples of humanity everyone should follow.

I.e., you're being a foul-mouthed troll.

 Mmmpi wrote:

So Daemon players you've got a few options about it.
1. Listen to the intelligent people who are trying to find ways around it/mitigate it.
2. Join the group of foul mouthed trolls who can't bear to think that *GASP* other armies get great options too!!!!!
3. Quit Daemons, or the game in general.

I'd prefer to see people in the first one honestly. As for everyone who's chosen the 2nd, well sucks for you. It's legal and it'll get used until it gets changed. Expect to keep seeing it.

Congrats on proving you have little to no understanding of how stupidly borked this one item makes a game between HE's & DoC...

1. Test or die spells are pointless vs. High Elves. 2 of them target initiative, which elf players laugh at, the other can only be gotten by a rather mediocre on the whole Special Character who's rather prone to getting shot to bits by Elf armies. (especially High & Wood Elves)
Chaffing sounds super easy, until you realise that HE's have a much better chaff & chaff removal game... and all the daemonic chaff comes from the Special section to boot!

2. I'll remember this the next time High Elf players b**** endlessly that Beasts of Nurgle & "Skill" Cannons are apparently the most heinously broken things in the game.
There's great options and undercosted options like Beasts & Khannons. Then there's outright broken gak like BotWD which simply removes all fun & skill from the game.

3. I have quit my DoC as a Fantasy army for now actually, because of too many donkey-cave HE players continuously shoving that giant poop sandwich down my throat every damn game... and also typically combo'ing it alongside the likes of an Alarielle Light Coven, or gunline or double Frostchicken build.
There's no point in playing that farce of a game. There's no tactics or "skill" of any kind, and definitely no fun to be had.


And seriously, if you think that High Elves need their Wardbanner to stand a chance against DoC, then the problem isn't with Daemons being too 'uber or HE's being too squishy. High Elves have plenty of tools to put the screws to Daemons without relying on their moronic crutch.
Sisters, Frosthearts, Bolters, an amazing Core section, ASF + Elf stats, Lions, stackable ward saves on units, all 8 BRB Lores, etc...

High Elves have an amazing core section? I wasn't aware that two choices of infantry, and a choice of two cav options was good. Because, in my book, that's just flat out mediocre. And, to be honest, in the real threats to demon players, you won't see anything bar reavers in core. Because demons are ridiculously durable against S3 shots. Simply because wards are a thing.

As for ASF, you can neuter that with some of the book. I.E. Slaanesh. Or high Toughness. I.E. Nurgle. Khorne does pretty well against White Lions and Swordsmasters, and Beasts just love Phoenix Guard.

As for the lores, Empire get all eight lores. And their entire book is undercosted. You don't see anyone moaning about them. To be frank, Empire is the best book against Demons. And they don't have the banner.

The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

Seems to be some misunderstanding about the three points I listed. My fault for not being clearer in my explanation. I never meant them to be equally valid ideas. It was a run down of what I've seen in every thread that has someone mention BotWD, even the space marine ones. No I don't think you have to be a foul mouthed troll to think it's a bad match up or overpowered, I'M not an idiot. My point was, what does swearing at random people on the internet accomplish? Option one at least has you working on it. Option two just make more problems. Since when does GW actually listen to us on what we think needs to be fixed? Cursing out people for what they put in their armies does jack. What, you going to do? Shame them into it by swearing at them in an easily ignored post? So yeah, don't be an idiot and try to think your way through it. It probably won't be around forever, because daemons aside it's a good banner, which means GW will change it. As for 3, it's ALWAYS an option. Isn't a good one, but it's there. Really though, I think GW does put this stuff out on purpose. Maybe in their play-testing they did find ways around it that we just haven't seen yet (not that I think that THAT's likely), or they didn't test it using a death star, or maybe it did everything people are having issues with, and they said, "Good for the game" and released it.

And yeah, it's a crutch. A hard to remove crutch at that, though it's effects outside of a HE/DoC match up are far less magnified. As was said earlier, most spell casters aren't blasting blocks of infantry with magic missiles and it doesn't stop them from buffing the unit fighting against the banner. So most of it's interaction is units with magic attacks, Chaos knights, some wood elves, and some undead, and a good portion of combat characters, and some artillery, like dwarves. Against most of them, it's just irritating.

