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 casvalremdeikun wrote:

As for the protocols that Space Marines were held to, the mere existance of the Grey Knights AT ALL is a breach of that. And the wording is very odd in the passages. Why would they say "Created in secret by the Emperor" not "Created in secret FROM the Emperor"?

Because they were created by the Emperor, in secret.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
EDIT: And besides, the Grey Knights being created from Loyalist members of the Traitor Legions is a LOT cooler than them being created from the Emperor.

Maybe, and others probably think that being the direct sons of the Emperor is pretty boss too.

 Ruberu wrote:


As for the Death Guard, it is believed that Loyalists from the Death Guard started the Death Watch after the Horus Heresy.

The Deathwatch was founded much later and aren't exactly a chapter, they are a hodge podge of marines drawn from various chapters. There were 12 that were selected by Malcador to form the Iniquisition and of the 12 that were chosen, 4 would go on to be the Inquisitions grand masters and 8 Space Marines were used in the formation of the Grey Knights.

Also something different from the the 5th and 7th Ed codex.

To find so many suitable candidates Malcador's Servants had searched the millions of planets of the Imperium, taking aspirants from the seed worlds of the Loyalist Legions as well as ranks of the Imperial Army.

So it would seem that no actual Space Marines were used in the founding. The 8 marines, I would assume Garro being one of these, being used to train the new recruits. Which imho makes more sense. To become a Grey Knight they have to have the 18 Gene-seeds implanted. I know you can remove the progenoids, but I do not believe you can remove the Bletchers Gland or the Biscopea. Now ok, you might not have to, but if they are all keyed to only work with certain sets I couldn't imagine you would have a set of Gene seed from the Death Guard working with Grey Knights organs.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Except nowhere did it say that new geneseed was made directly from the emperor, its pure speculation.



As for the blood raven discussion, it was part of the point of predeceases of (quite likely) events of using traitor geneseed.

It says on Pg 1 of the GK codex in black and white. The old Codex said the same but wasn't as direct and clear. The new Codex pretty much says that that's exactly the case.

"Created in secret by the emperor" does not directly translate to "using the emperors own geneseed"

My mistake, Pg 7. The 2nd page of actual fluff.

Deadshot wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Except nowhere did it say that new geneseed was made directly from the emperor, its pure speculation.



As for the blood raven discussion, it was part of the point of predeceases of (quite likely) events of using traitor geneseed.

It says on Pg 1 of the GK codex in black and white. The old Codex said the same but wasn't as direct and clear. The new Codex pretty much says that that's exactly the case.

"Created in secret by the emperor" does not directly translate to "using the emperors own geneseed"

My mistake, Pg 7. The 2nd page of actual fluff.

Do you have a qoute? because I fail to find anything that says they are directly form the emperor's geneseed.

Psienesis wrote:The Codex goes into some detail about why the other Space Marines, being copies of copies (from the Emp to the Primarcs, then from the Primarchs to the individual Marines, and then down the line for 10,000 years) are subject to geneseed mutation, instability and other issues, but then explains that, because the GK share a direct genetic link to the Emperor, they remain uncorrupted and pure, and do not suffer any genetic deviancy in their geneseed.

So all other Marines are Emp -> Primarch -> Space Marines (x10,000 years). GK are Emp -> GK (x10,000 years).

Since the Emperor's DNA was perfect, the geneseed He created from it for the GK is perfect, and thus suffers no instability or mutation, because the Emperor Himself cannot mutate.

You mean, like the primearchs were made directly from the emperor, and therefor must be uncorruptable?

Because of the at least 21 that existed, 2 got so horribly wrong they got expunged from records, and 10 turned to chaos during the horus heresy..

This train of thought in inheritly flawed, given the lackluster results of the primearchs themselves (who got far more effort into each individual) to assume that the GK were made from the emperor and therefor they are perfect.

 BoomWolf wrote:


Because of the at least 21 that existed, 2 got so horribly wrong they got expunged from records, and 10 turned to chaos during the horus heresy..

