Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Requizen wrote:

Vindicare: Fantastic in games where taking out specific models (especially those in deep cover) is important. Otherwise... well he mounts emplaced guns really well since his BS8/Ignore Cover/Precision Shots count toward weapons he's using as well as his own.

Good Lord...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Bharring wrote:
How is their 'technological edge' so obscenely better than that of a Chapter Master, in regards to WS/BS? Much less, anywhere close to the tech for an Exarch?

Because Chapter Masters aren't gods. They're just Space Marines +1, +2 in the case of Space Wolves and Grey Knights. The Officio Assassinorum is extremely well-funded by the Imperial organizations that directly control the Space Marine Chapters (The High Lords of Terra and His Ordos of the Holy Inquisition). Knights-in-Space are all well and good... but the Art of the Low War is best handled by professionals. Professionals like genetically-built assassins who can change into other species (or even other Families), kitted out with cybernetics that would make a Dreadnought blush, enough bioaugmentation and genetic manipulation that makes the geneseed of the Space Marines look like My First Chemistry Set, trained *constantly* through both practical means and hypno-indoctrination and direct mental engrammatic implantation (even while they sleep/are kept in cryostasis until they are needed), armed with weapons designed to kill absolutely anything.

Space Marines get 15 minutes of free time a day. The best of the Imperium's assassins don't even get that. They are thawed out, sent on a mission, and returned to cryostasis when the job is done.

Just a note, not all temples employ cyrostasis. The main ones that do are Eversor (Because of the chemical cocktail and neigh insanity) and Culexus (Who aren't kept in a temple and instead located in a vast variety of starships in stasis kept on high alert)

Perhaps... but what Chapter keeps its Chapter Master on ice until they need him to give commands?

Let's be honest, the Assassinorum Temples are some frakking scary places, tasked with producing some of the frakking scariest things the Imperium

Also wouldn't it be silly to create an assassin that couldn't kill the very things there designed to assassinate?

 Psienesis wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Bharring wrote:
How is their 'technological edge' so obscenely better than that of a Chapter Master, in regards to WS/BS? Much less, anywhere close to the tech for an Exarch?

Because Chapter Masters aren't gods. They're just Space Marines +1, +2 in the case of Space Wolves and Grey Knights. The Officio Assassinorum is extremely well-funded by the Imperial organizations that directly control the Space Marine Chapters (The High Lords of Terra and His Ordos of the Holy Inquisition). Knights-in-Space are all well and good... but the Art of the Low War is best handled by professionals. Professionals like genetically-built assassins who can change into other species (or even other Families), kitted out with cybernetics that would make a Dreadnought blush, enough bioaugmentation and genetic manipulation that makes the geneseed of the Space Marines look like My First Chemistry Set, trained *constantly* through both practical means and hypno-indoctrination and direct mental engrammatic implantation (even while they sleep/are kept in cryostasis until they are needed), armed with weapons designed to kill absolutely anything.

Space Marines get 15 minutes of free time a day. The best of the Imperium's assassins don't even get that. They are thawed out, sent on a mission, and returned to cryostasis when the job is done.

Just a note, not all temples employ cyrostasis. The main ones that do are Eversor (Because of the chemical cocktail and neigh insanity) and Culexus (Who aren't kept in a temple and instead located in a vast variety of starships in stasis kept on high alert)

Perhaps... but what Chapter keeps its Chapter Master on ice until they need him to give commands?

Let's be honest, the Assassinorum Temples are some frakking scary places, tasked with producing some of the frakking scariest things the Imperium

Indeed. In the fluff, the Assassinorum Temples are pretty much the definition of "point and click to remove." The Culexus phases in and out of reality and psykers explode just by looking at them. Callidus are so well camoflagged they can literally infliltrate Necron ships and Ork Nob swuads to get close to the boss. The Eversor is more of a "point at the target, eat popcorn" as you watch it shred everything from a Green Tide to a Chaos Terminator Squad. And Vindicares are snipers on the same level as Deadshot from DC comics (a character they had/have a rule named after which allowed them to ignore LoS rolls and have Precision shots on all hits). Able to put a bullet through the mark's eye from kilometres away, including curving it around 3 trees and a waterfall and doing it backwards using a 1930's handmirror you would expect in a John Wayne movie rather than on the battlefield of the 41st Millenium.

Sending an Assassin after someone in the background is a literal death sentence. Sending an Execution force means they need dead, like, yesterday. I think either Horus or Abaddon had an Execution force sent after them and remains the only failure, although it is suggested one or more members might yet be still active trying to fulfill the mission.

All that makes me think WS/BS 6, maybe 7.

Remember that the difference between a fresh new full Battle Brother and the most senior 1st company battle brother is exactly 0. Each WS/BS point is supposed to be huge.

Karrandas and Jain Zar have everything listed here going for them, and more. They're probably both older than most Assasin temples, and don't go into stasis. Why can an Eversor school Karrandas at assasination, and Jain Zar at swordwork? For that matter, why can a Vindicare?

I understand - and agree - that they're more skilled than a Chapter Master. The question is how much more skilled. And comparing them to Exarchs and Phoenix Lords I believe should be more accurate. (Besides, isn't at least one PL older than the Imperium itself?)

