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 HawaiiMatt wrote:
What are guard players using for anti-air?

As for the lack of Vendettas, could that be tied to the lack of guard in top tables at BAO?

I dont think so. I dont believe that guard players in BAO have played many vendettas. Players in ETC also dont plan to field almost any. The guard lists are build mostly around Pask with Lemans supported by psychic powers and the by another Lemans or infantry blobs (either behind aegis or conscripting their way to the front). For antiair the guard uses nothing in particular at the moment. Prescience can help, especially on punishers...

Poly Ranger wrote:
This is why I put the last sentence in "with 30 dangerous units, you don't need to worry about ob sec, as you will be scoring all over the place anyway".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And also why I didn't include coatez in the list.

Yea, didn't mean for it to come off as a correction, more of a clarification for those who didn't know. I meant no offense.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
The Vendetta got a buff in 7th. Most AA weapons got a huge nerf with the change to interceptor and vehicles overall got a better damage table.

Yeh - the quad gun went from being common to one of the poorest guns in the game for its points!

Is it? It's still cheaper than a Hydra or Stalker

 Sir Arun wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
The Vendetta got a buff in 7th. Most AA weapons got a huge nerf with the change to interceptor and vehicles overall got a better damage table.

Yeh - the quad gun went from being common to one of the poorest guns in the game for its points!

Is it? It's still cheaper than a Hydra or Stalker

And noone plays Hydras for a reason...

 Gangrel767 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
This is why I put the last sentence in "with 30 dangerous units, you don't need to worry about ob sec, as you will be scoring all over the place anyway".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And also why I didn't include coatez in the list.

Yea, didn't mean for it to come off as a correction, more of a clarification for those who didn't know. I meant no offense.

Fair enough. My bad in misinterpreting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
The Vendetta got a buff in 7th. Most AA weapons got a huge nerf with the change to interceptor and vehicles overall got a better damage table.

Yeh - the quad gun went from being common to one of the poorest guns in the game for its points!

Is it? It's still cheaper than a Hydra or Stalker

True. I still would take neither of them. 50pts is ok if you KNOW you'll be facing multiple flyers, eldar or DE AND you were already taking a fortification. Considering the cheapest is the ADL I would rather find the 25pts if using marines to field a skyhammer talon.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

stripeydave wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
170 points for 3 TL lasguns on a flyer. That's about all the reasoning you need.

When you put it like that it sounds massively overpriced...

To you, maybe. Not when comparing other options to get 3 Lascannons. On a flyer. That were quite strongly buffed in 7th.

You missed that the OP said "3 TL Lasguns" for 170 points, which is definitely not points efficient. Good thing he meant Lascannons, not Lasguns.

SJ

I often mix the two terms up as well - good thing I'm not a 40k general then!

"Look out guys, two lasguns at nine o' clock!"

*burst in laughter*

*burst in pieces*

Just to add some clarification on a totally unnecessary topic: I (OP) did not mix up lascannons with lasguns


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 Lothar wrote:
Vendetta is quite a bad choice after the nerf. If you dont believe me, believe the guys building their army lists in ETC. From all the countries only ONE guard player actually fields vendettas...

Could you please get us a link to that stuff? Including army lists? Thx.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

4. if you want more, then you can always take a YY pt hq to unlock more, which also can give you another ML as well as some more servo skulls.

What does this line exactly mean? Abbreviations are evil.

Poly Ranger wrote:
50pts is ok if you KNOW you'll be facing multiple flyers, eldar or DE AND you were already taking a fortification. Considering the cheapest is the ADL I would rather find the 25pts if using marines to field a skyhammer talon.

Flyers AND skimmers, friend.

Don't forget that.

When playing against Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau or Necrons, this weapon will definitely be useful.

Yeh that's why I put eldar and DE... totally forgot crons despite the fact they are my second army lol. Rarely face tau tanks mind. Its usually riptides and suits with pathfinders, kroot and firewarriors.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
50pts is ok if you KNOW you'll be facing multiple flyers, eldar or DE AND you were already taking a fortification. Considering the cheapest is the ADL I would rather find the 25pts if using marines to field a skyhammer talon.

Flyers AND skimmers, friend.
Don't forget that.
When playing against Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau or Necrons, this weapon will definitely be useful.

So hydras are good then right?
I think the problem is that 4 S7 shots isn't good enough against the AV12 flyers or skimmers.
Worst case is ADL firing at jinking wave serpent. You'd need 8 quadguns to down 1 jinking Serp (8/9 hit, 1/3 damage, 1/3 get past jink, then 3 hull points).
Even against something as soft as a venom transport, you need 2 quads to down 1. (8x8/9 hit, 2/3rds damage, 1/2 jink, 2 hull points).