The Emperor wasn't sent on a jolly by the Chaos Gods though.

Perhaps it could be argued that the Grey Knights are made from the pure, unaltered "Imperial Geneseed." The Legions and their Primarchs were made from geneseed the Emperor had experimented on to strengthen certain traits and reduce others.

Perhaps, but again this will be pure, unbased speculation.

None has seem to be able to find a qoute saying the emperor's own geneseed was used, or what geneseed was used at all.

All there is, is that the emperor created them in secret. the HOW however, is not mentioned, except the fact some of the founders were "loyalists among traitors"

 BoomWolf wrote:

All there is, is that the emperor created them in secret. the HOW however, is not mentioned, except the fact some of the founders were "loyalists among traitors"

What HOW are you looking for? How they recruited. From the 5th Edition Codex.

p6:Suitable recruits had been gathered from across the span of the galaxy; some were raw and untrained, others selected in secret from those Space Marine Legions that had remained loyal

or 7th

To find so many suitable candidates Malcador's Servants had searched the millions of planets of the Imperium, taking aspirants from the seed worlds of the Loyalist Legions as well as ranks of the Imperial Army.

on the actual Gene - Seed

From 5th

p6: New supplies of Gene-Seed lay preserved in cryovaults

p7: Where other Space Marine Chapters were built of existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.

And 7th

... cryovats hidden at its core contained vast stocks of gene - seed.

The Grey Knights' strength of spirit and and purity of body were the two most important gifts the Emperor passed onto the Chapter through his genetic legacy.

It is the unique quality that the Emperor possesses, the nature of his spirit that allows him to touch the warp, shape it to his will, and yet remain beyond madness, that he has gifted to the Grey Knights

... Not so the Grey Knights, who's unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain

It doesn't out right say that they have Emperor Gene - seed, but it's as close as you're going to get.

I've seen stronger arguements on other topics being dismissed.

This is far from clear-cut emperor geneseed. its clear he was involved in the creation of the geneseed, but not that he is the direct donor.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I've seen stronger arguements on other topics being dismissed.

This is far from clear-cut emperor geneseed. its clear he was involved in the creation of the geneseed, but not that he is the direct donor.

Good for you.

It's a stronger argument than the 'Grey Knights Gene - seed comes from loyalist traitors' have.

Quite frankly, we don't know, as I said on the first page of the thread

 Pilau Rice wrote:

So where it actually comes from, we don't know, it's just super special. It sounds like it might have come directly from the Emperor.

Grey Knight gene-seed comes from the Emperor.

The Emperor's Gift wrote:We watched in our vague ranks, conceding no dominance and offering no submission, facing them as equals. Perhaps they considered that their right, though in truth we did them a great honour. They were genetic thinbloods; their gene-seed formed from the flesh and blood of the Emperor’s son, Leman Russ. Our gene-seed came from a more direct, purer source. We didn’t call it the Emperor’s Gift as a jest.

Only one source is more direct than a Primarch.

Even the first eight had their gene-seed replaced with the new batch.

Pandorax wrote:Epimetheus tucked his arms and legs in as the ground quickly came up to meet him. It had been ten thousand years since he had free-fallen from a moving craft – in the days before he had sworn his new oaths and his gene-seed swapped out for that containing the Emperor’s own biological material – but the memory of it came easily to him.

As for the Crimson Sabres, defiantly not the Blood Angels, as they have no hint of the flaw.

Animus wrote:
G

Pandorax wrote:Epimetheus tucked his arms and legs in as the ground quickly came up to meet him. It had been ten thousand years since he had free-fallen from a moving craft – in the days before he had sworn his new oaths and his gene-seed swapped out for that containing the Emperor’s own biological material – but the memory of it came easily to him.

As for the Crimson Sabres, defiantly not the Blood Angels, as they have no hint of the flaw.

Wow, I didn't know they went so far as to swap the original founding members' gene seed with the Emperor's. In that case, suddenly the gene seed being from the original knights errant (Cruze, Garro, etc) and the gene seed being from the Emperor are NOT mutually exclusive scenarios.