As for the spells. Yeah I tests are easy for HE to make. But you're forcing them from across the board, not in close combat where they can swing back. As another alternative, (and as I say this I'm acknowledging that I'm not as familiar with the DoC book), to use a fairly decent sized block of infantry, something relatively tough, or with a good save? Basically, instead of throwing hard to get Chaff at the unit with the banner, use a tar pit. Something that can suck up attacks without dying too fast, either through numbers, resilience, or both. Granted, this is DoC, and such a block won't be the cheapest in points, but it's got to be cheaper than a 40+ death star made of 15 point models. So if it's possible to tie up, than like in the chaff plan, go after objectives, or the rest of the army.

And to 626, if you talk to your regular opponents the way to talk to everyone here, I can see why they try to make broken lists against you. Maybe if you tone down the invective a bit, you might find people are willing to play friendlier style games against you.

 Mmmpi wrote:

As for the spells. Yeah I tests are easy for HE to make. But you're forcing them from across the board, not in close combat where they can swing back. As another alternative, (and as I say this I'm acknowledging that I'm not as familiar with the DoC book), to use a fairly decent sized block of infantry, something relatively tough, or with a good save?

Daemons of chaos do not have that unit.
They lack anything with a decent save, or that is cheap. Tough exists in only 2 unit, beast of nurgle and plague drones. Both of which lack static combat res that is needed to keep from vaporizing when they run into a unit with a 2++ save. Worse, both are init 2, making them very vulnerable to test or die.
Cheapest would be daemonettes, which at 9 points fight like slightly worse than high elf spearmen; who are also 9 points.
Daemonettes can get ASF from a T3 5++ save hero, for 140 points. Doesn't really stack up to 50 points for a 2++.

If daemon of chaos had something like, blue horrors (zombie like stats, without special rules), for like 5 points, then the banner wouldn't be such a problem, you would have a core choice to tank the banner block.
Sadly, just about any high elf unit stacks up against any daemon core unit and come out alright. It's just that high elves get much better synergy with characters and banners than daemons do; so what starts out as a slight advantage to high elves, ends with a massive advantage to high elves.
I've seen games of nothing but high elf core (and required general) absolutely trounce daemons. (like when 40 archers kill 10 bloodletters in melee).

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Because demons are ridiculously durable against S3 shots. Simply because wards are a thing.

You don't use wards vs. S3. You use armor and toughness, which are vastly more effective. Wards are only cost-effective vs. high S attacks. Look at Core Dwarfs with HA and T4 at 50% cheaper than Daemons with their T3 and Ward 5+. Dwarfs come out so far ahead it isn't even funny. Now, if you compared them to some GW-wielding unit then DoC would win. But vs. HE, the ward is far too expensive. Infinite HE Spearmen can go toe-to-toe with infinite DoC core just because they are so much cheaper, have a shield and LA, ASF, fight in extra rank(s). I'm not saying they will slaughter them by any means, but they sure as hell don't need a 2++ save, they don't need a save at all other than what they have.

Bloodletters are not the 7th ed versions which trounced nearly everything and which comprised 90% of all DoC armies. If you think DoC core is all that, just run it against some cheapy RNF from nearly any army. Just pile them against each other and start rolling dice and see what happens. In theory it's neato they have magic weapons and wards on core. But compare them to like, lizardmen who have high armor and great LD and 2 attacks on core. DoC has no choice but to take elite core that are only good at fighting other elites. Cheap core beats them for cost.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

They don't need it against any army.

It's just good against every army.

Saldiven wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

They don't need it against any army.

It's just good against every army.

Oh, they absolutely need it. At least in competitive play. The book forces you into a bannerblock and two frosties in that regard. White Lions, Swordsmasters and Dragon princes have a glaring weakness to direct damage and magic missile spells. The banner just takes that away.


Furthermore, against armies like Dark Elves, the banner is just useless. As the threats aren't magical.