I'd almost rather have the Icarus. A pen at +1, and hope for weapon destroyed or explodes. Cheaper too.

How about IF devs with flakk ml and quad... in a bunker with ammo dump? Ultimate AA?
Just thinking of ways to get the points out of it in 7th...

Zsolt: Here is the link to the ToF site, where you can download pdf with army lists of every national team.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5475/etc-list-compilation

Vendettas are fairly solid pieces. Gone are they days when they were overpowered thanks to an absurdly low price tag (at 130, they were the third cheapest flyer in the game coming behind the nightscythe and valkyrie, and far cheaper than a great many flyers which were clearly inferior to Vendettas) and large transport capacity on top of some of the best if not the best anti-tank firepower and anti-air firepower in the IG codex. Even after the nerfs, they are still the best anti-air and among the best anti-armor and anti-MC units in the IG codex, they can still transport minimum sized stormtroopers and command squads, and they still have some of the best armor in a game for a flyer (coming behind stormravens, the new stormfangs and tying with the heldrake although the drake gets other special defenses). Additionally, thanks to the changes in 7e rules, their ability to hover can be used to contest objectives.

At worst, Vendettas are fairly priced for what they do now and still put most other flyers to shame. I would argue they are still marginally underpriced. They are a solid and resilient unit with a clear role to play in your army and won't serve you wrong if used correctly. Remember you can also use a Master of the Fleet to help them come on turn 2 if necessary.

I keep hearing about how great these things are but my poor vendetta has failed to kill much of ANYTHING in a game since pretty much 5th edition. Maybe I just have bad luck, and worst of all its not even getting shot down, it stays aloft the whole time doing jack. Only my best painted and coolest looking models are doomed to under perform. This makes me worried about the knight ive spend a few weeks getting painted well ><

I wouldn't really use the presence or absence of a given model in ETC lists as some sort of metric as to whether a model is good, seeing as you can pick your opponent, to a degree. Some of the guard lists at ETC are probably predator lists intended to take down specific forms of prey.

Asmodas wrote:
Some of the guard lists at ETC are probably predator lists intended to take down specific forms of prey.

Hardly, they all are very similar. No specific anti build in it, you can see it yourself if you wish.




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 generalchaos34 wrote:
I keep hearing about how great these things are but my poor vendetta has failed to kill much of ANYTHING in a game since pretty much 5th edition. Maybe I just have bad luck, and worst of all its not even getting shot down, it stays aloft the whole time doing jack. Only my best painted and coolest looking models are doomed to under perform. This makes me worried about the knight ive spend a few weeks getting painted well ><

Yeah, since the end of 5th edition, my vendettas have also been doing quite bad. In 7th, they hardly do anything at all in the game (no way to get their points back). Cant even transport in them, because they are like flying coffins. I liked them much better as a skimmer, when they could start the game on board with scout rule.... I am slowly replaicing them with other units (infantry, tanks).. If someone claims they are great anti tank, he should think again...or try them in battle. The points matter and for them, Lemans and infantry are both much better than vendettas. Reasons for that?:

1. Durability - both Lemans and infantry can withstand much longer in the field. (better armour/more hitpoints + better save without a need to jink)
2. Coming from reserves - You can never have Vendettas in the game turn one. You sometimes dont even get them in turn two or three...and since the game is quite short (5 to 7 turns) it is very important to use your unit EVERY turn.
3. Objective grabbing - much more effective with Lemans and infantry...

What you can put in it's transport space of 6? Regular infantry squads and veterans squads are starting at 10, what fit are dedicated Special weapon, Heavy weapon, Platoon command, Tempestus, even Ogryns, Ratlings, Psykers. What are the good choices?

According to me, you cant really compare units in a vacuum.

What can preform in similar roles?

3 Armoured sentinels with lascannons. 150
Can alpha strike if reserved, but then looses mobility.
bs3 suffers a accuracy problem.

3 Heavy weapon lascannons 105
Low cost.
Can not alpha strike.
Fragile.
bs3 suffers a accuracy problem.
Can only be taking with a platoon.


Can anyone of these outpreform the the vendetta?

Zsolt wrote:
What you can put in it's transport space of 6? Regular infantry squads and veterans squads are starting at 10, what fit are dedicated Special weapon, Heavy weapon, Platoon command, Tempestus, even Ogryns, Ratlings, Psykers. What are the good choices?

Ogryns? Hell no. Did you forget they have the very bulky special rule?

That being said, I suddenly have this crazy idea of using a Valkyrie to drop 3 Ogryns and a Priest onto the enemy. Anybody think thats a better idea than having them inside a Chimera?