I'm not sure how that is even possible, given what we are told about gene-seed and how it works.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not sure how that is even possible, given what we are told about gene-seed and how it works.

Emperor's SCIENCE. Or magic. Or both.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not sure how that is even possible, given what we are told about gene-seed and how it works.

It could be a reference instead to originally becoming a marine. With geneseed being used metaphorically for his human genetic lineage and also literally as actual geneseed.

Although it is possible you could literally swap one geneseed for another and undergo a second transformation, although to what end?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not sure how that is even possible, given what we are told about gene-seed and how it works.

It could be a reference instead to originally becoming a marine. With geneseed being used metaphorically for his human genetic lineage and also literally as actual geneseed.

Although it is possible you could literally swap one geneseed for another and undergo a second transformation, although to what end?

Would you not have to remove *all* of the Space Marine's special organs and progenoid glands and then re-implant them, as they are all grown from/altered by the geneseed? This, of course, is why certain Chapters have malfunctioning or absent additional organs... mutations/flaws in the gene-seed. Could one remove all of those parts from a Space Marine and replace them? And would that not really feth up their genetic chemistry, as you've now got 3 different genetic templates spliced into this poor bastard? You've got his original "human" DNA, you've got the geneseed from his first Chapter/Primarch, and now you're sticking the Emperor's wunder-genes into his body.

Well, given that Progenoids regulate the function of the other organs, its possible that simply replacing the progenoid itself might "assimilate" the other organs to whatever the new geneseed's genetic code is.

And honestly the various organs are going to be genetically 99.999999% identical across the various chapters except where some weird mutation has occurred.

I see no practical purpose for swapping the geneseed. Its most likely the author taking way too much creative license and/or total ignorance about even the most basic genetic know-wots.

Agreed. The "first batch" of GK could have been from where ever, it doesn't really change anything. The 2nd generation, and all subsequent generations, carry the wunder-seed, and so are directly descended from the Emperor by genetic link.

Which begs the question: why all the black magic rituals to ensure purity if they are genetically incapable of corruption?

What black magic? Knights of Khorne was retconned the feth out of.

 Psienesis wrote:
Agreed. The "first batch" of GK could have been from where ever, it doesn't really change anything. The 2nd generation, and all subsequent generations, carry the wunder-seed, and so are directly descended from the Emperor by genetic link.

Which begs the question: why all the black magic rituals to ensure purity if they are genetically incapable of corruption?

The Emperor's genetics protects them from the influence of the Gods, but corruption is not exclusively a physical thing. The GK can still use free will and say "Extra tentacles please! I'll kill some brothers and burn a world in return!" Essentially the tests are to test their resolve and willpower.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, given that Progenoids regulate the function of the other organs, its possible that simply replacing the progenoid itself might "assimilate" the other organs to whatever the new geneseed's genetic code is.

And honestly the various organs are going to be genetically 99.999999% identical across the various chapters except where some weird mutation has occurred.

I see no practical purpose for swapping the geneseed. Its most likely the author taking way too much creative license and/or total ignorance about even the most basic genetic know-wots.

But are the Gene - Seeds keyed to each other, so Imperial Fists for Imperial Fists. I wouldn't have thought you could replace a Blecthers Gland from a Fist with a Raven Guards, otherwise why not replace the mutated ones with more stable ones, say from the Ultras to have a fully working set?

They might do exactly the same thing across the Chapters/Legions but they are created from that specific Prmarch material.

Unless it's because the Emperor is the original template

 Quickjager wrote:
What black magic? Knights of Khorne was retconned the feth out of.

Sorcery, the Grey Knights use Sorcery in their wards and stuff against Daemons.