Wasn't there a thread here a while ago about KB vs the banner? That Bloodletters with KB killed the elves before they got a save because they were slain instantly, because they weren't wounded it didn't activate the banner, thus killing them dead? It might be wrong but I thought I saw it somewhere

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

If daemon of chaos had something like, blue horrors (zombie like stats, without special rules), for like 5 points, then the banner wouldn't be such a problem, you would have a core choice to tank the banner block.
Sadly, just about any high elf unit stacks up against any daemon core unit and come out alright. It's just that high elves get much better synergy with characters and banners than daemons do; so what starts out as a slight advantage to high elves, ends with a massive advantage to high elves.
I've seen games of nothing but high elf core (and required general) absolutely trounce daemons. (like when 40 archers kill 10 bloodletters in melee).

Sadly I don't think even a Blue Horror type unit would work all that well... The problem with big cheap infantry tarpits is that they're a giant PitA to move about as the get too unwieldy. (such a hypothetical unit is likely going to be 'Goblin sized' with 40-50+ bodies since they'll die in droves and explode another 5-7'ish easily on DI tests) They'd also almost certainly keep the standard M4, thus giving the movement advantage firmly to the HE's.
Vs. a giant brick of 30-40 Lions w/Banner you'd probably be able to catch them and pin them down for a while, but the units I've continuously had problems avoiding are the 20-25 strong Lions or the Cav bus builds. Both of which tend to chuckle at large M4 infantry bricks.

Taking a unit of 2-3 Beasts and conga lining them works wonders, if they don't get Boltered/magic'ed to death first. (stupid Banishment!)
Hell, I've even seen a local Daemon player do that with a unit of Plaguebearers! It looks absolutely stupid seeing 25 guys in a strait line, but it did the trick in the end, though the HE player whined the entire time about borderline cheating...

Furries work, provided they can avoid the likes of Shem's or Ring of Fury or any real direct damage spell.
Screamers can make-do, but typically like to be trying to remove those annoying Reavers, Sisters, Bolters and/or Eagles with their fly-by strikes or charges.
Cacobombing is the outright best solution, but ends up drawing cries of OP cheddar from pretty much every HE player.

Going strait-up mono-Slaanesh or Slaanesh heavy in an MSU set-up is the ideal way to 'deal' with the HE's and their Crutchbanner gimmicks. Sprinkle in a few Beasts and maybe a Khannon if you expect/see Frosties regularly and go too it.
The game is still pretty boring as the DoC player just feeds the banner unit and runs away while picking off that they can, while the HE player doesn't have any big pts-heavy targets to go after beyond a possible Keeper and 1-2 Slaanesh Grinders.



@Mmmpi: I have tried multiple times to politely ask the local HE players to not bring their 'A-lists' vs. my poor Tzeentch Daemons, at the very least to please leave the BotWD at home because it makes for a mind numbingly boring game. They just laugh and play the "it's codex legal - deal with it and l2p noob!"
They do this to every DoC player on the grounds that we deserve whatever we get because we apparently broke 7th edition.

My army was never designed as a "Tournament" army, not to mention it got hosed badly by the new DoC book itself. And I'm not about to go out and buy a bunch of models I don't like one bit just to play a still rather one-sided match-up.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

They don't need it against any army.

It's just good against every army.

Oh, they absolutely need it. At least in competitive play. The book forces you into a bannerblock and two frosties in that regard. White Lions, Swordsmasters and Dragon princes have a glaring weakness to direct damage and magic missile spells. The banner just takes that away.


Furthermore, against armies like Dark Elves, the banner is just useless. As the threats aren't magical.

BS.

The book doesn't force you into anything.

The BotWD is a crutch.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Oh, they absolutely need it. At least in competitive play. The book forces you into a bannerblock and two frosties in that regard. White Lions, Swordsmasters and Dragon princes have a glaring weakness to direct damage and magic missile spells. The banner just takes that away.
Furthermore, against armies like Dark Elves, the banner is just useless. As the threats aren't magical.

MR also solves that direct damage problem, as does the high magic lore attribute.
You don't need the banner to shrug off 2D6 S4 hits.

