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A couple of idiots going around berating people whilst the daily mail said it was much worse.

Daily Mail. Never again. It's pretty much Fox News.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
A couple of idiots going around berating people whilst the daily mail said it was much worse.

Daily Mail. Never again. It's pretty much Fox News.

Lol. How long did it take you to figure that one out? Daily Fail is what it should be called.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Of course not. Just a few nutters wandering around getting in people's faces.

As the report said they were swept up by a government death squad damn pronto.

KNOCK KNOCK
"Open up!
"Leave me alone or I'll call the Brute Squad!"
"We're on the Brute Squad"
"You ARE the Brute Squad"

I still think a fifth of the residents being born outside the UK is a bit mental. Account for a couple of generations and that Fox new report will probably be correct. What's so attractive about Birmingham? Long standing established Muslim communities?

On a slightly journalisty- related note another person on the box digs himself a hole...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/tim-willcox-apologises-to-daughter-of-holocaust-survivor-at-paris-rally-for-saying-palestinians-suffer-hugely-at-jewish-hands-as-well-9972840.html

 angelofvengeance wrote:
On a slightly journalisty- related note another person on the box digs himself a hole...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/tim-willcox-apologises-to-daughter-of-holocaust-survivor-at-paris-rally-for-saying-palestinians-suffer-hugely-at-jewish-hands-as-well-9972840.html

They do, but its not the correct to say it.

Comparing Israeli maltreatment of Palestinians to the Third Reich is a hate crime under EU law since 2003.

This journalist should know better. the way you say Israel are doing nasty things to Palestinians is to compare Israeli policy to apartheid instead.

This is looking for Anti-Semitism where there is none.

As for this "controversial comparison", it's an opinion. I think the apartheid one is a better comparison but comparing the treatment of Jews in 1930's Germany to the way Palestinian's are treated isn't invalid. It simplifies and exaggerates (if you get into the Holocaust end) the issue but I fail to see how it's a "Hate Crime".

Here's big Norman on the issue of Holocaust sympathy and crocodile tears.

Yes...


Fox News, you never cease to ama- well not amaze...make me cringe.

Good old Norman. I like a guy who says Hezbollah has the right to target civvies (though he clarifies so long as Israel keeps being a big terrorist and targeting civvies).

I mean, he does have a point about how any criticism of Israeli policy is often immediately met with cries of anti-Semitism, which is utter bs and anyone of sense can tell that.

 Orlanth wrote:

They do, but its not the correct to say it.
Comparing Israeli maltreatment of Palestinians to the Third Reich is a hate crime under EU law since 2003.

Whats the point of hate crime laws? So you can add more years to a persons sentence if he doesn't diversify his crime?

 Orlanth wrote:

This journalist should know better. the way you say Israel are doing nasty things to Palestinians is to compare Israeli policy to apartheid instead.

So having journalists calling it as it is is now a problem? I thought the entire point of Journalism was to convey information to other people.. who cares if anyone get offended.

Even journalists don't give a feth about Journalism anymore. Everybody was busy covering the "freedom of speech" and "freedom of press" rally in France where all kinds of leaders participated who regularly make a mockery of the concept.

I bet japanese nationals feel the same about some of the news that makes it's way over here. Like that supposed eyeball licking craze.

There was a financial commentator on one of the american news outlets who was interviewing the head of Ireland's investment agency who didn't know that Ireland had split from the UK.

Maybe we should discuss Japanese war crimes with Japanese nationals, Da Boss!

It'd be fun if nothing else.

Heh heh heh. That's always a touchy one at my school. Germans and Japanese both pretty common in the student body, and the Japanese kids are always pretty keen to read the history books on WW2.

The german kids are extremely well informed though.

When the Israeli's start lining the Palestinians up on the trains to the gas chambers, it might be a remotely accurate comparison.

It's also a leeetle bit insensitive a comment, considering the people being ascribed the same moral level as Nazi's are part of the ethnic group the Nazi's seriously went after. But hey, politically motivated hyperbole is far more fun than contributing anything worthwhile, eh wot?

 Ketara wrote:
When the Israeli's start lining the Palestinians up on the trains to the gas chambers, it might be a remotely accurate comparison.

It's also a leeetle bit insensitive a comment, considering the people being ascribed the same moral level as Nazi's are part of the ethnic group the Nazi's seriously went after. But hey, politically motivated hyperbole is far more fun than contributing anything worthwhile, eh wot?

What you can try to do is read about laws passed by Hitler between 1933 and 1940 about Jews with laws passed in Israel regarding Palestinians.
So long as you keep the lists separate if you live in the EU for legal reasons.

As far as pandering to sensibilities, stuff that.
Maybe Ketara you might also be concerned with if its a 'leetle bit insensitive' to bulldoze someones home to create a security zone, or new development exclusively for the chosen people.
Remembering that rehousing or any form of compensation are privileges that are not available to Palestinians.