This just plain doesn't seem feasible to me. If the Grey Knights were direct descendants of the Emperor, then they would:
a.) be larger than normal Space Marines
b.)be stronger than normal Space Marines
c.) be as Psychically active as the Thousand Sons, if not more
Also, even if the GK were from the Big E's Gene-seed, they wouldn't be incorruptable. The Primarchs are a prime example of that. Also, Sanguinius suffered a Chaos mutation (the wings), but he was a direct descendant of the Emprah. So did Ferrus Manus (fluid silver hands). The Gene-seed can still suffer mutations, even if it did come directly from the Emprah; especially if the person's mind/spirit became corrupted by Chaos.
I think it more likely that the GK were forged from modified Ultramarine Gene-seed.
As a side note, is it just me or were the mutated Primarchs more loyal than the non-mutated ones? Also, I think I know why two of the Primarchs were wiped from the records - they were so mutated by the time the Emperor found them that they had either a.) become Daemon Princes or b.) were killed because of their mutations.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Agreed. The "first batch" of GK could have been from where ever, it doesn't really change anything. The 2nd generation, and all subsequent generations, carry the wunder-seed, and so are directly descended from the Emperor by genetic link.

Which begs the question: why all the black magic rituals to ensure purity if they are genetically incapable of corruption?

The Emperor's genetics protects them from the influence of the Gods, but corruption is not exclusively a physical thing. The GK can still use free will and say "Extra tentacles please! I'll kill some brothers and burn a world in return!" Essentially the tests are to test their resolve and willpower.

Other way around actually.

GKs are immune to spiritual corruption, but physical corruption is still a thing. A GK can still be killed by Nurgle's Rot. He can even be forcibly possessed by a daemon. He will never, however, pledge fealty to chaos and become a servant.

 Orock wrote:
Their genestock was taken from the still loyal after horus had half the legions join him. I know at least one of the first leaders was from the death guard. Basically those who had thrown everything away to stay loyal. Which supposedly is why they never get corrupted.

Don't know about death guard, but Atleast one of the Original GK was a Dark Angel from the intrachapter war on Caliban. He is also not at all happy with either the current GK or DA, from Pandorax: an Apoc novel. Probably more on were he came from in the HH Pandorax, but I have not read that one yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know considering what Corvus had to go through to get gene-stock to try and do a fast rebuild of his legion, makes you wonder how Malcador was even able to get fresh stock for the GK. Unless Big E had created it at the same times as the Primarchs and Custodians.

 dusara217 wrote:
This just plain doesn't seem feasible to me. If the Grey Knights were direct descendants of the Emperor, then they would:
a.) be larger than normal Space Marines
b.)be stronger than normal Space Marines
c.) be as Psychically active as the Thousand Sons, if not more
Also, even if the GK were from the Big E's Gene-seed, they wouldn't be incorruptable. The Primarchs are a prime example of that. Also, Sanguinius suffered a Chaos mutation (the wings), but he was a direct descendant of the Emprah. So did Ferrus Manus (fluid silver hands). The Gene-seed can still suffer mutations, even if it did come directly from the Emprah; especially if the person's mind/spirit became corrupted by Chaos.
I think it more likely that the GK were forged from modified Ultramarine Gene-seed.
As a side note, is it just me or were the mutated Primarchs more loyal than the non-mutated ones? Also, I think I know why two of the Primarchs were wiped from the records - they were so mutated by the time the Emperor found them that they had either a.) become Daemon Princes or b.) were killed because of their mutations.

Why would they be bigger than normal Space Marines, the Emperor was just a man. And I think the Grey Knights are as potent as the Thousand Sons, if a little less ambitious.

The Emperor wasn't sent off through the warp to other planets by the Chaos Gods.

Ferrus hands were gained after he had slain Asirnoth, the metal of its body coating his arms and hands.

barnowl wrote:

You know considering what Corvus had to go through to get gene-stock to try and do a fast rebuild of his legion, makes you wonder how Malcador was even able to get fresh stock for the GK. Unless Big E had created it at the same times as the Primarchs and Custodians.

