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 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Anyway. Yeah. High Elves certainly have units/characters/items that are better than the rest of the book. But that does not mean that the rest of the book is terrible.
Let's say a unit with a good balance of cost and performance is a 5 out of 10. White Lions and Frost Phoenii are 6's. Aaand the Banner is a 10. No-brainer. Worst case scenario, it's "only" MR5 against magic missiles and direct damage spells for 50pts.

I will happily concede that it's the best written elf book. But that in no way means that it's any good. It's meh. Average, middle of the road. On par with books like OnG and TK.

If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered. As much as I hate the ETC environment, I'm going to use it as an example. There were 25 high elf players. All of which took the banner. 20 of which took frosthearts. If the book was as good as, say, the other elf books, you'd get more variety. Because out of those 25 lists, you have a choice of white lion banner unit, or cav bannerbus. Which was my entire point. The book shoehorns you into those kind of lists, unless you're a certain person who runs 4 Frosthearts.

I'm not arguing that the banner is bent, just that it brings the high elf book to a level where the infantry can get to the centre of the board and do what they need to, whilst keeping the level 4 at a point where they can do they need to.

And there are a number of High Elf players, especially over on the HE forums who don't use the Banner at all, despite the cries of "it's mandatory for us to even stand a semblance of a chance!"
MSU armies, or Phoenix Guard/DP armies don't rely on that crutch and those armies work fine. (PG armies especially so, as it's so easy to give them a 3++) Back them up with the staples of Reavers, Bolters, a smattering of Archers, Sisters, Frostie, etc... and those forces do the job.

The Banner has simply made a goodly number of HE players both lazy and obnoxious, in the same way that Grey Knights made so many players lazy in 5th, or how the previous DoC book make players lazy through Master of Sorcery Tzheralds + 'Letter brick = profit?!

Saldiven wrote:Beastmen are on their own special tier, located somewhere close to Brettonia's tier.

Who?

Warpsolution wrote:Beastmen are a pretty significant outlier, yeah. And Tomb Kings. Brettonia is an old book, but I see them do really well at tournaments. And only one real build. But whatever.

Orcs & Goblins are a perfect example, though. They're not an amazing army by any means, but they don't perform that much worse than, say, High Elves or Warriors of Chaos overall.
8th edition was a fantastic equalizer.
...except for Beastmen. And Tomb Kings.

I still <3 my beastmen though. Blenderbulls are always hilarious. I'm afraid I'm not familar enough with O&G to say, but are they really on par with High Elves (who just seem so superbly effective in every phase) or Warriors (who are just tough as nails)? I have a friend I haven't seen in ages who plays them, so I'm curious what units he should/would be looking to field if we ever played again.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter. And it is. Without them, the book is where it should be.
If you want even the tiniest chance to prove your point, put up a battle report or two, in which you don't take the Banner, and get mercilessly crushed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
I'm not familar enough with O&G to say, but are they really on par with High Elves (who just seem so superbly effective in every phase) or Warriors (who are just tough as nails)? I have a friend I haven't seen in ages who plays them, so I'm curious what units he should/would be looking to field if we ever played again.

O&G are not on par with High Elves or Warriors of Chaos. They are distinctly below them. But the difference between a crap 8th edition book and an incredible one is a lot smaller than it used to be. That's my point.

Most O&G players bring the Big 'Un Savagestar with a Shaman to carry the Shrunken Head. Then it's killer chaff (Manglers and Wolf Chariots) and war machines. Sprinkle in Night Goblins, Wolf Riders, Squig Herds, and Trolls to taste.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter. And it is. Without them, the book is where it should be.
If you want even the tiniest chance to prove your point, put up a battle report or two, in which you don't take the Banner, and get mercilessly crushed.

Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Excuse us if we do not instantly believe such an anecdote. So i will employ the same tactic i would on the many web chat rooms and say ''Pics or GTFO''.

then again, any army can beat any army with some good dice. Last edition Wood Elves were considered amongst the worst army and Daemons the best, but i can claim a few wins against Daemons. So maybe you are telling it true, but if you are honestly comparing the High Elf book without Banner to the Beastman book in normal circumstances then i am forced to seriously doubt your judgement.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter.

^This. And it's what I said earlier. When people see something is OP, they include it. Especially in a tournament that is specifically a...tournament. It's a competitive environment.

Again, in 7th DoC Every Single Army had Bloodletters. Because they were that good. It wasn't that the book fell to pieces without them (they got a huge nerf in 8th and are still playable). It's just that when GW hands you a bazooka for a squirt gun fight, you use the bazooka.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter. And it is. Without them, the book is where it should be.
If you want even the tiniest chance to prove your point, put up a battle report or two, in which you don't take the Banner, and get mercilessly crushed.

Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Ok, here it is.

Comments like this, and the "reasoning" behind them, is why I've just put you on ignore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you took the banner and Frosthearts out, the book would be severely neutered.

This whole line of thinking is a logical fallacy. The Banner and the Phoenii don't make the book playable. They're just so easily auto-included awesomesauce that, without them, the book feels a lot lighter.

^This. And it's what I said earlier. When people see something is OP, they include it. Especially in a tournament that is specifically a...tournament. It's a competitive environment.

Again, in 7th DoC Every Single Army had Bloodletters. Because they were that good. It wasn't that the book fell to pieces without them (they got a huge nerf in 8th and are still playable). It's just that when GW hands you a bazooka for a squirt gun fight, you use the bazooka.

And it's the same reason that every army in the current DoC book uses Beasts of Nurgle and Skull Cannons. This doesn't change the fact that some people have won or placed highly in some pretty big tournaments with mono-slaneesh and mono-tzeentch.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

Warpsolution wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
I'm not familar enough with O&G to say, but are they really on par with High Elves (who just seem so superbly effective in every phase) or Warriors (who are just tough as nails)? I have a friend I haven't seen in ages who plays them, so I'm curious what units he should/would be looking to field if we ever played again.

O&G are not on par with High Elves or Warriors of Chaos. They are distinctly below them. But the difference between a crap 8th edition book and an incredible one is a lot smaller than it used to be. That's my point.

Most O&G players bring the Big 'Un Savagestar with a Shaman to carry the Shrunken Head. Then it's killer chaff (Manglers and Wolf Chariots) and war machines. Sprinkle in Night Goblins, Wolf Riders, Squig Herds, and Trolls to taste.

Ah, fair enough, I think I misunderstood your original post. I definitely do agree that the books are decently close, and honestly even Beastmen aren't as bad as I joke about them being. I gave our Lizardman player a run for his money with a Doomblender and double mino block list. Doombulls are pretty nasty...

I mean, I still lost, but not as badly as I expected to.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So against really bad players, the BotWD can be dealt with? That isn't saying much.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So against really bad players, the BotWD can be dealt with? That isn't saying much.

This was at a competitive event. High end tables.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So against really bad players, the BotWD can be dealt with? That isn't saying much.

This was at a competitive event. High end tables.

Then what were you doing their?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've tabled them with an ungor combat army, when they didn't take the banner.

Really, now. That's something I'd like to hear about. But it doesn't even begin to prove your point, since that army doesn't rely on magic attacks. If you tabled them without it, you could have tabled them with it.

It's not so much the magical attacks, but I tabled high elves with ungor.

But if you want something with magical attacks; I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So against really bad players, the BotWD can be dealt with? That isn't saying much.

Even with the scenario that TDA postulates, the likelihood of breaking the unit is microscopic. The HE player would have had to both fluff his attacks and fluff his ward saves. Even if the DoC player charges, with rear and flank units, the static combat resolution from the target unit should equal that of the charging units. Then it comes down to who does more wounds. If the BotWD unit in this case were in the unit of common choice, White Lions, the HE player should still have won combat.

And despite that, the DoC player had to dedicate some 40-50% of his entire army's points to attack at most 25% of his opponent's army's points, and the opponent had to be such an incredibly bad player that he allowed said unit to be attacked from three sides at once.

Sometimes I wonder if TDA even plays this game at all.

The banner? What banner? The banner can be just avoided until you consume everything else. Pardon me for my wording, I play Tyranids (warhammer 40k) and I like to eat stuff.

@ Experiment 626: You must have some really thoughtless people at your store, if during fun games HE's break out the banner on your Tzeentch army. Sorry you have that experience. (Unless every time you bring Kairos and take as many Elf-murder spells as you can.)

@ Thread: I'm not quite sure I buy the thought that the HE army is doomed without a Banner. It's probably 50 points under cost, solely because of the save vs. Magic Weapons.

However.

Food for thought.

- Ogre Banner allows you to move the spell away on a 2+ and power dice are wasted. It's about as good vs spells but no one complains.

- If BotWD is 50pts under cost, how undercost are Beasts of Nurgle and Skill Cannons? I think a guy bringing 8-12 Beasts in a list + 2 Cannons is every bit as much or more of a TFG than the BotWD star in a friendly game that asked for non-hard lists.

- I've been to 3 cons this year and not once seen Allarielle played at a tournament. I think that experience is local to your meta, 626

- A HE player who brings BotWD to a tournament or con is not exploiting a crutch, bad, skill-less, etc. He is bringing his best banner to help win. It's part of his book. People bring their best stuff to those things, don't be a jerk and belittle them or tanks their sports score if they are only trying for best chance to win.

