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Who was the primarch of the grey knights, and do they have any sucsessor chapters.

Also, anyone know who the crimson sabres came from? I'm thinking BA.

The primarch of the Grey Knighst was suposedly the Emperor himself, Though nobody knows for sure.

Their genestock was taken from the still loyal after horus had half the legions join him. I know at least one of the first leaders was from the death guard. Basically those who had thrown everything away to stay loyal. Which supposedly is why they never get corrupted.

 Dannyrulx wrote:
Who was the primarch of the grey knights, and do they have any sucsessor chapters.

Also, anyone know who the crimson sabres came from? I'm thinking BA.

Their "Primarch" is the Emperor. It is rumoured that the Exorcists are a form of Grey Knight successor chapter.

Don't think it's known, but the blood, crimson and Khorne themes suggests Blood Angels. Ultimately though, their primogenitor chapter is left out because its irrelevant.

From the 5th Edition Gret Knights codex, don't know if this has changes now though.

p6:Suitable recruits had been gathered from across the span of the galaxy; some were raw and untrained, others selected in secret from those Space Marine Legions that had remained loyal

p6: New supplies of Gene-Seed lay preserved in cryovaults

p7: Where other Space Marine Chapters were built of existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.

From an interview of Decembers WD with James Swallow back in 2012

"But the questions I get asked most about Garro are about his future. Where will he end up? What is the significance of the colourless armour he wears in service to Malcador the Sigillite? Will he face Mortarion again? All these things will be answered in time, but I'll leave you with one revelation. He is not a Grey Knight. The question of who and what Nathaniel Garro is, and where his fate lies, is much more complicated than that..."

So where it actually comes from, we don't know, it's just super special. It sounds like it might have come directly from the Emperor.

RE: Crimson Sabres, it's unknown but from reading a lot of their fluff (I was at one point considering a Crimson Slaughter army so devoured everything I could about them) I'm putting my money on them being Imperial Fists gene-stock:

* They were big into martial discipline (lots of honor duels and stuff) and IF successors have that conclave of blades every so often

* They adhered insanely close to the Codex Astartes basically to troll everyone else and point out minor flaws to show how they were better for adhering to 100% of it, which seems like something Rogal Dorn would do.

* Their parent chapter at one point reprimanded them for their actions, which caused them to strictly adhere to the Codex as above - I can't see many chapters going out of their way to inform a successor about their shortcomings except for Fists and possibly Ultramarines; the rest seem like they wouldn't care.

* Very prideful to the point of arrogance and feeling that they couldn't do anything wrong, again something Rogal Dorn would do.

Another possibility is White Scars, because they seemed a bit uncouth and slightly barbaric to others ("Base curs" as the Dark Angels Master referred to them), and IIRC they had a fondness for lightning-fast strikes against enemies.

They cannot be Blood Angels because they don't suffer from the Red Thirst/Black Rage. Their corruption is 100% due to the machinations of Tzeentch, nothing Khorne about it they just slaughter people to stop the ghostly voices driving them insane.

RE: Grey Knights it's largely hinted that it's the Emperor's own geneseed, since GKs are immune to corruption from daemons and the like (or at least they used to be). Although the original founding members were IIRC from all chapters, including some from the Traitor Legions (Garro of the Death Guard springs to mind) who had refused to go to Chaos, but the Imperium probably wouldn't use traitor geneseed (except possibly for the Minotaurs I think, who are rumored to be World Eater geneseed, and maybe the Carcharodons who I think might be Night Lords geneseed)

I would rather their gene-seed was pooled from the surviving Loyalist members of the Traitor Legions. Think about it, these guys remained loyal to the Emperor despite the fact they would certainly be killed by those that were once their brothers. They also resisted the draw of Chaos once before, wouldn't it make sense that they would make good Daemon-hunters?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would rather their gene-seed was pooled from the surviving Loyalist members of the Traitor Legions. Think about it, these guys remained loyal to the Emperor despite the fact they would certainly be killed by those that were once their brothers. They also resisted the draw of Chaos once before, wouldn't it make sense that they would make good Daemon-hunters?

The problem is that the Gene-seed would be taken from a Legion that went Traitor regardless of how loyal the individual marine proved to be.

It's true that they resisted the draw of Chaos, but would another marine be able to withstand it, could the Legion of purer than pure Astartes take the risk that one of their members fall to Chaos, a risk increased by having Gene-seed taken from a betrayer legion?

I am not sure what the ramifications would be of having a Chapter with such a varied mix of Gene-seed. I can imagine in would cause some complications having Death Guard and possibly Luna Wolves, Iron Warriors and World Eaters Gene - Seed varieties.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would rather their gene-seed was pooled from the surviving Loyalist members of the Traitor Legions. Think about it, these guys remained loyal to the Emperor despite the fact they would certainly be killed by those that were once their brothers. They also resisted the draw of Chaos once before, wouldn't it make sense that they would make good Daemon-hunters?