That is a question. The GK codex in 5th seems to suggest that it was created during the Heresy

p6: The Grey Knights were something altogether new, the culmination of a project begun by the Emperor during the final days of the Horus Heresy

7th

The Grey Knights were born in the final bloody days of the Horus Heresy

 dusara217 wrote:
This just plain doesn't seem feasible to me. If the Grey Knights were direct descendants of the Emperor, then they would:
a.) be larger than normal Space Marines
b.)be stronger than normal Space Marines
c.) be as Psychically active as the Thousand Sons, if not more
Also, even if the GK were from the Big E's Gene-seed, they wouldn't be incorruptable. The Primarchs are a prime example of that. Also, Sanguinius suffered a Chaos mutation (the wings), but he was a direct descendant of the Emprah. So did Ferrus Manus (fluid silver hands). The Gene-seed can still suffer mutations, even if it did come directly from the Emprah; especially if the person's mind/spirit became corrupted by Chaos.
I think it more likely that the GK were forged from modified Ultramarine Gene-seed.
As a side note, is it just me or were the mutated Primarchs more loyal than the non-mutated ones? Also, I think I know why two of the Primarchs were wiped from the records - they were so mutated by the time the Emperor found them that they had either a.) become Daemon Princes or b.) were killed because of their mutations.

A) Prove the Emperor was larger than the Primarchs and then prove your idea that Gk would be bigger. Geneseed is just the genetic code used to make the organs, not anything special. The Emperor used his DNA, that's all.
B) Have you read the Codex? "As above other Astartes as they are above the common of humanity" ring a bell?
C) They are all psykers who actively use their powers to communicate and fight in every battle
The Primarchs were created with help from the Dark Gods. They are still capable of making a choice to turn against the Emperor, the whole Free Will business.
Ferrus' hands were a result of drowning a giant metal thing in lava, he wasn't mutated.
Sanguinius' wings are a result of GENETIC mutation, caused by the radiation on Baal. Think of what supposedly happens when you get hit by nuclear fallout.
It's just you.
There is no theory. There is no reason behind why they were wiped. They were wiped and that's it, GW don't have a reason behind it other than "make your own chapter/legion."

 Deadshot wrote:
The Primarchs were created with help from the Dark Gods.

We don't know that for a fact, do we? Far as I know, that's just speculation. Although they were of course kidnapped and cast across the galaxy by them.

Ferrus' hands were a result of drowning a giant metal thing in lava, he wasn't mutated.

That's just a legend, and a fairly unbeleivable one at that. Primarchs aren't immune to molten rock that is thousands of degrees hot. He'd have burned up.

Sanguinius' wings are a result of GENETIC mutation, caused by the radiation on Baal. Think of what supposedly happens when you get hit by nuclear fallout.

You sure as hell don't sprout angel wings. It's obviously a mutation caused by warp exposure - unless it was part of his genetic code already.

tgjensen wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Primarchs were created with help from the Dark Gods.

We don't know that for a fact, do we? Far as I know, that's just speculation. Although they were of course kidnapped and cast across the galaxy by them.

In First Heretic

Ferrus' hands were a result of drowning a giant metal thing in lava, he wasn't mutated.

That's just a legend, and a fairly unbeleivable one at that. Primarchs aren't immune to molten rock that is thousands of degrees hot. He'd have burned up.

In Angel Exterminatus

Sanguinius' wings are a result of GENETIC mutation, caused by the radiation on Baal. Think of what supposedly happens when you get hit by nuclear fallout.

You sure as hell don't sprout angel wings. It's obviously a mutation caused by warp exposure - unless it was part of his genetic code already.

The operative word is daemon. It's possible it is telling the truth, but it is also very possible it is lying through its teeth.

As for Ferrus' origins, I haven't read Angel Exterminatus so I will concede that one.

Regarding Sanguinius' wings: No. The baseline assumption is that the universe works similarly to ours until shown otherwise. This is not the Marvel universe or the Fallout universe. Until we see proof otherwise, mutations do not cause people to sprout wings or turn green. When you make a fantastical claim like that, the onus is on you to prove it. Does anyone else on Baal have fantastic mutations? They are subjected to the same levels of background radiation, after all. That's a lot more than just 20 experiment subjects right there.

