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I've read around the forums that Vendetta has a really good efficiency/points ratio, and should be a no-brainer include in any IG army, if you have the model.

At first glance it seems like a predator with wings. You'll get 3 lascannons with re-rolls, can shoot down flyers, and it's also a flyer, so hard to shoot down without AA.

What are it's uses? Does it benefit from any of it's upgrade options? How can it's transport capacity best used? How many to put in a squadron?

The Valkyrie on the other hand has double the transport capacity, but much weaker firepower, but with a couple of upgrades it can have a decent anti-infantry firepower. Are there situations where the Valkyrie is preferred to the Vendetta?

Zsolt wrote:I've read around the forums that Vendetta has a really good efficiency/points ratio, and should be a no-brainer include in any IG army, if you have the model.

Firstly, that never was true.

Secondly, it's even less true now that the new guard codex is out and they jacked the price way up while making russes way cheaper.

Zsolt wrote:At first glance it seems like a predator with wings.

And it has a transport capability, but that comes with problems like it being guard you're carrying around, and the transported unit being either useless or wasted, and airplanes exploding causing all kinds of problems for the passengers.

Otherwise it is like a predator, except it doesn't start the game on the table and is vulnerable to interceptor, so it's not much by way of alpha strike.

Zsolt wrote:What are it's uses?

You fly it on the board and shoot stuff with lascannons. There's not much to it, really.

It's like a russ that arrives late and doesn't have as many weapons.

Zsolt wrote:Are there situations where the Valkyrie is preferred to the Vendetta?

When you actually want to transport something somewhere.

A vendetta is like a falcon - firepower and can carry a small scoring unit around. A valkyrie is like a wave serpent - a harder-than-usual-to-kill transport that can deliver something to just where you want it by turn 3. Except with less firepower.

It used to be a lot cheaper and have a transport capacity of 10.

It was an extremely cheap way to get 3 TL lascannons (TL is important for Bs3 Guardsmen, the lower your Bs the greater the benefit of being TL) and those 3 TL lascannons were on a flyer so you could get them to the back of the battlefield to attack the side/rear armour. This is both a positive and a negative though, it means you don't get to shoot as much, but you have greater chance of exposing rear/side armour. Being a flyer itself, it was one of the best anti-flyer options in the game but was still also quite good at taking out ground vehicles or TEQs.

So you could fill it with melta vets, drop them off to kill some armour and be a nuisance and also fire off 3 TL Lascannon shots at other flyers or if other flyers weren't on the table just take out a tank. Oh, and AP2 in 6th ed meant you'd insta kill a vehicle on a 5+, now it's a 6.

It's also an AV12/12/10 flyer which makes it one of the harder things to bring down.

It is now significantly more expensive and the transport capacity has been cut (no more vets). So it's not as much of an "auto take" as it used to be.

Because the combination of

1) three twin-linked Lascannons

2) being able to train those with normal BS on enemy flyers

3) being hard to take out due to not being a ground vehicle (unlike, say, a Predator Annihilator)

4) mobility

and

5) having a transport capacity

...made it king of the skies.

Good thing it got nerfed because it deserved it. Now the normal Valkyrie with its infantry killing pie plates is being considered again, but you can still load up an SWS squad in the vendetta, or safely drop a PCS/CCS/MT command squad all armed with plasma or meltas to wreak havoc among the enemy

However, the points gap toward the Stormraven is even smaller now, and the Stormraven still gets special treatment (aka big transport capacity + better armor + melta resistance + even better armament in the form of 2 missiles + something like a TL-Las & TL-MM) because it belongs to the SCHPESS MUHREENS faction

 Ailaros wrote:

Zsolt wrote:I've read around the forums that Vendetta has a really good efficiency/points ratio, and should be a no-brainer include in any IG army, if you have the model.

Firstly, that never was true.

Secondly, it's even less true now that the new guard codex is out and they jacked the price way up while making russes way cheaper.

Zsolt wrote:At first glance it seems like a predator with wings.

And it has a transport capability, but that comes with problems like it being guard you're carrying around, and the transported unit being either useless or wasted, and airplanes exploding causing all kinds of problems for the passengers.

Otherwise it is like a predator, except it doesn't start the game on the table and is vulnerable to interceptor, so it's not much by way of alpha strike.

Zsolt wrote:What are it's uses?

