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 thedarkavenger wrote:
Those kind of lists aren't bad. Apart from the witches. Let's save my opinions for another time though. I said that the best lists are the cauldron bowlines and the fast cav lists.

What's wrong with Witches?

(If you're going to start in about frenzy-baiting, I am sad to tell you that you are mistaken. The chaff cloud and tirestrips work quite well at stopping frenzy-baiting dead in it's tracks. In a quite literally countless number of games, I've never once had to make a frenzy check on the main blocks... in spite of determined attempts from my opponents.)

 Vulcan wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Those kind of lists aren't bad. Apart from the witches. Let's save my opinions for another time though. I said that the best lists are the cauldron bowlines and the fast cav lists.

What's wrong with Witches?

(If you're going to start in about frenzy-baiting, I am sad to tell you that you are mistaken. The chaff cloud and tirestrips work quite well at stopping frenzy-baiting dead in it's tracks. In a quite literally countless number of games, I've never once had to make a frenzy check on the main blocks... in spite of determined attempts from my opponents.)

It's more of the fact that they're a unit with more bad matchups than good, and fill a role that the rest of the army does, but better. And have NO protection against the army's main witches. The army is all LD 9-10, frenzy baiting is the last thing on my mind.

I've used Witch Elves extensively against all kinds of army lists and they are almost always the best performing unit in my army, and that is even against gun-lines. Of course, your meta may be different.

Still, the "worst unit in the book" is a laughable exaggeration. You're saying Witch Elves are worse than Fleetmasters, Dreadspears, Bleakswords, Shadowblade, etc? Even against Warriors of Chaos my Witch Elves are by far the best performing despite the presence of Executioners and Cold One Knights.

Elf Spearmen are *useless* after significant experience with both High Elves and Dark Elves; whether you like them or not Witch Elves are point-for-point some of the best butchers in the game against light to medium infantry. And they are Core.

Caederes wrote:
I've used Witch Elves extensively against all kinds of army lists and they are almost always the best performing unit in my army, and that is even against gun-lines. Of course, your meta may be different.

Still, the "worst unit in the book" is a laughable exaggeration. You're saying Witch Elves are worse than Fleetmasters, Dreadspears, Bleakswords, Shadowblade, etc? Even against Warriors of Chaos my Witch Elves are by far the best performing despite the presence of Executioners and Cold One Knights.

Elf Spearmen are *useless* after significant experience with both High Elves and Dark Elves; whether you like them or not Witch Elves are point-for-point some of the best butchers in the game against light to medium infantry. And they are Core.

Point-for-point, corsairs outperform witches. By virtue of having armour.

As for my meta, it's a meta full of skilled players. That's why witches don't do well at all. The prevalence of WoC, Empire, Elves, Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs, DoC, Lizardmen, and Tomb Kings means that the witches have no good matchups. They can't handle armour, which is easily accessible. They can't handle shooting, which is easily accessible. As a matter of fact, their good matchups are T3/4 infantry with no armour. So, that means they do well against Beastmen and Vampire Counts.

As for Fleetmasters, They're average at best, and all the cheap core has it's uses as sac dagger ammo. As a matter of fact, there are two good core options; darkshards and dark riders.

And after playing elves since the 6th ed books, The ranged options are vastly superior to any combat unit without armour that can fight T3 units well. Any combat unit that can't deal with armour reliably isn't worth it.

As I said, your meta may be different to mine, but I play against all of those armies and have found my Witch Elves perform far better than you seem to think they do.
Corsairs don't out-perform Witch Elves as *butchers* which is what I said, I didn't say Witch Elves were a better unit overall. I don't know how much Strength 6+ you face off against but it is far too common in my meta, honestly, which means Corsairs end up being Witch Elves with less punch once they get into combat.

So you're implying my own meta - or that of other players - doesn't feature skilled players either? Do all those people that run Witch Elves regularly at tournaments at a local and country level classify as inexperienced players?

I'm sorry dude, but you are probably the only person I have ever talked to or read about online that says Witch Elves are a bad unit, let alone the worst in the Dark Elf book. I wish I was exaggerating but I'm really not, the unit annihilates almost anything that gets in its way, and what it doesn't obliterate gets hard countered by Executioners and Reaper Bolt Throwers. While shooting variants of those armies you mention are obviously a different story, once my Witch Elves actually get into combat they annihilate anything short of the 1+ armoured monstrous cavalry, and I play against all of those armies on a regular or semi-regular basis.