-Matt

therealsuperman wrote:
Wasn't there a thread here a while ago about KB vs the banner? That Bloodletters with KB killed the elves before they got a save because they were slain instantly, because they weren't wounded it didn't activate the banner, thus killing them dead? It might be wrong but I thought I saw it somewhere

I had brought it up a while ago, but KB allows a ward. The banner gives a ward.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

I don't understand the bits underlined, in one part you are saying that Daemons should stop moaning and learn how to handle the banner block using their army, E.G think about their army build, then the next line down you are saying that High Elves don't have to think about there army build because they *NEED* this one item and they *NEED* Frost Phoenix's. This is a very hypocritical way to think about it isn't it? That Daemons need to L2P and avoid this massive block (Which usually contains a good 500pts at least of an army, limiting the amount of VP's scored) and have to think about there list when coming up against High Elves, then to say that High Elves need to do this certain list or they are ''unplayable'' competitively (I call BS on that, as a competitive Wood Elf player since before the New Book, being competitive isn't always about having the best save...) is a very large leap. Are you saying High Elves are a terrible book and only have these options as good, or are you trying to say other cut throat lists would beat them unless they play this specific build? Because they are not the same thing, some units are inherently bad (E.G Gutter Runners) and i cannot think of a single High Elf unit that is that bad, although, of course, as i have never participated in any large scale tournaments, my opinions are invalid here of course...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

I don't understand the bits underlined, in one part you are saying that Daemons should stop moaning and learn how to handle the banner block using their army, E.G think about their army build, then the next line down you are saying that High Elves don't have to think about there army build because they *NEED* this one item and they *NEED* Frost Phoenix's. This is a very hypocritical way to think about it isn't it? That Daemons need to L2P and avoid this massive block (Which usually contains a good 500pts at least of an army, limiting the amount of VP's scored) and have to think about there list when coming up against High Elves, then to say that High Elves need to do this certain list or they are ''unplayable'' competitively (I call BS on that, as a competitive Wood Elf player since before the New Book, being competitive isn't always about having the best save...) is a very large leap. Are you saying High Elves are a terrible book and only have these options as good, or are you trying to say other cut throat lists would beat them unless they play this specific build? Because they are not the same thing, some units are inherently bad (E.G Gutter Runners) and i cannot think of a single High Elf unit that is that bad, although, of course, as i have never participated in any large scale tournaments, my opinions are invalid here of course...

I'm saying that High Elves are a bad book, with amazing elements. Which are items like the Banner and Frosties. However, compare them to other books, and you'll notice how narrow the competitive options are. They can't even run the full fast cav list.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

I don't understand the bits underlined, in one part you are saying that Daemons should stop moaning and learn how to handle the banner block using their army, E.G think about their army build, then the next line down you are saying that High Elves don't have to think about there army build because they *NEED* this one item and they *NEED* Frost Phoenix's. This is a very hypocritical way to think about it isn't it? That Daemons need to L2P and avoid this massive block (Which usually contains a good 500pts at least of an army, limiting the amount of VP's scored) and have to think about there list when coming up against High Elves, then to say that High Elves need to do this certain list or they are ''unplayable'' competitively (I call BS on that, as a competitive Wood Elf player since before the New Book, being competitive isn't always about having the best save...) is a very large leap. Are you saying High Elves are a terrible book and only have these options as good, or are you trying to say other cut throat lists would beat them unless they play this specific build? Because they are not the same thing, some units are inherently bad (E.G Gutter Runners) and i cannot think of a single High Elf unit that is that bad, although, of course, as i have never participated in any large scale tournaments, my opinions are invalid here of course...

I'm saying that High Elves are a bad book, with amazing elements. Which are items like the Banner and Frosties. However, compare them to other books, and you'll notice how narrow the competitive options are. They can't even run the full fast cav list.

Not sure if serious, or just trolling...

But then, I'd hazard a guess that you think the new DoC book is well balanced near-perfection.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The Demon Book is pretty good. You just have to think when you're going up against High Elves. Or, and this is just a suggestion, don't throw your entire army at the unit with the Banner.

And to be frank once more, High Elves don't just need the banner against Demons. They need it against all armies.