You fly it on the board and shoot stuff with lascannons. There's not much to it, really.

It's like a russ that arrives late and doesn't have as many weapons.

Zsolt wrote:Are there situations where the Valkyrie is preferred to the Vendetta?

When you actually want to transport something somewhere.

A vendetta is like a falcon - firepower and can carry a small scoring unit around. A valkyrie is like a wave serpent - a harder-than-usual-to-kill transport that can deliver something to just where you want it by turn 3. Except with less firepower.

Don't listen to this guy, he's renowned on Dakka for not liking anything that's actually good. It's generally accepted that the Wyvern is also good and low and behold he hates on that too in another thread. The Vendetta even with its 170 point price tag is well worth it, you just have to use on it on the right targets to be worth its point cost. It is an Anti-vehicle flyer, so use it on vehicles and to finish off MCs. Putting a small PCS, Special Weapon Squad, or Scion squad is a good option for the vendetta. I personally like a SWS with 3 flamers.

All being said, you don't have to use it or anything that we tell you or recommend really. If you're not looking to win tournaments and just playing with buddies take whatever you like man.

ultimentra wrote:Don't listen to this guy, he's renowned on Dakka for not liking anything that's actually good.

Behold...

ultimentra wrote:The Vendetta even with its 170 point price tag is well worth it

... because...?

it WAS very cheap as a FLYER with 3xTL-LAS, with transport capacity as a bonus

that sums it up


and some guards players refuse to admit it, just like chaos marine dudes says heldrake was balanced in 6th and wolves player claimed longfang with ML aren't that broken back in 5th

170 points for 3 TL lasguns on a flyer. That's about all the reasoning you need.

 Sigvatr wrote:
170 points for 3 TL lasguns on a flyer. That's about all the reasoning you need.

When you put it like that it sounds massively overpriced...

stripeydave wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
170 points for 3 TL lasguns on a flyer. That's about all the reasoning you need.

When you put it like that it sounds massively overpriced...

To you, maybe. Not when comparing other options to get 3 Lascannons. On a flyer. That were quite strongly buffed in 7th.

 Sigvatr wrote:

stripeydave wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
170 points for 3 TL lasguns on a flyer. That's about all the reasoning you need.

When you put it like that it sounds massively overpriced...

To you, maybe. Not when comparing other options to get 3 Lascannons. On a flyer. That were quite strongly buffed in 7th.

You missed that the OP said "3 TL Lasguns" for 170 points, which is definitely not points efficient. Good thing he meant Lascannons, not Lasguns.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

stripeydave wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
170 points for 3 TL lasguns on a flyer. That's about all the reasoning you need.

When you put it like that it sounds massively overpriced...

To you, maybe. Not when comparing other options to get 3 Lascannons. On a flyer. That were quite strongly buffed in 7th.

You missed that the OP said "3 TL Lasguns" for 170 points, which is definitely not points efficient. Good thing he meant Lascannons, not Lasguns.

SJ

I often mix the two terms up as well - good thing I'm not a 40k general then!

"Look out guys, two lasguns at nine o' clock!"

*burst in laughter*

*burst in pieces*

Vendetta is quite a bad choice after the nerf. If you dont believe me, believe the guys building their army lists in ETC. From all the countries only ONE guard player actually fields vendettas...

 Lothar wrote:
Vendetta is quite a bad choice after the nerf. If you dont believe me, believe the guys building their army lists in ETC. From all the countries only ONE guard player actually fields vendettas...

They went from overpowered to strong, but more balanced. That's why they aren't seen in competitive play.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Vendetta is quite a bad choice after the nerf. If you dont believe me, believe the guys building their army lists in ETC. From all the countries only ONE guard player actually fields vendettas...

They went from overpowered to strong, but more balanced. That's why they aren't seen in competitive play.

If they would be strong, they would be in competitive play. Or are you suggesting, they are only OP units in competitive army lists?

After discussion in another thread last night, I checked out the avenger strike fighter.
It has only 2hp and side armour of 10. It also takes a heavy rather than fast slot and cannot be taken in squadrons.
However it is base 150pts with 2 lascannons and an avenger bolt cannon and for an extra 30pts you can get 2 auto cannons.
It also has strafing run for use against ground targets.
That means it has 7 st6 ap3, 2 st9 ap2 and 4 st7 ap4 shots. Against flyers it will be bs3, against ground targets it will be bs4. One weapon will be bs1 due to being a 5th weapon. That's quite a trade for 3 tl st9 ap2 shots and a minimal transport cap.