Fleetmasters aren't "average at best", they are absolutely terrible and your implication that they are superior to Witch Elves is mind-boggling. A Toughness 3 model on foot that can get at best a 2+ armour save and 4+ ward save with absolutely no offensive punch built around "tying up enemy units" with the Unbreakable crap is laughably bad. It might be ok for something like Skaven but for Elves that don't operate on having deep ranks/tying enemies up, it is practically worthless. I can't think of any situation where a Dreadlord wouldn't be better just so that they can actually, you know, kill something. I also wouldn't call 9 point Elves "cheap", but then I've not really taken to the Sacrifical Dagger now that its' effects aren't guaranteed.

I'm not going to debate as to whether Witch Elves are better than Dark Riders or Darkshards as I do think at the very least Dark Riders are the best Core unit in the book without a doubt, but to say Witch Elves can't deal with armour isn't entirely accurate. The unit averages a colossal amount of wounds against almost anything that is Toughness 4 or lower, once you throw the Razor Standard in those armour saves start to get drowned out in record time. It might be a moot point but they also tear apart monsters.

Again, and I'm not trying to be rude, but until I started reading your posts I have never spoken or read about *anyone* that doesn't think Witch Elves are at least a good unit. So many tournament builds I read about on various forums feature Dark Riders backing Witch Elves, especially in Swedish Comp where the former gets hit pretty hard in higher numbers.

Caederes wrote:
As I said, your meta may be different to mine, but I play against all of those armies and have found my Witch Elves perform far better than you seem to think they do.
Corsairs don't out-perform Witch Elves as *butchers* which is what I said, I didn't say Witch Elves were a better unit overall. I don't know how much Strength 6+ you face off against but it is far too common in my meta, honestly, which means Corsairs end up being Witch Elves with less punch once they get into combat.

So you're implying my own meta - or that of other players - doesn't feature skilled players either? Do all those people that run Witch Elves regularly at tournaments at a local and country level classify as inexperienced players?

I'm sorry dude, but you are probably the only person I have ever talked to or read about online that says Witch Elves are a bad unit, let alone the worst in the Dark Elf book. I wish I was exaggerating but I'm really not, the unit annihilates almost anything that gets in its way, and what it doesn't obliterate gets hard countered by Executioners and Reaper Bolt Throwers. While shooting variants of those armies you mention are obviously a different story, once my Witch Elves actually get into combat they annihilate anything short of the 1+ armoured monstrous cavalry, and I play against all of those armies on a regular or semi-regular basis.

Fleetmasters aren't "average at best", they are absolutely terrible and your implication that they are superior to Witch Elves is mind-boggling. A Toughness 3 model on foot that can get at best a 2+ armour save and 4+ ward save with absolutely no offensive punch built around "tying up enemy units" with the Unbreakable crap is laughably bad. It might be ok for something like Skaven but for Elves that don't operate on having deep ranks/tying enemies up, it is practically worthless. I can't think of any situation where a Dreadlord wouldn't be better just so that they can actually, you know, kill something. I also wouldn't call 9 point Elves "cheap", but then I've not really taken to the Sacrifical Dagger now that its' effects aren't guaranteed.

I'm not going to debate as to whether Witch Elves are better than Dark Riders or Darkshards as I do think at the very least Dark Riders are the best Core unit in the book without a doubt, but to say Witch Elves can't deal with armour isn't entirely accurate. The unit averages a colossal amount of wounds against almost anything that is Toughness 4 or lower, once you throw the Razor Standard in those armour saves start to get drowned out in record time. It might be a moot point but they also tear apart monsters.

Again, and I'm not trying to be rude, but until I started reading your posts I have never spoken or read about *anyone* that doesn't think Witch Elves are at least a good unit. So many tournament builds I read about on various forums feature Dark Riders backing Witch Elves, especially in Swedish Comp where the former gets hit pretty hard in higher numbers.

A) No decent list in all of Europe and the UK uses any infantry. Let alone witches. The entire thing about witches being one of the best unit in the book is nothing more than a fallacy. Yes. I am implying that if people do well with witches, then the meta is full of unskilled players. They are a unit with far more bad matchups than good. Against something like WoC. They do well against marauders, and at a very strenuous push, warriors. If they're marked Nurgle, then you've got nothing. The prince, Knights, Chariots, Trolls, Drogres and Skullcrushers all ruin them. Anything with a 3+ save or better ruins them. Anything that has a ranged attack ruins them. Anything that denies them rerolls ruins them.