As for the other primarchs, you can make the argument that Magnus, Lorgar and Curze were affected by it as well. But even if they weren't, one in 20 is a much more significant number than one in however many people live on Baal.

tgjensen wrote:
The operative word is daemon. It's possible it is telling the truth, but it is also very possible it is lying through its teeth.

As for Ferrus' origins, I haven't read Angel Exterminatus so I will concede that one.

Regarding Sanguinius' wings: No. The baseline assumption is that the universe works similarly to ours until shown otherwise. This is not the Marvel universe or the Fallout universe. Until we see proof otherwise, mutations do not cause people to sprout wings or turn green. When you make a fantastical claim like that, the onus is on you to prove it. Does anyone else on Baal have fantastic mutations? They are subjected to the same levels of background radiation, after all. That's a lot more than just 20 experiment subjects right there.

As for the other primarchs, you can make the argument that Magnus, Lorgar and Curze were affected by it as well. But even if they weren't, one in 20 is a much more significant number than one in however many people live on Baal.

Except people on Baal have been living in the conditions for a number of generations. Assumption being that the radiation is lethal like our universe, only those that have a resistance or immunity of some sort would survive and have children, who would also survive and pass on that resistance to children. Natural selection.
Sanguinius is a new entity born of the Warp and genetic manipulation introduced to foreign conditions. It would be affected.
Lorgar, Kurze, Magnus? Expand, I don't follow.

You say our two universes work the same except we both know that is no where near the case. You realise this is the same universe that has the blanket statement "Logic and reason are useless?" The universe mostly works on hand wavium and the assumption that 12 year olds (target demographic) aren't smart enough to question plot holes.
YOU are the one who claimed it was Warp mutation in the first place. Prove it. The casket was sealed against the Warp. The Gods couldn't directly kill the Primarchs, only spirit away the caskets.

And finally, it could be lying through its teeth. But that is the only explanation ever given and generally accpeted, unless you propose another explanation.

 Deadshot wrote:
Except people on Baal have been living in the conditions for a number of generations. Assumption being that the radiation is lethal like our universe, only those that have a resistance or immunity of some sort would survive and have children, who would also survive and pass on that resistance to children. Natural selection.
Sanguinius is a new entity born of the Warp and genetic manipulation introduced to foreign conditions. It would be affected.

Wait, so Sanguinius is born of the warp but not affected by the warp? We have plenty of evidence of loads of people being mutated by the warp. It's a common trope among chaos followers. And we have no cases of anyone being stated as mutated by exposure to radiation. Just because it happens in Marvel comics doesn't mean it has any bearing on the 40k universe. It's a wholly illogical jump to conclusions.

Lorgar, Kurze, Magnus? Expand, I don't follow.

I am referring to their psychic and/or precognitive abilities, which in the past has been referred to as mutations. Magnus also used to literally have only one central eye, making him a cyclops. This was attributed to warp exposure, but it may have been entirely retconned by now.

YOU are the one who claimed it was Warp mutation in the first place. Prove it.

I cannot prove it, but it is by far the most reasonable assumption, given the nature of the 40k universe. The other reasonable explanation is that it was part of his genetics, which I also stated. Unless you can dig up any other examples, there is no reason to think radiation causes that kind of mutation in the 40k universe.

The casket was sealed against the Warp. The Gods couldn't directly kill the Primarchs, only spirit away the caskets.

Nonsense. Consider the odds of all 20 caskets landing on habitable, let alone inhabited, let alone human-inhabited planets in all the galaxy. There are more Ork worlds than there are human ones, after all. And there is - by absolutely absurd magnitudes - more empty space than there are worlds. There is literally no chance the primarchs ended up where they did unless it was by design. If the Chaos gods wanted to kill the Primarchs they could have simply landed them on daemon worlds, ork worlds, probably even eldar or any other type of xenos world - or just directed them straight into a star. For whatever purpose, they were absolutely intended to survive.