 Lothar wrote:
Vendetta is quite a bad choice after the nerf. If you dont believe me, believe the guys building their army lists in ETC. From all the countries only ONE guard player actually fields vendettas...

It probably has more to do with the fact that in 7th edition you can mix and match units from most armies and call it a legal armylist.

But for traditionalist IG players strictly adhering to their own faction, there arent many ways to find a unit that will more than replace a Vendetta's role on the battlefield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
After discussion in another thread last night, I checked out the avenger strike fighter.
It has only 2hp and side armour of 10. It also takes a heavy rather than fast slot and cannot be taken in squadrons.
However it is base 150pts with 2 lascannons and an avenger bolt cannon and for an extra 30pts you can get 2 auto cannons.
It also has strafing run for use against ground targets.
That means it has 7 st6 ap3, 2 st9 ap2 and 4 st7 ap4 shots. Against flyers it will be bs3, against ground targets it will be bs4. One weapon will be bs1 due to being a 5th weapon. That's quite a trade for 3 tl st9 ap2 shots and a minimal transport cap.

Except it's not in the codex.

Sir Arun,

That may be right, but if you look into those army lists, you will see that those IG players are NOT using units from other codices that would fill the role of a vendetta. Most of their non-guard units are psykers and henchmen. There is no flyer there, nothing with Anti tank firepower... and they do not "mix and match units from most armies and call it a legal armylist" since they are using Combined arms and Ally detachments

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Vendetta is quite a bad choice after the nerf. If you dont believe me, believe the guys building their army lists in ETC. From all the countries only ONE guard player actually fields vendettas...

It probably has more to do with the fact that in 7th edition you can mix and match units from most armies and call it a legal armylist.

But for traditionalist IG players strictly adhering to their own faction, there arent many ways to find a unit that will more than replace a Vendetta's role on the battlefield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
After discussion in another thread last night, I checked out the avenger strike fighter.
It has only 2hp and side armour of 10. It also takes a heavy rather than fast slot and cannot be taken in squadrons.
However it is base 150pts with 2 lascannons and an avenger bolt cannon and for an extra 30pts you can get 2 auto cannons.
It also has strafing run for use against ground targets.
That means it has 7 st6 ap3, 2 st9 ap2 and 4 st7 ap4 shots. Against flyers it will be bs3, against ground targets it will be bs4. One weapon will be bs1 due to being a 5th weapon. That's quite a trade for 3 tl st9 ap2 shots and a minimal transport cap.

Except it's not in the codex.

So? It's still an IG unit. OP asked if the vendetta was a good choice. I gave him/her other options. Without even having the need to take allies. Is this a dislike of FW issue? If not - I don't understand the issue of it not being in the AM dex but still being an AM unit?

I'm rather surprised that people aren't abusing the current 'Combined Arms Detachment' system, combined with the current dedicated transport rules.
1. Ally Inquisition
2. Take Coteaz
3. henchmen squads as troops with either the old Chimera or old Valkyrie available as transports.

a XX point tax that incidentally provides an Objective Secured unit that while easy to deal with MUST be dealt with is a great distraction.

4. if you want more, then you can always take a YY pt hq to unlock more, which also can give you another ML as well as some more servo skulls.

 carldooley wrote:
I'm rather surprised that people aren't abusing the current 'Combined Arms Detachment' system, combined with the current dedicated transport rules.
1. Ally Inquisition
2. Take Coteaz
3. henchmen squads as troops with either the old Chimera or old Valkyrie available as transports.

a XX point tax that incidentally provides an Objective Secured unit that while easy to deal with MUST be dealt with is a great distraction.

4. if you want more, then you can always take a YY pt hq to unlock more, which also can give you another ML as well as some more servo skulls.

It can be abused far more than that!

Inquisitor with 3 servo skulls
3 servitors with heavy bolters
3 acolytes
Razorback with psybolts and tl assault cannon (psyback)

(Inquisitor
3 servitors with plasma cannons
3 acolytes
Psyback) x2

(Inquisitor
3 servitors with heavy bolters
Psyback) x2

(3 acolytes with plasma guns
Psyback) x5

(3 acolytes with melta guns
Psyback) x3

(3 acolytes with flamers)
Psyback) x2

1850pts

That is 15 psybacks each with 4 bs4 st7 tl rending shots. 6 plasma cannons, 9 heavy bolters, 15 plasma guns, 9 meltas and 6 flamers. Oh and 9 lasguns and 5 boltpistols lol.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
With 30 dangerous units, you don't need to worry about ob sec as you'll be scoring all over the place anyway.