B) Witch elves don't annihilate anything they touch, unless it's skaven, empire infantry or marauders. That's a fact. Anything with enough armour, or stats to withstand their attacks, which includes most of the stuff you want them to fight, will ruin them. As for the countering business, that is also untrue. Wild riders do horrible things to witches. And executioners. Plaguebearers do the same. As do Daemonettes, strangely enough. There are plenty of counters to witches in the meta, and most of what counters them, also counters executioners. Stuff like fast cav.

C) I'm just going to point out that fleetmasters do have some dirty tricks in conjunction with the rest of the book. Mainly the unbreakable. I've used one to great effect in the past. They're average. Just like people raved about witches when the book first came out, and called him useless, and that's mostly faded amongst skilled players, neither are true.

D)S3 with armour piercing is a -1 penalty. Anything with a 3+ armour will still just tank them fairly well. With all the monstrous cav, and normal cav about, the only infantry that has a place on the field are executioners, and even then, they're an inferior choice. My pseudo-deathstar unit of executioners(Capable of taking off 2400 points in a round of combat) is still my fluffy army.

E) Really? Tournament builds use Witches. I can tell you, Less than an eighth of last year's ETC lists used them as anything more than chaff, and no UK tournament list from any event that matters for rankings had them in. For players like me, whenever someone puts a horde of witches on the board, I clap my hands in glee and tell them, that's the 20-0 to me. 100%. The best dark elf builds out there right now are the cauldron bowline, fast cav points denial, and the warlockstar. All of which are infinitely better than witches. As it stands, witches are a fluff choice. Not a competitive one.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

E) Really? Tournament builds use Witches. I can tell you, Less than an eighth of last year's ETC lists used them as anything more than chaff...

Couple of points.
ETC isn't normal warhammer. Armies are built for specific match ups not a blind draw, and the numbers you have on ETC is flat out Wrong.
10 Lists have a unit of 20+ witch elves; out of 28 lists, little over 35% of them. If you add in armies with smaller units (less than 20), you add another 5 to that list. Now your at 53% of world thinking that witch elves are a good idea.
What's more important, is that just about every single list has 4 bolt throws, and 4 characters on Pegasus, warlocks and fast cav, with ~20 or so shooters.

Here's the link to the thread, it's actually a pretty good read.
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=75357


And below is the list of the armies from the thread, edited down to just show witch elves.

Here's 2014 ETC:
Multiple Peggy Lists:

AUSTRALIA: Nick "Sigvald LeCok " Legrand, Dark Elves

AUSTRIA: Rasmus Hammer, Dark Elves

BULGARIA: Yordan Deliyski, Dark Elves
12 Witch Elves: Champion, Musician, 152

DENMARK: Daniel Hedegaard, Dark Elves

GERMANY: Felix "Monstagoblin" Dahlke, Dark Elves
13 Witch Elves: Standard, Musician, 163

GREECE: Konstantinos “Xereus” Andreanos, DARK ELVES

IRELAND: Chris DGame Smith – The Syphalitic Host

NEW ZELAND: Tim Joss, Dark Elves

SINGAPORE: Jon Wang "Big Wang", Dark Elves
28 Witch Elves: FCG, Banner of the Eternal Flame, 348

SPAIN: Manuel "Muzgot" Aviles - Dark Elves
12 Witch Elves: 132

SWEDEN: Johan Lagmo, Dark Elves

SWITZERLAND: Andy Geiser, Dark Elves

USA: Alex Schmid, Dark Elves
13 Witch Elves: Standard, Musician, Banner of EternalFlame, 173

WALES: Chris Mince, Dark Elves

BELGIUM: Thomas "Artur” Jacobs, Dark Elves
28 Witch Elves: FCG, Banner of the Eternal Flame, 348

POLAND: Aleksander "Rince" Jaworowski, Dark Elves

CROATIA: Marko Petrović, Dark Elves
28 Witch Elves: FCG, Banner of Eternal Flame, 348

ENGLAND: Craig Johnson - Dark Elves.
20 Witch Elves: Musician; Standard Bearer, Banner ofEternal Flame, 250

ITALY: Alberto Petrosino - Dark Elves
21 Witches, Musician, Champion, Standard, Banner of the Eternal Flame - 271