The problem is that the Gene-seed would be taken from a Legion that went Traitor regardless of how loyal the individual marine proved to be.

It's true that they resisted the draw of Chaos, but would another marine be able to withstand it, could the Legion of purer than pure Astartes take the risk that one of their members fall to Chaos, a risk increased by having Gene-seed taken from a betrayer legion?

I am not sure what the ramifications would be of having a Chapter with such a varied mix of Gene-seed. I can imagine in would cause some complications having Death Guard and possibly Luna Wolves, Iron Warriors and World Eaters Gene - Seed varieties.

Exactly. They wouldn't use corrupted gene-seed (except in the direst of straits), and Space Marine creation doctrine precludes mixing gene-seed or using different stock for different ones, they'd all have to be the same stock to be "brothers". So they can't just randomly determine which Traitor stock to use.

It's also mentioned several times in the Black Library novels that not only do the Grey Knights themselves not know where their geneseed came from, they also specifically don't care - not knowing is a strength that lets them place their duty and devotion to the Emperor above any loyalty to a single fallible figure.

Current GK codex states that their geneseed is directly derived from the Emperor.

So they CLAIM.

IIRC its mentioned somewhere that one of the founders of the GK is a loyal word bearer, another a death guard.

From my understanding, they created a new geneseed from the "loyalists among traitors" that is used with new GK


While there are "rules" for how to use geneseed (you don't make new, you don't mix, you don't use traitors...) there are quite obvious cases of these rules being broken. we have multiple loyalists who are nearly clones of the traitor legions in behavior for example (minotaurs, blood ravens, carcharodons )

it's pretty interesting eh? The fluff bit of the rulebook keeps quite about them though...

Anymore thoughts?

The Blood Ravens are, outside of their tendency towards psychic ability and their use of a phrase that is common throughout the Imperium, not at all like the Thousand Sons. Just because you're a psychic Space Marine does not mean you have 1KS geneseed.

Overly psychic marines, who quite liturally have psykers in every rank up to chapter masters (the games fail to reflect this fluff piece, but its there), prefered method of operation is using heavy divinations to learn of the enemy and predict his movement rather than frontal assault (again games fail to reflect that)

They exist from the time of the heresy (Dawn of War: Ascension, its a book.)
"...The Ravens, I see them too! The lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!", vision from a Remembrancer that was with 1ksons at the time (A thousand sons) mentioning "the ravens of blood" chronologically before their existence, as someone who are connected to the 1ksons, can't get more obvious than that.

Etc, etc...we got pretty much everything aside of outright statement that the blood ravens are the descendants of the 1ksons that were sent away from prospero, coming from multiple sources in multiple books. pretty much every single source dealing with blood ravens mentions the 1ksons, and every source dealing with 1ksons mentions the blood ravens.
Its far more than just "they are both psyker heavy". they look the same, think the same and even talk the same-they are practically quoting each other.

Just read:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Ravens
"Possible connections to the 1k sons" and "tactics" both show clearly just how much the two are related.
Its one of the most obvious "secrets" in the 40k verse.

Like most everything else in 40k though most things are speculation and legend. They COULD be 1k Sons, or maybe they aren't.

Overly psychic marines, who quite liturally have psykers in every rank up to chapter masters (the games fail to reflect this fluff piece, but its there), prefered method of operation is using heavy divinations to learn of the enemy and predict his movement rather than frontal assault (again games fail to reflect that)

The games are where the Blood Ravens originate. Anything else from that point to flesh them out is retconning the presentation we are given in Dawn of War... and in Dawn of War, they pretty much fight like regular Space Marines. Deploy by Drop Pod, shoot some Xenos, steal some stuff, roll on.

After all, if their Divination was so good, they would have seen the work of Chaos in directing the Orks before the physical evidence was presented, no?

DOW is commonly seen as not an official source, neither was this discussion about the blood ravens. Any more and i'll call the mods. Sorry about that.

 Dannyrulx wrote:
DOW is commonly seen as not an official source, neither was this discussion about the blood ravens. Any more and i'll call the mods. Sorry about that.

Your question has already been answered. The GK carry geneseed cultivated directly from the Emperor of Mankind (for now, God knows what their next Codex will say).

It's never be mentioned anywhere in the lore, only guessed at, mostly in the Horus Heresy novels.
I personally believe that their genestock did directly come from the Emperor and that the founders, Loken, Qruze, Garro and Kendel amongst others, were the ones that implemented and trained the first Grey Knights-to-be during their time hidden in the warp on Titan. The founders were NOT the ones whose genestock was used for all subsequent Grey Knights

Basically, they're the only chapter who do NOT have a Primarch.