This isn't a paper exercise, or historical look back, the suffering is happening now.

 Orlanth wrote:

What you can try to do is read about laws passed by Hitler between 1933 and 1940 about Jews with laws passed in Israel regarding Palestinians.
So long as you keep the lists separate if you live in the EU for legal reasons.

Sure. I eat dinners. Hitler ate dinners. I'm just like Hitler, right? Or since you'll probably complain that's an innocuous example, Nazi's had camps that kept people without trial. So does America. America is like the Nazi's, right?

The thing about comparing Nazis to people, is that you're trying to tar by association. The Nazis have gone down as the most morally corrupt regime and philosophy in existence, and by linking them to anything, the goal is to denigrate whatever it is you're linking them to. China has horrible policies towards ethnic minorities. Russia too. In fact, most of the world does. But despite all of those current days examples, and every historical example of ethnic oppression you could have potentially compared them to, you specifically picked the Nazis to compare them to. Why?

Because you wanted to link them with the most evil people that you could conceive of. And considering how many thousands of other examples of other nations/people do the same thing as the Israeli's do, they're really not that unique. It's not nice what they do, it's not acceptable what they do, but singling them out to stand alongside the people who shaved the hair off of small children, took their clothes, their belongings, and shoved them into gas chambers to asphyxiate to death?

That, my friend, is complete exaggeration.

As far as pandering to sensibilities, stuff that.
Maybe Ketara you might also be concerned with if its a 'leetle bit insensitive' to bulldoze someones home to create a security zone, or new development exclusively for the chosen people.
Remembering that rehousing or any form of compensation are privileges that are not available to Palestinians.

This isn't a paper exercise, or historical look back, the suffering is happening now.

That's wonderful. You been to Burma lately? China? Russia? Nigeria? Afghanistan? Zimbabwe? Azerbaijan? Ivory Coast? Syria? Ukraine? Iraq? Malawi? Saudi Arabia? Or any of the literally dozens of places where far greater numbers of people are suffering discrimination, poverty and destruction daily?

How many of them, I wonder, do you regularly pull out to stand in the front rank of the villains of humanity alongside Hitler and his cohorts? Not very many, I'll wager.

I'll say it once more, comparing Israel to the Nazi's because they engage in minor* discrimination and oppression is pure exaggeration.


*and it is minor, comparatively speaking considering all the things that get done around the world). They take land? Mugabe dispossessed just as many. They look down on others? You ever seen how Romanians treat the Roma? They lock people up? Have you seen what the Chinese do to locals who oppose them? Electricity and testicles often play a part. There are so many people doing so much worse out there right now, in contemporary times, that it is minor in comparison. That doesn't make it right, but should help to keep some perspective when handing out the Nazi references.

 Medium of Death wrote:
As for this "controversial comparison", it's an opinion. I think the apartheid one is a better comparison but comparing the treatment of Jews in 1930's Germany to the way Palestinian's are treated isn't invalid. It simplifies and exaggerates (if you get into the Holocaust end) the issue but I fail to see how it's a "Hate Crime".

Yeah, you can compare, and therefore notice how different both situations were. Or are. Should I used the past or present tense here?

Every time Israel comes up its "Wheels on the bus goes round and round, round and round, all day long."

 Jihadin wrote:
Every time Israel comes up its "Wheels on the bus goes round and round, round and round, all day long."

Tell me about it. I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond, God only knows there are enough sayings about arguing on the internet.

"Internet arguments, for when people want to shout in someone's face, but are too lazy to go down to the corner bar."

Speaking of corner bar and terrorism, I learned over New Year's that my wife can in no way, karyoke, especidally after 8 drinks. I think her singing killed a deer.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I still think a fifth of the residents being born outside the UK is a bit mental. Account for a couple of generations and that Fox new report will probably be correct. What's so attractive about Birmingham? Long standing established Muslim communities?

That would include EU citizens, non-Muslim spouses of British citizens, and British citizens born abroad.

E.g. my wife is Japanese, thus contributes to the percentage of people born outside the UK who live in the area around me. If my brother came back with his two children, they were both born outside the UK also, and are British citizens.

Joanna Lumley, Cliff Richard and Zoe Wanamaker are all not born in the UK British citizens.

Apparently 25% of the population of London are not born in the UK, because it is a major world city with massive international connections and industry, etc.

NYC has a 37% immigrant population I believe, so it's not really that crazy high.

I can see that argument for London, but I don't know that it holds much weight for Birmingham.

Most immigrants tend to be unskilled though so I'm not even sure about the London comparison as I'd imagine the skilled professionals make up a smaller percentage but probably bring in more money.