NETHERLANDS: Alexander Frenzel, Dark Elves
25 Witch Elves: Additional hand weapon, Musician, Standard, Gleaming Pennant: 300

NORWAY: Hallvard Haugen, Dark Elves

FRANCE: Chazeau Alain, Dark Elves
28 Witch Elves : FCG, razor standard, 383pts

HUNGARY: Pásztor Balázs, Dark Elf
28 Witchelf: FCG, Razor Standard, 383

FINLAND:
30 Witch Elves: FCG, Razor Standard, 405
10 Witch Elves: Musician, 120

LATVIA: Ioann Ban (Alhok) - Dark Elves

RUSSIA: SERGEY #DM Crew# KOVROV - DARK ELVES

SCOTLAND: Andy Potter, Dark Elves
10 Witch Elves: musician, banner, banner of eternalflame, 140

UKRAINE:
30 Witch Elves: FCG, Razor Standard, 405

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

E) Really? Tournament builds use Witches. I can tell you, Less than an eighth of last year's ETC lists used them as anything more than chaff...

Couple of points.
ETC isn't normal warhammer. Armies are built for specific match ups not a blind draw, and the numbers you have on ETC is flat out Wrong.
10 Lists have a unit of 20+ witch elves; out of 28 lists, little over 35% of them. If you add in armies with smaller units (less than 20), you add another 5 to that list. Now your at 53% of world thinking that witch elves are a good idea.
What's more important, is that just about every single list has 4 bolt throws, and 4 characters on Pegasus, warlocks and fast cav, with ~20 or so shooters.

Here's the link to the thread, it's actually a pretty good read.
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=75357


And below is the list of the armies from the thread, edited down to just show witch elves.

Here's 2014 ETC:
Multiple Peggy Lists:

AUSTRALIA: Nick "Sigvald LeCok " Legrand, Dark Elves

AUSTRIA: Rasmus Hammer, Dark Elves

BULGARIA: Yordan Deliyski, Dark Elves
12 Witch Elves: Champion, Musician, 152

DENMARK: Daniel Hedegaard, Dark Elves

GERMANY: Felix "Monstagoblin" Dahlke, Dark Elves
13 Witch Elves: Standard, Musician, 163

GREECE: Konstantinos “Xereus” Andreanos, DARK ELVES

IRELAND: Chris DGame Smith – The Syphalitic Host

NEW ZELAND: Tim Joss, Dark Elves

SINGAPORE: Jon Wang "Big Wang", Dark Elves
28 Witch Elves: FCG, Banner of the Eternal Flame, 348

SPAIN: Manuel "Muzgot" Aviles - Dark Elves
12 Witch Elves: 132

SWEDEN: Johan Lagmo, Dark Elves

SWITZERLAND: Andy Geiser, Dark Elves

USA: Alex Schmid, Dark Elves
13 Witch Elves: Standard, Musician, Banner of EternalFlame, 173

WALES: Chris Mince, Dark Elves

BELGIUM: Thomas "Artur” Jacobs, Dark Elves
28 Witch Elves: FCG, Banner of the Eternal Flame, 348

POLAND: Aleksander "Rince" Jaworowski, Dark Elves

CROATIA: Marko Petrović, Dark Elves
28 Witch Elves: FCG, Banner of Eternal Flame, 348

ENGLAND: Craig Johnson - Dark Elves.
20 Witch Elves: Musician; Standard Bearer, Banner ofEternal Flame, 250

ITALY: Alberto Petrosino - Dark Elves
21 Witches, Musician, Champion, Standard, Banner of the Eternal Flame - 271

NETHERLANDS: Alexander Frenzel, Dark Elves
25 Witch Elves: Additional hand weapon, Musician, Standard, Gleaming Pennant: 300

NORWAY: Hallvard Haugen, Dark Elves

FRANCE: Chazeau Alain, Dark Elves
28 Witch Elves : FCG, razor standard, 383pts

HUNGARY: Pásztor Balázs, Dark Elf
28 Witchelf: FCG, Razor Standard, 383

FINLAND:
30 Witch Elves: FCG, Razor Standard, 405
10 Witch Elves: Musician, 120

LATVIA: Ioann Ban (Alhok) - Dark Elves

RUSSIA: SERGEY #DM Crew# KOVROV - DARK ELVES

SCOTLAND: Andy Potter, Dark Elves
10 Witch Elves: musician, banner, banner of eternalflame, 140

UKRAINE:
30 Witch Elves: FCG, Razor Standard, 405

There were 25 dark elf players this year.

http://baddice.co.uk/downloads/etclists2014.pdf

Check it.