The vendetta is a powerhouse because most people remember the glory days of 5th edition where it was cheap and guard could shoot players off of the table turn 1. In 6th it was still cheap, but got significantly less awesome, because you couldn't first turn alpha strike with it. 7th sees it with the same issues and a hefty price tag.

I feel like turn two is one turn too late for my primary anti-tank to come into the game. I've been using vanquishers, meltas and lascannons from other sources to make up for not using the vendettas as much anymore. I still have three of them, so believe me when I say I want them to be as good as the next guy.

I also feel like we have this strange dichotomy here where people pigeon-hole all units into two categories: "amazing", and "worthless". I'm saying that the vendetta is neither, and often overrated by players (like the wyvern). The vendetta IS probably one of the best single anti-air units that guard can get, but it's also expensive and takes a while to come on. It's a good choice, but far from an "autoinclude".

Poly Ranger wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
I'm rather surprised that people aren't abusing the current 'Combined Arms Detachment' system, combined with the current dedicated transport rules.
1. Ally Inquisition
2. Take Coteaz
3. henchmen squads as troops with either the old Chimera or old Valkyrie available as transports.

a XX point tax that incidentally provides an Objective Secured unit that while easy to deal with MUST be dealt with is a great distraction.

4. if you want more, then you can always take a YY pt hq to unlock more, which also can give you another ML as well as some more servo skulls.

It can be abused far more than that!

Inquisitor with 3 servo skulls
3 servitors with heavy bolters
3 acolytes
Razorback with psybolts and tl assault cannon (psyback)

(Inquisitor
3 servitors with plasma cannons
3 acolytes
Psyback) x2

(Inquisitor
3 servitors with heavy bolters
Psyback) x2

(3 acolytes with plasma guns
Psyback) x5

(3 acolytes with melta guns
Psyback) x3

(3 acolytes with flamers)
Psyback) x2

1850pts

That is 15 psybacks each with 4 bs4 st7 tl rending shots. 6 plasma cannons, 9 heavy bolters, 15 plasma guns, 9 meltas and 6 flamers. Oh and 9 lasguns and 5 boltpistols lol.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
With 30 dangerous units, you don't need to worry about ob sec as you'll be scoring all over the place anyway.

The update to the Inquisition codex removed the lord of formosa rule from coteaz. so they're not OS anymore.

 Gangrel767 wrote:


The update to the Inquisition codex removed the lord of formosa rule from coteaz. so they're not OS anymore.

It seems they didn't remove it from Grey Knights, so you could probably get the same effect from there.

 daedalus wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:


The update to the Inquisition codex removed the lord of formosa rule from coteaz. so they're not OS anymore.

It seems they didn't remove it from Grey Knights, so you could probably get the same effect from there.

exactly. I just wanted to make sure you were aware. grey knights codex does still have it.

This is why I put the last sentence in "with 30 dangerous units, you don't need to worry about ob sec, as you will be scoring all over the place anyway".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And also why I didn't include coatez in the list.

What are guard players using for anti-air?

As for the lack of Vendettas, could that be tied to the lack of guard in top tables at BAO?

The Vendetta got a buff in 7th. Most AA weapons got a huge nerf with the change to interceptor and vehicles overall got a better damage table.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
What are guard players using for anti-air?

As for the lack of Vendettas, could that be tied to the lack of guard in top tables at BAO?

Generally, I have enough other guns that by the time a flyer gets on the board, I just plink at it with whatever feels good until it's dead. Even S6 can still glance to death a flyer. Prescience makes that hit percentage that much better.

I'll turn that around. How many flyers are you usually seeing? My meta doesn't normally have more than 1 a game, if even that. If I ran into a 3+ flyer list, I might have some issues, but it hasn't happened yet.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The Vendetta got a buff in 7th. Most AA weapons got a huge nerf with the change to interceptor and vehicles overall got a better damage table.

Yeh - the quad gun went from being common to one of the poorest guns in the game for its points!