-

"Glade Riders are comparable to Reavers, "

<- That isn't quite true. Glade riders come with spears, can ambush, and take arrows that make Ambush worthwhile because they can poison down/*fire enemies from behind. Reavers are nothing compared to Glade Riders. Mandatory ambush isnt that bad for what they get access to.

To be fair Runemaw (the ogre banner) is BSB only.


Reavers can have bows, spears and a 5++ save.

True.

If BotWD was 60 points and BSB only I'd call it balanced. That HE BSB would be one squishy dude.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
It's not so much the magical attacks

It is too about the magical attacks! How is it not? We're saying the Banner is too good. You're saying it isn't. And you offer proof as to why it's not...by telling us about a time when it's presence didn't matter at all?

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I broke a Banner of the World Dragon Bus in combat with Daemons. Drones in the side, Beasts and Chicken in the front, and Plaguebearers in the other side.

So that's like, what...38 wounds before Wards, on average? I don't know the Daemon book very well, honestly, so I'm assuming you had 5 Drones in contact, with 3 attacks+stomp+rider each, that you had 2 ranks of 3 Beasts, with 4 attacks+stomp each, that the LoC had 5 attacks+stomp, and that you had a horde of 30 'bearers, all in contact.
So that's...we'll say 7 wounds, to be generous.
And I'm pretty sure it's impossible to have that many Daemons in contact with them all at once anyway, but whatever.

Then the 'lions swing back for...11.5, after saves? And that's assuming that you're at a -1 to hit the Drones and the Beasts, and that you don't get re-rolls against the LoC.
Pretty sure I've been overly generous to the Daemon player, here, and they still come out solidly behind.
And then they'd have to roll bad again to fail their Stubborn break test.

I'm not saying it didn't happen. Just that it is absolutely worthless as proof that the Banner isn't awesome-sauce.

lliu wrote:
The banner? What banner? The banner can be just avoided until you consume everything else.

That's been a popular comment. But the counter is, Daemons are bad at the chaff-game, where High Elves are among the best.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
A HE player who brings BotWD to a tournament or con is not exploiting a crutch, bad, skill-less, etc. He is bringing his best banner to help win. It's part of his book. People bring their best stuff to those things, don't be a jerk and belittle them or tanks their sports score if they are only trying for best chance to win.

Agreed. Stop hating on the community who was given some seriously stupid tools. Hate on the guy who made the tool. And the individuals in that community who take all of this with poor grace and gloat over their opponents, claim it's totes fair, etc.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

- If BotWD is 50pts under cost, how undercost are Beasts of Nurgle and Skill Cannons? I think a guy bringing 8-12 Beasts in a list + 2 Cannons is every bit as much or more of a TFG than the BotWD star in a friendly game that asked for non-hard lists.

Skull Cannons should probably be in the 150-175 points range. (A 20-40% cost increase.)

Beasts should be in the 80 points range, I would think; that's a 33% increase in their current cost, if memory serves.

But, honestly, points values are totally messed up in the DoC book across the board. The current iteration of the Bloodletter shouldn't be more than 12 points. Bloodcrushers are probably 5-10 points over-priced. There are other examples (like just about all the Slanesh chariots), but those are the ones that jump out at me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thunderfrog wrote:
True.

If BotWD was 60 points and BSB only I'd call it balanced. That HE BSB would be one squishy dude.

I've been saying this exact same thing since the HE book came out. The only reason the BotWD is overpowered is because it can be taken as a unit upgrade. If it were BSB only, it would still be powerful and effective, but an army like DoC would actually have a chance to kill the unit by directing attacks at the BSB and hoping to get through the 2++ a couple of times (still hard to do, but not the same thing as having to get through the 2++ thirty-plus times).

 Thunderfrog wrote:
If BotWD was 60 points and BSB only I'd call it balanced. That HE BSB would be one squishy dude.

You could call it balanced, but it wouldn't be balanced. The Runemaw works vs. Magic Missiles and DD that specifically target the unit, i.e., not template DD. IF it works, the caster shrugs and targets someone else. Big deal. Those are gigantic differences. They aren't even worth mentioning together. Near total immunity vs. magic weapons (heroes/lords likely), an entire race, parts of other races, DD, Magic Missiles, all on a non-BSB. And it even gives dragons stubborn just to lol in your face.

- A HE player who brings BotWD to a tournament or con is not exploiting a crutch, bad, skill-less, etc. He is bringing his best banner to help win. It's part of his book. People bring their best stuff to those things, don't be a jerk and belittle them or tanks their sports score if they are only trying for best chance to win.