Regardless of whether 25 or 28 players in the 2014 ETC played DE, your assertion that "less than an 8th" used Witch elves as anything more than chaff doesn't hold water.

According to the link you posted, 8 out of 25 (right at 1 in 3) had units of 20+ Witch Elfs, and another 5 had units between 10-19.

But it's immaterial because ETC isn't real Warhammer, anyway. It's so heavily (and arbitrarily) comped that any ideas of list building that crop up there are irrelevant to everyone else.

I've found Witches get into the fights I want them in quite regularly. The trickier part is getting the Executioners into the fights I want them to get into - against the very heavily-armored stuff that Witches struggle with. But then, that's what the chaff cloud is for...

In my experience, Witches will slaughter everything that has a 4+ or worse save. Poison and ASF rerolls makes toughness almost irrelevant. I've killed T8 Necrosphinxes with Witches in ONE ROUND. I regularly slaughter Ogres and Dwarves with Witches. Most core units go down like tenpins. The simple fact is, vast numbers of attacks will shred anything that doesn't have a REALLY good save. Period. And since they do it BEFORE the other side swings, the number of incoming attacks is drastically reduced in the vast majority of cases (a target unit needs to be over six ranks deep to still have a full three ranks after Witches get done).

And heaven forbid I get a good magic phase off. Miasma vs. WS, Withering/Enfeebling, Soulblight, Word of Pain, Wildform, Enchanted Blades, the list of good buffs for Witches goes on and on. And Mindrazor, when it goes off, turns them into a magic unit eraser. You need good WARD saves to survive that... and only a few units have them.

Corsairs are solid, don't get me wrong... but WFB 8th is not won by surviving the enemy attacks. It's won by destroying the enemy unit. 2 attacks and 4+ armor does not trump 3 poison attacks. Sorry. I tried it a few times. They simply do not perform at the same level as Witches do.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


A) No decent list in all of Europe and the UK uses any infantry. Let alone witches. The entire thing about witches being one of the best unit in the book is nothing more than a fallacy. Yes. I am implying that if people do well with witches, then the meta is full of unskilled players. They are a unit with far more bad matchups than good. Against something like WoC. They do well against marauders, and at a very strenuous push, warriors. If they're marked Nurgle, then you've got nothing. The prince, Knights, Chariots, Trolls, Drogres and Skullcrushers all ruin them. Anything with a 3+ save or better ruins them. Anything that has a ranged attack ruins them. Anything that denies them rerolls ruins them.

B) Witch elves don't annihilate anything they touch, unless it's skaven, empire infantry or marauders. That's a fact. Anything with enough armour, or stats to withstand their attacks, which includes most of the stuff you want them to fight, will ruin them. As for the countering business, that is also untrue. Wild riders do horrible things to witches. And executioners. Plaguebearers do the same. As do Daemonettes, strangely enough. There are plenty of counters to witches in the meta, and most of what counters them, also counters executioners. Stuff like fast cav.

C) I'm just going to point out that fleetmasters do have some dirty tricks in conjunction with the rest of the book. Mainly the unbreakable. I've used one to great effect in the past. They're average. Just like people raved about witches when the book first came out, and called him useless, and that's mostly faded amongst skilled players, neither are true.

D)S3 with armour piercing is a -1 penalty. Anything with a 3+ armour will still just tank them fairly well. With all the monstrous cav, and normal cav about, the only infantry that has a place on the field are executioners, and even then, they're an inferior choice. My pseudo-deathstar unit of executioners(Capable of taking off 2400 points in a round of combat) is still my fluffy army.