If you think BS7 is too much, I'll just have you note that a vindicare in one of the books took down an airplane by shooting at the pilot's head, while freefalling.
I highly doubt a chapter master could even land a shot on the plane, let alone snipe the pilot.


The assassins are absurdly good at what they do. they are anime-level killers. when they say "the best, of the best, of the best" they are talking about THEM.
They actually have a chance at taking down a primearch 1v1, when they get into the fight under their own terms like proper assassins. (wont be easy against some)

Anyone else think putting the assasin in a flying transport is asking for the Luls?

Bharring wrote:
All that makes me think WS/BS 6, maybe 7.

Remember that the difference between a fresh new full Battle Brother and the most senior 1st company battle brother is exactly 0. Each WS/BS point is supposed to be huge.

Karrandas and Jain Zar have everything listed here going for them, and more. They're probably both older than most Assasin temples, and don't go into stasis. Why can an Eversor school Karrandas at assasination, and Jain Zar at swordwork? For that matter, why can a Vindicare?

I understand - and agree - that they're more skilled than a Chapter Master. The question is how much more skilled. And comparing them to Exarchs and Phoenix Lords I believe should be more accurate. (Besides, isn't at least one PL older than the Imperium itself?)

Assassins are trained to the ultimate peak. Pheonix Lords may be powerful but at the end of the day they are nothing but an Eldar locked in a perpetual state of obsession with an aspect of warfare and being the best of their kind, they can never improve. And once they get beaten by an enemy...well, they're dead and can't improve.

Assassins have a failure rated of 99.999%. ONLY people who score flawlessly can become them and they constantly train them. I'd assume their training involves taking out marks who know who and where they are at all times. Or even having to use all of their skills to take out the 4 other top candidates in an arena. Think Assassin's Creed multiplayer. Only with biologically enhanced assassins with space-tech.

 Deadshot wrote:

Bharring wrote:
All that makes me think WS/BS 6, maybe 7.

Remember that the difference between a fresh new full Battle Brother and the most senior 1st company battle brother is exactly 0. Each WS/BS point is supposed to be huge.

Karrandas and Jain Zar have everything listed here going for them, and more. They're probably both older than most Assasin temples, and don't go into stasis. Why can an Eversor school Karrandas at assasination, and Jain Zar at swordwork? For that matter, why can a Vindicare?

I understand - and agree - that they're more skilled than a Chapter Master. The question is how much more skilled. And comparing them to Exarchs and Phoenix Lords I believe should be more accurate. (Besides, isn't at least one PL older than the Imperium itself?)

Assassins are trained to the ultimate peak. Pheonix Lords may be powerful but at the end of the day they are nothing but an Eldar locked in a perpetual state of obsession with an aspect of warfare and being the best of their kind, they can never improve. And once they get beaten by an enemy...well, they're dead and can't improve.

Assassins have a failure rated of 99.999%. ONLY people who score flawlessly can become them and they constantly train them. I'd assume their training involves taking out marks who know who and where they are at all times. Or even having to use all of their skills to take out the 4 other top candidates in an arena. Think Assassin's Creed multiplayer. Only with biologically enhanced assassins with space-tech.

So basically the assassins are modeled after my life. Interesting . . .

 Deadshot wrote:
Sending an Assassin after someone in the background is a literal death sentence. Sending an Execution force means they need dead, like, yesterday. I think either Horus or Abaddon had an Execution force sent after them and remains the only failure, although it is suggested one or more members might yet be still active trying to fulfill the mission.

Scarily, the last item on the timeline is the high lords reacting to the 13th black crusade by authorising a general deployment of the entire officio assassinorum in a single kill-force.

That's not that much of an overreaction though...

The black crusade had many, many chaos lords and sorcerers running there-and each is a valid target.

There are not many assassins. maybe a hundred total of all temples combined, including the non-combat temples and the in-training assassins.

Yea, the entire officio assassinorum is a taskforce of equal power to about a dozen space marine chapters-but such a force is not even nearly enough to deal with the 13th black crusade.

Another thing, Assasins are Focused killers, Unlike Chapter MAsters that have to direct and control the flow of battle. Assasins have one thing to focus on. Kill their target. And they do it in their own way. A Vindicare is only good with his Rifle, he isnt a CC monster, while the Evesor isnt the sneaky slit your throat but a terror tactic.

One issue with the callidus, she can't do anything against vehicles. She doesn't even have krak grenades. my enemy charged my Eversor with a mauler fiend, the same fiend that killed my vindicare in the previous game. The issue is that the callidus and culexus are specifically CC based. I guess the callidus can hit and run, the poor culexus can't retreat or damage a walker with av11 :(

 BoomWolf wrote:
That's not that much of an overreaction though...

The black crusade had many, many chaos lords and sorcerers running there-and each is a valid target.

There are not many assassins. maybe a hundred total of all temples combined, including the non-combat temples and the in-training assassins.

Yea, the entire officio assassinorum is a taskforce of equal power to about a dozen space marine chapters-but such a force is not even nearly enough to deal with the 13th black crusade.