I don't understand the bits underlined, in one part you are saying that Daemons should stop moaning and learn how to handle the banner block using their army, E.G think about their army build, then the next line down you are saying that High Elves don't have to think about there army build because they *NEED* this one item and they *NEED* Frost Phoenix's. This is a very hypocritical way to think about it isn't it? That Daemons need to L2P and avoid this massive block (Which usually contains a good 500pts at least of an army, limiting the amount of VP's scored) and have to think about there list when coming up against High Elves, then to say that High Elves need to do this certain list or they are ''unplayable'' competitively (I call BS on that, as a competitive Wood Elf player since before the New Book, being competitive isn't always about having the best save...) is a very large leap. Are you saying High Elves are a terrible book and only have these options as good, or are you trying to say other cut throat lists would beat them unless they play this specific build? Because they are not the same thing, some units are inherently bad (E.G Gutter Runners) and i cannot think of a single High Elf unit that is that bad, although, of course, as i have never participated in any large scale tournaments, my opinions are invalid here of course...

I'm saying that High Elves are a bad book, with amazing elements. Which are items like the Banner and Frosties. However, compare them to other books, and you'll notice how narrow the competitive options are. They can't even run the full fast cav list.

Not sure if serious, or just trolling...

But then, I'd hazard a guess that you think the new DoC book is well balanced near-perfection.

I never said that.

But, answer me this. How often do you see lists outside of the double phoenix White Lion Banner unit, the Alarielle Light Coven, or the Princebus. Because, I've never seen ANY list in the new book that doesn't use them. The last one can get by without phoenixes, but that's it. If a book shoots itself in the foot without certain elements, it's a bad book. Especially if you compare it to Dark and Wood Elves. Which are actually very good books.

The fact is, that the High elf book isn't that well written. Elven steeds in the book aren't actually fast cav. Core is bland. Special is Meh, apart from three choices. Rare has two options worth taking. The book basically means that 600 points of your army will, more often than not, not contribute to the game, unless your entire core is made of reavers. When the book first came out, it was meh. And when Dark Elves came out, they just made it utterly redundant. There is nothing the High Elf book does, that the other two won't do better.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
But, answer me this. How often do you see lists outside of the double phoenix White Lion Banner unit, the Alarielle Light Coven, or the Princebus.

Players are really smart. I'm continually amazed at the power of group thought. Especially thanks to the internet.

People play the BEST combinations. That doesn't mean the non-best is bad. It means the best is best. If you have the choice of an overpowered item with no side-effects that makes you essentially immune to one army and incredibly strong against all the rest, you're going to take it. Unless you simply want to play fluff or want to give the enemy a chance.

Ogres don't have to take Ironblasters. Empire don't have to take Stanks. Dwarfs don't have to take Gyrocopters. Skaven don't have to take warp lightning cannons. etc

But you will see them in most competitive armies above a certain point level. It's clear when stuff is...good. But an ironblaster doesn't shut down an entire WHFB army no matter what you take.

People used to take Teclis and book of hoeth and whatever else and be like +3PD with no miscasts and they would say you just need to use strategy. And HE suck without him. But that was clearly not true. They just recognized OP combinations and took them. It's what people do in competitive games. Whether you consider WHFB a super competitive game is another story and whether you should go TFG on every rule and item and strategy. You certainly can. But the game makes it clear in its very earliest pages it wasn't designed for that.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
But, answer me this. How often do you see lists outside of the double phoenix White Lion Banner unit, the Alarielle Light Coven, or the Princebus.

Players are really smart. I'm continually amazed at the power of group thought. Especially thanks to the internet.

People play the BEST combinations. That doesn't mean the non-best is bad. It means the best is best. If you have the choice of an overpowered item with no side-effects that makes you essentially immune to one army and incredibly strong against all the rest, you're going to take it. Unless you simply want to play fluff or want to give the enemy a chance.

Ogres don't have to take Ironblasters. Empire don't have to take Stanks. Dwarfs don't have to take Gyrocopters. Skaven don't have to take warp lightning cannons. etc

But you will see them in most competitive armies above a certain point level. It's clear when stuff is...good. But an ironblaster doesn't shut down an entire WHFB army no matter what you take.