TFGs are TFGs. Read page 3. That is, THREE. In the BRB. The BRB is the definitive book for WHFB play. You can't play your TFG game without getting past page 3. You read it at some point. Read the Spirit of the Game section again.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
@ Experiment 626: You must have some really thoughtless people at your store, if during fun games HE's break out the banner on your Tzeentch army. Sorry you have that experience. (Unless every time you bring Kairos and take as many Elf-murder spells as you can.)

Well, yes, most of the local HE players are whiney girls who try to argue that HE's are near impotent without the banner, or else are the type who'll only ever play the most optimal combos.
DoC have become a non-factor at my LGS, as HE's are aplenty, as well as Dark Elves and a couple new Wood Elves. It's a bad time overall to be a Daemon player as Elves of all flavours tend to have a big leg-up on the current DoC book.

For the record, I don't use Kairos as I find mono Tzeentch is the worst possible list to take him in. His supports either offer almost nothing that can't already be gotten, (Final Trans & Gateway are often enough vs. non BotWD opponents), and elf heavy metas especially have fun murdering his physically weak @$$ with all their shooting!
Mono Tzeentch needs beatsticks more than it needs yet another wizard, and the E.Blade LoC amply provides!

 Thunderfrog wrote:
@ Thread: I'm not quite sure I buy the thought that the HE army is doomed without a Banner. It's probably 50 points under cost, solely because of the save vs. Magic Weapons.

I think 75pts would be just about right. A Dragon Prince deathstar would still be possible, but DP's with a 2++ vs. all magical damage is more or less just pure frustrating than the absolute unit blender White Lions are. Even Daemons can hold up a DP bus as it's damage output for the most part is tied entirely to its charge and the likes of an Ogre Blade/great weapon/halberd Character(s). Otherwise you need 1-2+ castings of Wyssan's to keep reliably rolling the enemy.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
However.

Food for thought.

- Ogre Banner allows you to move the spell away on a 2+ and power dice are wasted. It's about as good vs spells but no one complains.

People do complain about Runemaw, but the fact is;
1. You can still pound the crap out of the unit in shooting/combat. Flanking it, or in the case of Daemons, say charging a big unit of 8-10 Hounds up their bums is still doable.
2. The one spell Ogres fear the most ignores the Runemaw's protection.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
- If BotWD is 50pts under cost, how undercost are Beasts of Nurgle and Skill Cannons? I think a guy bringing 8-12 Beasts in a list + 2 Cannons is every bit as much or more of a TFG than the BotWD star in a friendly game that asked for non-hard lists.

Beasts should easily be at least 75-80pts per. Most Daemon players would still take them even if they were still the same 100pts/model they were in the last book. (though 100pts each would be slightly overcosted...)
Khannons should probably be 165-180pts. Still a little cheap at the 165-170 range, but keep in mind these guys almost never get the benefits of the General's IP or BSB, while the harshest of the 4 God storms rips the thing to shreds when it connects.

But keep in mind that the same book that gives us woefully undercosted Beasts & Khannons also gives us woeful crap like Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers, Flamers & the Hellflayer/Exalted Seeker chariots!
BotWD on the other hand is a frankly game breaking item in a book full of already solid choices.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
- I've been to 3 cons this year and not once seen Allarielle played at a tournament. I think that experience is local to your meta, 626

Alarielle is like Horrors - only those who've given them a shot really (ab)use them. Look at how almost no comps hit Horrors yet, but savagely go after pretty much all Nurgle builds. Plus, there's still a number of events which still ban named characters.

Everqueen lists tend to be gunliney Light Covens, or else you run Alith to give your deathstar Swiftstride plus a safer Ld10 General.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
- A HE player who brings BotWD to a tournament or con is not exploiting a crutch, bad, skill-less, etc. He is bringing his best banner to help win. It's part of his book. People bring their best stuff to those things, don't be a jerk and belittle them or tanks their sports score if they are only trying for best chance to win.

No, you're still using your crutch.
In a 'Tournament' setting however, it's all about taking the biggest crutches/no-brainers as those give you the most reliable odds of winning. When everyone is playing a version of 'Crutchhammer', then complaints should be at a minimum, whether it's High Elves and their Bannerstars, or DoC with Caco Choir/Beast spam, or Runemaw Gutstars + double Ironblaster, or whatever the filth of choice is.

BotWD is still a huge throat jab to Daemons, even in Tournament settings, but most Daemon players in such an environment almost certainly expect it, and thus the majority of DoC Tournament lists are in fact built first and foremost as BotWD counter-lists.