I don't think the Israel/Nazi Germany comparison raises its head out of anti-semitism. I genuinely believe it's because more people know about it than probably other aspects of history. It's a universally taught subject in the West, no? Mention WW2 to somebody and the first thing they'll likely say is the holocaust. It's also probably the reason that Godwins law exists and the prevalent overuse of the word "Nazi" happens.

 Medium of Death wrote:

I don't think the Israel/Nazi Germany comparison raises its head out of anti-semitism. I genuinely believe it's because more people know about it than probably other aspects of history. It's a universally taught subject in the West, no? Mention WW2 to somebody and the first thing they'll likely say is the holocaust. It's also probably the reason that Godwins law exists and the prevalent overuse of the word "Nazi" happens.

I wouldn't ascribe it to anti-semitism either. What I would ascribe it to, is the quite frank, exaggeration of the evils of Israel that get absolutely plastered across our screen and newspapers at every possible opportunity. And that I would put down to anti-semitism, if more and more of the inherited kind these days.

Having said that, it is an offensive comparison to make. When you single out the people who got nailed by the Nazi's, and say that they're just as bad as them, you're making a gross exaggeration, as I've already illustrated. If it was accurate, you would perhaps be justified in saying, 'Well damn the niceties'.

But until that day the Israelis start burning the Palestinians to fuel their giant Semitic Doomsday Cannon, it's just crass, inaccurate, and makes you look like a moron.*


*not you personally, MOD.

Mention WW2 to somebody and the first thing they'll likely say is the holocaust. It's also probably the reason that Godwins law exists and the prevalent overuse of the word "Nazi" happens.

My first thought is the phrase I always say to my wife: "Hey look theirs my people kicking the out of your people. Hey look theirs my people taking a dump on your people's Reichstag. Hey looK..." Thats about when the I see the bat swinging out of the corner of my eye.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I can see that argument for London, but I don't know that it holds much weight for Birmingham.

Most immigrants tend to be unskilled ...

No they don't.

Birmingham is the UK's second city, a major hub of transport and industry, with I don't know what percentage (but big) of the UK's land and population within a couple of hours travel.

 Ketara wrote:

Sure. I eat dinners. Hitler ate dinners. I'm just like Hitler, right? Or since you'll probably complain that's an innocuous example, Nazi's had camps that kept people without trial. So does America. America is like the Nazi's, right?

Rule #1, edited by motyak
The point of comparison was given, look at the laws passed that discriminate against the various groups involved.

 Ketara wrote:

The thing about comparing Nazis to people, is that you're trying to tar by association. The Nazis have gone down as the most morally corrupt regime and philosophy in existence, and by linking them to anything, the goal is to denigrate whatever it is you're linking them to.

Remember you said that.

So next time someone criticises Israel remember you own words and opposed those who would label them as anti-Semites, because that stick is wielded every time.
The label is effective because of the way the Holocaust is remembered.

You owe it to yourself to be consistent.

 Ketara wrote:

But despite all of those current days examples, and every historical example of ethnic oppression you could have potentially compared them to, you specifically picked the Nazis to compare them to. Why?

Actually Rule #1, edited by motyak I prefer to compare Israel to apartheid. It's more accurate and legal under EU law.

 Ketara wrote:

Because you wanted to link them with the most evil people that you could conceive of.

You mean the Soviet Union under Stalin. Wow, and I hadn't actually mentioned them. Also the analogy wouldnt fit.

 Ketara wrote:

That's wonderful. You been to Burma lately? China? Russia? Nigeria? Afghanistan? Zimbabwe? Azerbaijan? Ivory Coast? Syria? Ukraine? Iraq? Malawi? Saudi Arabia? Or any of the literally dozens of places where far greater numbers of people are suffering discrimination, poverty and destruction daily?

No I havent been there, but when they commit atrocities they dont get the US making excuses and vetoing UN resolutions.
The culprits dont try and vaunt themselves as the only democracy and peace loving nation in the region either.

 Ketara wrote:


I'll say it once more, comparing Israel to the Nazi's because they engage in minor* discrimination and oppression is pure exaggeration.

It would be worth a look at the timeline up until 1940, stopping there. But then the process of how Israel is dealing with the Palestinians still has some distance to run, and will only likely get worse.
It's not so much if the Palestinians will be removed from the land but when and by what method.

Rule #1, edited by motyak Focusing historical study on 1933-40 and preferring the more accurate, and legal, example of comparing Israel to apartheid era South Africa.

Rule #1, edited by motyak

Less of the snark guys, keep it calm and polite

EDIT:- I've chosen to remove most of my post because this is going nowhere fast. As an intelligent native English speaker, I literally cannot understand what Orlanth is talking about. I'm happy to discuss the point further with anyone else who cares to do so, but I think my exchange with Orlanth here is done.