People used to take Teclis and book of hoeth and whatever else and be like +3PD with no miscasts and they would say you just need to use strategy. And HE suck without him. But that was clearly not true. They just recognized OP combinations and took them. It's what people do in competitive games. Whether you consider WHFB a super competitive game is another story and whether you should go TFG on every rule and item and strategy. You certainly can. But the game makes it clear in its very earliest pages it wasn't designed for that.

You miss my point entirely. The reason people take those choices is that, for them to do well, against other armies designed to work at the same level, they get shoehorned into a set list style. You don't see people taking hordes of 30+ Swordsmasters to the same type of event people take any Dark Elf list to. Because doing so is effectively shooting yourself in the feet. The book itself is underwhelming, bar a few characters, items and units. If you look at a book like Empire, Warriors, or Dark Elves, you'll immediately notice a difference. Those three latter books are well written, with each choice being useful and well rounded. Which is something that the high elf book doesn't have. That is why the book is subpar. Not because of the items, the monsters, the characters or even the fact that they're the only elf book without fast cav characters. The fact that they are less than effective as a whole.

I understood your point. I dismissed it because it's not true. People said the exact same thing about old Teclis. They said the exact same thing about old Bloodletters and loremaster Heralds. TK are underwhelming. O&G are underwhelming. But they still do okay without having an item that is absurdly OP.

If you want to do the pepsi challenge, get a decent HE player using BOTWD and play them with a DoC army and post the battle report. It's very clear that you state there shouldn't be a problem. Just proxy it all or use a GW set. You'd be doing the community a service, because after 3 pages or so, there seem to be very few people who know definitive ways to thump HE banner. But you seem to have it under control.

Oh do tell how my Forsaken and Helstriders have suddenly become useful and well rounded, because personally I'd LOVE to use these lovely models but they are completely useless. Especially against High Elves! A unit of Helstriders charges into *any* unit of Elves, they will be butchered to the man, or shot to pincushions before they get there.

What is wrong with Archers as Core? I main Wood Elves and you will find a good 300pts of my core is dedicated to Glade Guard, and while Glade Guard get all these fancy arrows, we also cost 6 points more then a High Elf Archer. Glade Riders are comparable to Reavers, and Eternal Guard may beat Spearment but stick them against Phoenix Guard and they don't stand a chance at equal points. I refuse to believe High Elves are ''unplayable'' without those choices, have you even read the Beast Man codex? Tomb Kings? Even in the strictest of minds High Elves rank roughly in the middle of the power tier, but if that isn't good enough for you so that you *have* to cling to OP Items to make your game then i doubt your playing the right army.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Oh do tell how my Forsaken and Helstriders have suddenly become useful and well rounded, because personally I'd LOVE to use these lovely models but they are completely useless. Especially against High Elves! A unit of Helstriders charges into *any* unit of Elves, they will be butchered to the man, or shot to pincushions before they get there.

What is wrong with Archers as Core? I main Wood Elves and you will find a good 300pts of my core is dedicated to Glade Guard, and while Glade Guard get all these fancy arrows, we also cost 6 points more then a High Elf Archer. Glade Riders are comparable to Reavers, and Eternal Guard may beat Spearment but stick them against Phoenix Guard and they don't stand a chance at equal points. I refuse to believe High Elves are ''unplayable'' without those choices, have you even read the Beast Man codex? Tomb Kings? Even in the strictest of minds High Elves rank roughly in the middle of the power tier, but if that isn't good enough for you so that you *have* to cling to OP Items to make your game then i doubt your playing the right army.

High Elves don't routinely roflstomp "Tournaments" because they're not an army that has the ability to earn reliable 20-0 victories like WoC, Ogres or 'The List' from DoC do, therefore they must be the absolute suck and require shoehorning into a specific set of units/items to even compete.

Who cares that HE's are up there alongside VC's & Empire as the overall well rounded/balanced across the board books of 8th ed, where almost every choice is readily playable. (Tiranoc Chariots come to mind as pretty awful, while Seaguard are slightly overcosted & Spears are just plain bad across every book this edition)

Apparently for some that's not nearly good enough though, so poor Daemon players get to keep on eating the High Elves giant poop buffet because we apparently 'deserve it.'