E) Really? Tournament builds use Witches. I can tell you, Less than an eighth of last year's ETC lists used them as anything more than chaff, and no UK tournament list from any event that matters for rankings had them in. For players like me, whenever someone puts a horde of witches on the board, I clap my hands in glee and tell them, that's the 20-0 to me. 100%. The best dark elf builds out there right now are the cauldron bowline, fast cav points denial, and the warlockstar. All of which are infinitely better than witches. As it stands, witches are a fluff choice. Not a competitive one.

a) Funny, don't High Elf lists commonly use Infantry in their Alarielle Light Councils? Those competitive Dwarf, Daemons, Beastmen, Lizardmen, Skaven and Vampire Counts lists that are FORCED to use Infantry say hi. Your point is completely and utterly facetious. Witch Elves CAN beat things with a 1+ or 2+ armour save if they are either lacking in numbers or wounds because Witch Elves force through a ridiculous amount of saving throws, especially if Armour Piercing is thrown on against 2+ armoured opponents. Witch Elves with the Razor Standard mow down 3+ armoured foes - especially with a Cauldron of Blood - because you simply cannot stand up the amount of saving throws they push through. Things with a ranged attack don't ruin them when a Cauldron is attached, and funnily enough when you are shooting my CORE Witch Elves you probably aren't focusing on my SPECIAL Executioners. Shoot one or the other, if either of them gets into combat you are going to get destroyed and that has been the case in every single game I have played with or against Dark Elves or watched. Denying their re-rolls to hit also does not ruin them because they still dish out three attacks per model with Poison and will still mow through units like a lawn-mower.

b) Ummm, yes they do. Here's a few examples from my list of scalps for my Witch Elves so far; surviving a charge from three 15 strong 2+ armoured Brettonian Knight units in the same combat phase and beating them over three rounds of combat, surviving a frontal charge from 40 Eternal Guard and a flank charge from 2 Treemen and proceeding to claim victory, surviving a frontal charge from ten Chaos Knights and smashing them in two rounds, annihilating twenty-four strong Chaos Warrior units with shields, slaughtering 30 Dwarf Warriors with shields despite being reduced to eighteen Witch Elves from shooting, eating entire units of Saurus Warriors or Temple Guard at a time on numerous occasions - all of them at least 24 strong - mowing through eighteen Ironguts, beating Blood Knights with multiple attached Vampire characters and so on. In each of those occasions barring the time they killed all those Dwarves, they had an attached Cauldron of Blood and the Razor Standard. This type of unit mows through absolutely everything that isn't 1+ armoured monstrous cavalry with a punch like Skullcrushers. Massed infantry, monsters of all kinds and so on are all fodder for this kind of Witch Elf unit. Curiously, you said earlier that denying their re-rolls, having a 3+ armour save or having a shooting attack ruins them, but all of the above are examples of them crushing such opposition. Even against Wood Elf and Dwarf gun-lines my Witch Elves still hit home, whether at half-strength or with only a few ranks, and they still butcher pretty much anything that gets in their way. You can try and claim anecdotal evidence all you want but when the unit(s) pull off these kinds of performances on a consistent basis both for me and other players, saying they are a bad melee unit is a fallacy. A hilarious fallacy.

c) But what Dark Elf unit wants to be used as a tarpit instead of an outright damage dealer? Elves work by providing massive damage output, having crazy mobility to pick their fights and generally being very versatile. Even Black Guard, the supposed Phoenix Guard equivalent for Dark Elves, don't want to be used in this way - the only two units that might fit the bill are Corsairs and Sisters of Slaughter. In that case though, Sisters drop like flies to shooting and Corsairs lack the damage output to be anything but a tarpit....which they perform just fine with a cheaper Bloodwrack Shine. The Fleetmaster just doesn't suit the rest of the army, and even if you build him for pure defence he is still likely to get thrashed in one round of combat by something like a Vampire Blender Lord. Remember, he has to be in a challenge for his Unbreakable gimmick to work, and smart opponents will exploit that pretty quickly.

d) No they won't. 3+ armoured units evaporate on a regular basis against Witch Elves with the Razor Standard, especially if you add a Cauldron or Witchbrew into the mix. I'm sorry, but how often do you use Witch Elves against those types of units? I might concede if the unit in question has three or more wounds per model and is run in a unit of twelve or more, but then that unit will greatly out-point the Witch Elves anyway on their own. As Vulcan says, 4+ or worse armoured models will get destroyed by Witch Elves because re-rolls to hit with three Poisoned Attacks per model and easily obtained re-rolls to wound (whether just 1s or all rolls) is absolutely brutal, especially considering it is a Core unit that costs the same as Corsairs. Hence, the Razor Standard on Witch Elves will butcher 3+ armoured models. Simple. Unless you are an Empire, Brettonian or High Elf player, all-cavalry lists with 2+ or 1+ saves spread throughout the entire army are impossible to get. Even against those armies, Witch Elves can still beat down on cavalry units with inferior stats to themselves - which is most of them. Executioners are there for a reason in the Special slot, while Witch Elves populate the Core slot. Am I missing something here? A combat death-star in the Core slot is a GOOD THING, right? Witch Elves are generally terrifying even without a Cauldron of Blood, even if you can shoot them to death, because once they reach combat everyone knows they will wreck face. For a Core unit, how is this anything but a good thing?