Actually there's tons more, there's basic assassin agents who report to the assassinorium (basic agents but not highly specialized in a temple), aka normal assassins you'd send to deal with normal threats, not highly specialized "WE NEED THIS DEAD NOW"

Used to be part of the old assassin template, but it was also the most customizable.. Yeah it was one of those broken things cause you could take polymorphine while being in 2+ armor on a bike with strong weapons

Used both Callidus and Vindicare in my game last night. They killed... some Marines. Oh, and the Vindicare penned and rolled a 6 to explode a Razorback, too. Granted, this was a list with all vehicles and only Tac Squads and one Sternguard squad, so Cally couldn't really do much. She stopped some Speeders from coming in turn 2, I guess.

I feel like the Callidus could have done more against a different list, where an AP2 Poison template could have done more damage or had a higher priority target. Her utility seems fine, but like I said, if you go first and the opponent doesn't have reserves (or has a lot where the first roll isn't too bad), then it's not really that impactful.

I suppose the Vindicare could have been the same, but honestly I still feel like paying a buck fifty for a single shot per turn is hard to justify. Sure, there's always the situation where that one all-but-guaranteed wound, which could decide a Victory Point or even the game, but it still feels hard to justify compared to taking a squad or vehicle that can do more than sit in one spot and hurt one thing per turn.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:There's also the other assassins from the other temples, along with the standard assassins who aren't prepped as the main temples are, but we don't see them anymore on the tabletop.

Yep. Venenum and the hacker one (forgot the name). While the hacker guy could show up as some kind of support character, the Venenum is too specialized to go to open battle

 BoomWolf wrote:
If you think BS7 is too much, I'll just have you note that a vindicare in one of the books took down an airplane by shooting at the pilot's head, while freefalling.
I highly doubt a chapter master could even land a shot on the plane, let alone snipe the pilot.


The assassins are absurdly good at what they do. they are anime-level killers. when they say "the best, of the best, of the best" they are talking about THEM.
They actually have a chance at taking down a primearch 1v1, when they get into the fight under their own terms like proper assassins. (wont be easy against some)

seems high

some of the Dark Eldar books have reaver jetbike riders (ws/bs 4) changing the direction of missiles fired at them they dodged to position them to hit something else without getting hurt.

Dark Eldar cause nightmares in most sentient species.

Imperial Assassins cause nightmares in Dark Eldar.

I dont want to be "that guy" but the Vindi competes with someone just as high.

Illic.
A BS9 sniper who improves his own units and has an AP2 sniper with distort.
Along with split fire too

Wow, somehow I didn't know he was BS9. That seems wrong. But it makes the Assasins a bit more reasonable (but, really, BS9 on a mortal, but WS/BS7 on Phoenix Lords? Maugan Ra and Baharoth should outshoot Illic any day...). Don't like it, that's the way it is.

Though higher BS no longer gives a re-roll, you max out at 2+.

You have been decived brother.

High BS gives the second (albit usually lower) roll just like it always did.

Bharring wrote:
Wow, somehow I didn't know he was BS9. That seems wrong. But it makes the Assasins a bit more reasonable (but, really, BS9 on a mortal, but WS/BS7 on Phoenix Lords? Maugan Ra and Baharoth should outshoot Illic any day...). Don't like it, that's the way it is.

Do remember Maugan Ra and Baharoth don't get the strange enhancements like the Imperial Assassins do, but the fact that even just possessing a normal Exarch wearing their armor and coming out with WS7/BS7 when the body hasn't trained to their specifications is pretty powerful.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You have been decived brother.

High BS gives the second (albit usually lower) roll just like it always did.

Lol, whoops you're right, of course it's on a separate page from the rest of BS chart...because...GW?

Then there is a bar titles something like "models with BS 6 or higher)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wow, somehow I didn't know he was BS9. That seems wrong. But it makes the Assasins a bit more reasonable (but, really, BS9 on a mortal, but WS/BS7 on Phoenix Lords? Maugan Ra and Baharoth should outshoot Illic any day...). Don't like it, that's the way it is.

Do remember Maugan Ra and Baharoth don't get the strange enhancements like the Imperial Assassins do, but the fact that even just possessing a normal Exarch wearing their armor and coming out with WS7/BS7 when the body hasn't trained to their specifications is pretty powerful.

Again, A pheonix lord is focusing on other parts aswell, including tactics and coordinating the battle. But a vindicare lives and breaths through his rifle.

Bharring wrote:
Their stat line just makes no sense. Yes, they are awesome. Seems like a stretch to put them above Chapter Masters though. They're basically the human equivalent to Eldar Exarchs.

What would people think of counts-as for these models? I'd love to put together some Outcast or Exodite (Eldar) heroes using these rules?

The Illic nightspinner model would make a great counts as Vinci for my Eldar.... Always wanted to squeeze that model into my force.

I think it's interesting that probably the two best assassins are the cheaper ones. Also, the culexus causes fear, but his etherium causes all enemies to strike at WS1 anyway. Making his fear rule only apply if you have another unit engaged in the same combat.