Their geneseed was created after all the others by the Emperor. Geneseed all leads back to the Emperor, through the Primarchs who were all slightly corrupted in some way. As GKs lack this corruption, we are lead to the only possible conclusion that the Emperor made geneseed directly from his own pure genetic material. Bypassing the Primarch stage.

The GKs would explicitly NOT have a Primarch. The Emperor is not their Primarch, but he is where their geneseed was derived from. Its a special case basically.

The founding members were from some of the Traitor legions, but their geneseed would not have been used to make new GKs as it was innately corrupt. They would have simply used the new superior geneseed.

Except nowhere did it say that new geneseed was made directly from the emperor, its pure speculation.



As for the blood raven discussion, it was part of the point of predeceases of (quite likely) events of using traitor geneseed.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Except nowhere did it say that new geneseed was made directly from the emperor, its pure speculation.



As for the blood raven discussion, it was part of the point of predeceases of (quite likely) events of using traitor geneseed.

It says on Pg 1 of the GK codex in black and white. The old Codex said the same but wasn't as direct and clear. The new Codex pretty much says that that's exactly the case.

As wonky as it is, that's what the current Codex says. Somewhere in what would be the latter days of the Heresy, the Emperor found the time to create geneseed out of his own genetic material, which would be placed in the vaults on Titan. When Titan pops out of the Warp, it has full banks and an entire Chapter of Marines, ready to go.

When a new GK Codex comes out, whenever that will be, maybe that will change, but until that happens, we have a fairly straightforward statement saying that the closest thing the GK have to a Primarch is the Emperor Himself.

 Deadshot wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Except nowhere did it say that new geneseed was made directly from the emperor, its pure speculation.



As for the blood raven discussion, it was part of the point of predeceases of (quite likely) events of using traitor geneseed.

It says on Pg 1 of the GK codex in black and white. The old Codex said the same but wasn't as direct and clear. The new Codex pretty much says that that's exactly the case.

"Created in secret by the emperor" does not directly translate to "using the emperors own geneseed"

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Except nowhere did it say that new geneseed was made directly from the emperor, its pure speculation.



As for the blood raven discussion, it was part of the point of predeceases of (quite likely) events of using traitor geneseed.

It says on Pg 1 of the GK codex in black and white. The old Codex said the same but wasn't as direct and clear. The new Codex pretty much says that that's exactly the case.

"Created in secret by the emperor" does not directly translate to "using the emperors own geneseed"

You mean not unlike the Space Marine Legions?

Who were each made off a primearch?


And knowing that geneseed IS collected from fallen marines, I'd sa its well within reason that "loyalists among traitors" really have been used as the template. after all, they HAVE proven to be very, very resistant.

The Codex goes into some detail about why the other Space Marines, being copies of copies (from the Emp to the Primarcs, then from the Primarchs to the individual Marines, and then down the line for 10,000 years) are subject to geneseed mutation, instability and other issues, but then explains that, because the GK share a direct genetic link to the Emperor, they remain uncorrupted and pure, and do not suffer any genetic deviancy in their geneseed.

So all other Marines are Emp -> Primarch -> Space Marines (x10,000 years). GK are Emp -> GK (x10,000 years).

Since the Emperor's DNA was perfect, the geneseed He created from it for the GK is perfect, and thus suffers no instability or mutation, because the Emperor Himself cannot mutate.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Who were each made off a primearch?


And knowing that geneseed IS collected from fallen marines, I'd sa its well within reason that "loyalists among traitors" really have been used as the template. after all, they HAVE proven to be very, very resistant.

This is exactly that I was trying to point out. Even if they were derived directly from the Emperor, much like the Primarchs, they would still be able to be corrupted (cuz, y'know, Horus...). The individuals that staved off corruption, in spite of numerous reasons why that would be incredibly difficult. Space Marines were supposed to be 100% subservient to their Primarch, and had undergone brain and mind manipulation to do so(part of the reason why I think Luther of the Traitor DA was able to rebel, he was augmented well into adulthood, rather than as an adolescent). Still, Loken et al remained loyal to the Emperor instead.

As for the protocols that Space Marines were held to, the mere existance of the Grey Knights AT ALL is a breach of that. And the wording is very odd in the passages. Why would they say "Created in secret by the Emperor" not "Created in secret FROM the Emperor"?

EDIT: And besides, the Grey Knights being created from Loyalist members of the Traitor Legions is a LOT cooler than them being created from the Emperor.

They do not really have a Primarch since they were not a founding chapter. Many that started the Grey Knights were the remaining loyal marines of traitor chapters. It is said that Qruze "The Half Heard" or Loken of the Sons of Horus "Lunar Wolves" was the first Grandmaster(s) of the Grey Knights.

As for the Death Guard, it is believed that Loyalists from the Death Guard started the Death Watch after the Horus Heresy.