 Sir Arun wrote:

Zsolt wrote:
What you can put in it's transport space of 6? Regular infantry squads and veterans squads are starting at 10, what fit are dedicated Special weapon, Heavy weapon, Platoon command, Tempestus, even Ogryns, Ratlings, Psykers. What are the good choices?

Ogryns? Hell no. Did you forget they have the very bulky special rule?

That being said, I suddenly have this crazy idea of using a Valkyrie to drop 3 Ogryns and a Priest onto the enemy. Anybody think thats a better idea than having them inside a Chimera?

Putting a 5/6 man Special weapon team full with melta's, dropping them next to enemy armor, hope they won't scatter much, and still be in LOS/range, shoot at the armor once, die the next turn horribly, should work?

The same with plasma guns against MEQ/TEQ?

My Vendetta has my BBQ PCS inside. Five men three flamers and a H Flamer. Glorious when it works.

konst80hummel wrote:
My Vendetta has my BBQ PCS inside. Five men three flamers and a H Flamer. Glorious when it works.

My recommendation is that you take 4 flamers now, as the new shooting phase rules may hinder the effectiveness of two different types of flamers. I usually just took the 4 regular flamers anyways for my BBQ squad and it always worked out just fine.

 ultimentra wrote:

konst80hummel wrote:
My Vendetta has my BBQ PCS inside. Five men three flamers and a H Flamer. Glorious when it works.

My recommendation is that you take 4 flamers now, as the new shooting phase rules may hinder the effectiveness of two different types of flamers. I usually just took the 4 regular flamers anyways for my BBQ squad and it always worked out just fine.

How does it hinder exactly?

Its because you have to fire all weapons of the same type and resolve all the wounds for it, then fire the next one. Meaning-

Shoot at enemy unit with BBQ squad
Fire 3 flamers
Resolve all wounds for flamers
Now fire Heavy flamer at remaining troops, and because you have already killed some with the normal flamers, you'll be hitting a lot less guys than you would have with just taking a 4th regular flamer. Its just how the template will end up working out with the rules of taking closest models as casualties.

i imagine flamers are the biggest reason they added the "out of range rule" and further the "shoot each gun type individually" rule, since theyre the main ones it hurts. I always found it kinda dumb that three flamers at the far end of a big string of units could wipe out the ENTIRE UNIT even though they stretched out further than bolters could shoot.

Onto the vendetta: its a powerhouse because its an AV12 flier which is pretty gaking hard to deal with unless you have weapons like the vendetta has - lascannons that fire reliably against air. Ive never really cared about them vs the ground, since they were merely a mobile lascannon platform to me, but they would melt any air i put out at table-range (given the minimum movements of course).

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Onto the vendetta: its a powerhouse because its an AV12 flier which is pretty gaking hard to deal with unless you have weapons like the vendetta has - lascannons that fire reliably against air. Ive never really cared about them vs the ground, since they were merely a mobile lascannon platform to me, but they would melt any air i put out at table-range (given the minimum movements of course).

Funny. In my games, its never vendetta, who is killing flyers. It is enemy eldar flyer, which can outshoot and outmaneuver vendetta with ease (vector dancer and re-roll pene against flyers) or prescienced massive fire from S6/7/9. Vendetta is not a powerhouse from the reasons I have already said and which I recommend you to read and think about.

Do you even play this unit? In at least semi-competitive environment? It is simply not worth the point cost anymore. Its no secret and no wonder that you dont see this unit in competitive imperial guard armies on tournaments.

People need to wake up from the 5th edition times, where the vendetta ruled and was massively OP. Not only because of the cost, which was too damn low, but also because you have it on the table turn 1 AND because you had 12 transport capacity AND because it had scout rule AND because it was a great synergy with other AV12 vehicles, from which the competitive lists were build (Do you remember Leafblower lists?). Also, after the end of 5th edition, GW released some very strong codices with many OP units much stronger that even the OP old vendetta. Fact, that is relatively making it a lot weaker. AV12 spam is not a good choice in todays edition and todays IG codex. Transporting units with flyers is also not a wise thing (unless you plan to drop them immediately after coming from reserves, which is very risky and very often not a good choice because of the lack of targets in the beginning of the game). Go to the tournaments, play vendettas, play them a lot, I would be glad. You have to make your own experience (a lot of it - few games will not cut it). Only then you can see it is not worth it anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:

ultimentra wrote:Don't listen to this guy, he's renowned on Dakka for not liking anything that's actually good.

Behold...

Renowned for not liking anything that's actually good? I know him more as that grouchy dude that doesn't deal with stupid comments very well

Maybe it is just you who knows him as this.