Look The HE book is well balanced outside of BoTWD. Have you ever seen a phoenix solo an army? But to say we are worse than Most anyone is absurd. Also I run a Ellyrion list to great effect so yes we can run all-cav.

Currently the power ranking looks something like this IMHO

1st Teir
WOC, Skaven
2nd Tier
High Elves, Dark Elves, Dwarfs, Ogres, Wood Elves, DOC
3rd Tier
Empire, Vampires, Brettonians
4th Tier
Orcs and Goblins, Lizards
5th Tier
Beastmen Tomb Kings

The fact is High Elves are mobile and tank better than the other elven races. Add to this highly specialized Elite Infantry, Good Fast Cav, Core 2+ heavy cav, Frost birds, bolters, and Book of Hoeth. You have a very well rounded army.

BoTWD Tilts the scales MASSIVELY against WoC, Skaven, VC, TK. It neuters demons. Also it effects Empire, Dwarves wood elves.

The ability to ignore damage from wards and magical attacks with a 2++ ward is too big especially when we can make a 3++ ward without it.

Also if you play against demons just change the banner out for something less contentious( usually i go for ranger standard).

Let's not even get started on tiers, yeah? No one agrees on them (Skaven better than Dark Elves and High Elves? Not in my experience, and not by a mile), and they're all so close anyway. It's not like 7th edition, where Daemons, Vampires, and Dark Elves were so far above everyone else.

I think we can agree my poor Beastmen aren't on the same tier as Skaven, High Elves or Lizards. :(

 streamdragon wrote:
I think we can agree my poor Beastmen aren't on the same tier as Skaven, High Elves or Lizards. :(

Beastmen are on their own special tier, located somewhere close to Brettonia's tier.

Beastmen are a pretty significant outlier, yeah. And Tomb Kings. Brettonia is an old book, but I see them do really well at tournaments. And only one real build. But whatever.

Orcs & Goblins are a perfect example, though. They're not an amazing army by any means, but they don't perform that much worse than, say, High Elves or Warriors of Chaos overall.
8th edition was a fantastic equalizer.
...except for Beastmen. And Tomb Kings.

Anyway. Yeah. High Elves certainly have units/characters/items that are better than the rest of the book. But that does not mean that the rest of the book is terrible.
Let's say a unit with a good balance of cost and performance is a 5 out of 10. White Lions and Frost Phoenii are 6's. Aaand the Banner is a 10. No-brainer. Worst case scenario, it's "only" MR5 against magic missiles and direct damage spells for 50pts.

Warpsolution wrote:
Let's not even get started on tiers, yeah? No one agrees on them (Skaven better than Dark Elves and High Elves? Not in my experience, and not by a mile), and they're all so close anyway. It's not like 7th edition, where Daemons, Vampires, and Dark Elves were so far above everyone else.

Fair enough.

the point even if you look at my personal opinion there are a bunch of pretty good books and The high elf book is one of em. Heck the only bad units are tiranoc chariot and flamespyre phoenix and they can be used even at that.

Warpsolution wrote:
Anyway. Yeah. High Elves certainly have units/characters/items that are better than the rest of the book. But that does not mean that the rest of the book is terrible.
Let's say a unit with a good balance of cost and performance is a 5 out of 10. White Lions and Frost Phoenii are 6's. Aaand the Banner is a 10. No-brainer. Worst case scenario, it's "only" MR5 against magic missiles and direct damage spells for 50pts.

I will happily concede that it's the best written elf book. But that in no way means that it's any good. It's meh. Average, middle of the road. On par with books like OnG and TK.

If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered. As much as I hate the ETC environment, I'm going to use it as an example. There were 25 high elf players. All of which took the banner. 20 of which took frosthearts. If the book was as good as, say, the other elf books, you'd get more variety. Because out of those 25 lists, you have a choice of white lion banner unit, or cav bannerbus. Which was my entire point. The book shoehorns you into those kind of lists, unless you're a certain person who runs 4 Frosthearts.

I'm not arguing that the banner is bent, just that it brings the high elf book to a level where the infantry can get to the centre of the board and do what they need to, whilst keeping the level 4 at a point where they can do they need to.