e) As HawaiiMatt has clarified, you are completely wrong here. Not only do ETC lists use them commonly, but they also appear quite frequently here in Australia and I'm assuming America as well. Un-comp Europe is not the only meta in existence, and I'm pretty sure Witch Elves still pop up there as well in some capacity. If Witch Elves were the "worst unit in the Dark Elf" book as you stated - and yes, you are on record for stating that - then why would they appear in that many tournament lists? The answer is pretty simple; because they are a GOOD UNIT.

The claim that Witch Elves are the "worst unit in the Dark Elf" book surely has to be the most inaccurate thing written about the army book posted on this forum, right? How on earth does anyone jump to that conclusion. Seriously? How!? Because quite clearly so many tournament lists would use the "worst unit in the Dark Elf book" regularly for no other reason other than themed lists, right? Because clearly Witch Elves don't punch well above their weight commonly despite being a Core choice, right?

Additionally, if you actually buff them with magic or debuff your opponents like any normal army list would do, what happens next? Heaven help anything that is the target of Soublight or any one of the Shadow Hex spells when facing off against Witch Elves. Oh, and if it wasn't obvious, Witch Elves are quite possibly the best unit in the game to be given Mindrazor. Everything will fall to that unit. Everything. Oh, and good luck killing my Toughness 7 Witch Elves if they have a 5+ ward save from the Cauldron of Blood. Enchanted Blades of Alban is also absolutely ridiculous on Witch Elves and the Lore of Metal suits them perfectly by removing the well-armoured units you don't want them facing off against.

 pinkbunnies wrote:
Well, I love the Lizardmen & their dinosaurs, but Wood Elves might be nice since there seems to be females you can have in your army. I don't have access to their most recent codex though, so I'm not sure how I would want to go about creating a Wood Elves army.

I know the name of the army is 'LizardMEN,' but from a guy who has had a lizard sharing his home for most of his life, many lizards are identical until you look at the plumbing... which they store internally until in use.

Though, if you're dead-set on having lizards with boobs, it is easy enough to order them from a 3rd-party company. I'm modeling up some very female Fire Warriors for my Tau.

Well, I decided on Wood Elves. I got the Sisters of the Thorn, and it turns out my guy is going to do the whole Blood Cauldron/Witch Elves/Executions etc. type nonsense. Anyone have any advice for Wood Elves?

Curse of Anriheir. Gives those witches -1 to hit, and forces dangerous tests on any movement which is failed on a 1 or 2. They do get the ward against the dangerous, but not MR.
I'd then consider a trio of waystalkers. Being able to snipe out the DE wizards can be really useful.

I don't believe you get ANY saves vs. Dangerous Terrain tests...

Advice? Look at it this way: executioners and witches are going to destroy literally every unit from the WE army that they get in close combat with. This is the premise. The good thing is that those DE units cost a lot of points, aren't particularly resilient, and must get in close combat to score points.
So, as a WE, maneuver to avoid them completely. The first couple of turns focus on killing those small, fast units that limit your movement, and then keep running around the melee blocks.
Remember, as a WE you win first of all because you can deny your opponent a lot of victory points. Is it fun? It is if you like games like chess, which heavily focus on preparation and positioning. If you like to march big units into each other and roll a lot of dice, it isn't.

PS. Of all the DE units, I'm not sure why anyone would charge witches with wild riders. Even on the rear, they are going to get wiped, or, if you are lucky, suffer heavy losses.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Curse of Anriheir. Gives those witches -1 to hit, and forces dangerous tests on any movement which is failed on a 1 or 2. They do get the ward against the dangerous, but not MR.
I'd then consider a trio of waystalkers. Being able to snipe out the DE wizards can be really useful.

This is definitely helpful advice, thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vetril wrote:
Advice? Look at it this way: executioners and witches are going to destroy literally every unit from the WE army that they get in close combat with. This is the premise. The good thing is that those DE units cost a lot of points, aren't particularly resilient, and must get in close combat to score points.
So, as a WE, maneuver to avoid them completely. The first couple of turns focus on killing those small, fast units that limit your movement, and then keep running around the melee blocks.
Remember, as a WE you win first of all because you can deny your opponent a lot of victory points. Is it fun? It is if you like games like chess, which heavily focus on preparation and positioning. If you like to march big units into each other and roll a lot of dice, it isn't.

PS. Of all the DE units, I'm not sure why anyone would charge witches with wild riders. Even on the rear, they are going to get wiped, or, if you are lucky, suffer heavy losses.

I wasn't planning on charging the Witch Elves with the Sisters of Thorn, I was figuring I would stay the hell away from them and shoot at them with appropriate unit(s). My main in WAR was a Witch Elf, so yeah, I want to avoid melee with them at much as possible. The Sisters and Wild Riders seem like a good value vs. points cost. My guy said that he has use different units specifically for fighting my WE, because of the arrows with the armor save modifier.

The thing is (going from memory) a GG with bodkins is 8 skaven slaves. A waywatcher is 10 skaven slaves, has +1 to hit and comes with something that is better that having both bodkins and multishoot arrows. They are also skirmishers, scouts, and have 2 attacks in CC. Points for points, they are better.
Personally I see no reason to take GG with bodkins if I don't already have 20 WW. Maybe it you want other rare units, but I'm not a fan of the treeman.

Vetril wrote:
The thing is (going from memory) a GG with bodkins is 8 skaven slaves. A waywatcher is 10 skaven slaves, has +1 to hit and comes with something that is better that having both bodkins and multishoot arrows. They are also skirmishers, scouts, and have 2 attacks in CC. Points for points, they are better.
Personally I see no reason to take GG with bodkins if I don't already have 20 WW. Maybe it you want other rare units, but I'm not a fan of the treeman.

You're right. I was planning on taking Waywatchers. Besides Glade Guard, there's also Glade Riders and Deepwood Scouts that can take bodkins. The Scouts are 13 pts each, and also have Scout and Skirmisher. I don't want Eagles or Treeman, but I was thinking of having something big and obnoxious to roll out first to keep the DE(and other armies) occupied while my other units are sneakier and can do a bunch of shooting.

If you've got wood elves, and want them to be good in general, then you have one build.


If you want them for this particular matchup, life magic and treekin, with treemen.

And the rest is shooting.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you've got wood elves, and want them to be good in general, then you have one build.


If you want them for this particular matchup, life magic and treekin, with treemen.

And the rest is shooting.

If you tailor, the 2nd time expect to face fire mages, pegasus spam and 4 rbts.

Vetril wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you've got wood elves, and want them to be good in general, then you have one build.


If you want them for this particular matchup, life magic and treekin, with treemen.

And the rest is shooting.

If you tailor, the 2nd time expect to face fire mages, pegasus spam and 4 rbts.

Pegspam isn't that great, as you only have one cloak of twilight.

The four bolt throwers are all you need. That, and a lot of pressure.

But they do have easy access to 1+ armor saves, and if they're willing to put the points out, give all of them decent ward saves as well. I'll grant you that it won't save any single one of them, but when there are four or five buzzing around, plus all the usual DE unit-based threats...

 Vulcan wrote:
but when there are four or five buzzing around, plus all the usual DE unit-based threats...

...They'll charge all of your archers on turn 2.

Arcane Bodkins are not that great.
All Wood Elf shooting is already AP, so paying that big price hike for an extra -2 isn't necessary.

Not when (a) the units that can take Bodkins can also take Trueflight and Hagsbane, which are easily the best choices, and (b) Waywatchers can ignore armour all together.

Though, if he is taking Witch Elves...a block with Swiftshiver Shards might have a place in the list, too.

Vetril wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
but when there are four or five buzzing around, plus all the usual DE unit-based threats...

...They'll charge all of your archers on turn 2.

Well, the Woodies will get one turn of shooting off, so I'd assume SOMETHING will die. Just not EVERYTHING.

Not from core shooting... Say you have 45 archers, that's 30 hits, 10 wounds, 1-2 unsaved by armor - then there are ward saves. Pegasus heroes don't reallly go down to glade guard arrows. Furthermore, consider that you are focus firing an extremely small number of models, which means that while you deal with pegasi, the rest of his army will march towards you relatively uncontested.
You need at least WW and magic to handle pegasus spam.