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....It does? Because all I'm seeing is that Imperial interstellar communications are slow and unreliable, and the highly distributed, non-monolithic nature of the Imperium means that in order to establish a full agreement requires a lot of work to actually get every single individual necessary involved.

Even if it's all handled on Mars proper, there's still the travel times involved.

Oh, and it nicely disproves your point that the AdMech execute anybody that does innovate.

 Bobthehero wrote:
A healthy dose of SM's dropping in in well, drop-pods would've done this movie a great deal of good.

Who are you and what did you do the real Bobthehero?

Hey, guardsmen can't survive the drop pod fall, you won't see me argue that. Anyone read the fan fic where the Imperium shows up on Pandora, while we're on it?

Regarding Avatar -
I found the most illogical part to be - using an orbital shuttle as a low altitude bomber. Sure, they couldn't use it as an orbital bomber because the bombs would burn up and probably detonate in the atmosphere BUT they could have used it as a high altitude bomber, high enough so the natives and animals couldn't breathe. Problem solved.

Regarding Shot traps -
The Terminator suit is badly designed and would catch/ deflect incoming fire into the weakspot between the helmet and the rest of the armour. It probably wouldn't hurt the marine unless the shots were high explosive or shattered into shrapnel but it would most likely lead to damage of internal components.
Imo, Termie armour should have no helmet and instead be a solid carapace at the front, to remove the massive weakspot.
You could easily place cameras on the suit in armoured recesses so the marine inside could see, hell you could probably set up a panoramic view too.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Regarding Avatar -
The Terminator suit is badly designed and would catch/ deflect incoming fire into the weakspot between the helmet and the rest of the armour. It probably wouldn't hurt the marine unless the shots were high explosive or shattered into shrapnel but it would most likely lead to damage of internal components.
Imo, Termie armour should have no helmet and instead be a solid carapace at the front, to remove the massive weakspot.
You could easily place cameras on the suit in armoured recesses so the marine inside could see, hell you could probably set up a panoramic view too.

PLEASE illustrate where you can see a shell-trap in Terminator armour.

I can't see any. The helmet-housing leaves nearly no room for anything else but the helmet.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Regarding Avatar -
The Terminator suit is badly designed and would catch/ deflect incoming fire into the weakspot between the helmet and the rest of the armour. It probably wouldn't hurt the marine unless the shots were high explosive or shattered into shrapnel but it would most likely lead to damage of internal components.
Imo, Termie armour should have no helmet and instead be a solid carapace at the front, to remove the massive weakspot.
You could easily place cameras on the suit in armoured recesses so the marine inside could see, hell you could probably set up a panoramic view too.

PLEASE illustrate where you can see a shell-trap in Terminator armour.

I can't see any. The helmet-housing leaves nearly no room for anything else but the helmet.

Well I guess Otto Weston meant the semi-open rectangular, eh, thingie, behind the helmet. An opening like that can potentially allow small ballistic shots inside the unenclosed compartment and, if the compartment is directly connected to the internal components, can cause devastating damage to the suit.

Personally I like to think of it as the side of a cooling fan that sucks in air to maintain the armor's internal temperature. But if that is the case, it is a really large design flaw. Considering how large and how exposed the entrance is, it could be the cause of a miniscule Death Star. And if the opening is not connected to the interior of the armor, why isn't it sealed up? I can't think of for what purpose the original designer (by whom I mean the artist who designed the current TDA) was thinking about when he/she decided to place an open box behind the helmet.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Regarding Avatar -
The Terminator suit is badly designed and would catch/ deflect incoming fire into the weakspot between the helmet and the rest of the armour. It probably wouldn't hurt the marine unless the shots were high explosive or shattered into shrapnel but it would most likely lead to damage of internal components.
Imo, Termie armour should have no helmet and instead be a solid carapace at the front, to remove the massive weakspot.
You could easily place cameras on the suit in armoured recesses so the marine inside could see, hell you could probably set up a panoramic view too.

PLEASE illustrate where you can see a shell-trap in Terminator armour.

I can't see any. The helmet-housing leaves nearly no room for anything else but the helmet.

Shells are pretty small. Especially in a universe with lasers and shuriken ammunition. Even bolter shells only need less than an inch of space.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Can someone please illustrate me where the Terminator Armour has an actual shell trap? I can't see any.

The rounded gaps between the helmet housing and the outer layer of armour. And arguably a more serious trap is the gap between the helm and the housing, if the termie had his head hunched low, like the one in the pic. Shot goes through gap, ricochets of unyileding adamantioun, straight between unlucky termies shoulder blades...

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Can someone please illustrate me where the Terminator Armour has an actual shell trap? I can't see any.

The rounded gaps between the helmet housing and the outer layer of armour. And arguably a more serious trap is the gap between the helm and the housing, if the termie had his head hunched low, like the one in the pic. Shot goes through gap, ricochets of unyileding adamantioun, straight between unlucky termies shoulder blades...

That's not really a shot trap...

The round has no space to ricoche around, and even if it did, it would just hit the back of the helmet (all the while losing nearly all of it's momentum=no penetration).

Also the space between the helmet mount and outer shell (the place where all the optics/stufflikethat are) isn't a shot trap. There is no weak point there.

Shot Trap

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Can someone please illustrate me where the Terminator Armour has an actual shell trap? I can't see any.

The rounded gaps between the helmet housing and the outer layer of armour. And arguably a more serious trap is the gap between the helm and the housing, if the termie had his head hunched low, like the one in the pic. Shot goes through gap, ricochets of unyileding adamantioun, straight between unlucky termies shoulder blades...

That's not really a shot trap...

The round has no space to ricoche around, and even if it did, it would just hit the back of the helmet (all the while losing nearly all of it's momentum=no penetration).

Also the space between the helmet mount and outer shell (the place where all the optics/stufflikethat are) isn't a shot trap. There is no weak point there.

Shot Trap

"Shot traps are locations on the exterior of an armored vehicle where impacting shells are deflected to a weaker or more vulnerable point in the armor"

Fact is there's 2 holes for bullets to enter clearly visible in the pic, between the outer armour and the neckpiece, and depending on the head position another at the neck, quite visible in the pic also. Maybe its not strictly a shot trap so much as an Achilles heel, but I won't split hairs -my point is it's bad news if a bullet goes in there.

Edit *bad news for the wearer*

 Bobthehero wrote:
Hey, guardsmen can't survive the drop pod fall, you won't see me argue that. Anyone read the fan fic where the Imperium shows up on Pandora, while we're on it?

Please provide us with a link oh Mighty Bob.

https://m.fanfiction.net/s/5747381/1/The-Pandora-Incident

The worst shot trap is actually the flex armor on the back of joints like the leg. Any round entering would strike the armor and either deflect up or down causing massive damage to the Astartes. Especially a round the back of the knee of a terminator as it would penetrate and deflect off the dense armor of the front of the knee. If it deflected up the leg a wounding shot could likely kill an Astartes as it shreds their insides.

Allowing for the hilarious event of seeing a terminator drop like a ton of bricks because of a lucky heavy stubber round to the back of the knee.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Can someone please illustrate me where the Terminator Armour has an actual shell trap? I can't see any.

Only fear I'd have would be that the shell lodges between the armour and the helmet, leaving me unable to turn my head.

Hell, I even looked my Terminator models and didn't see any. Please advice?

http://cdn4.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/SpaceHulkDeathwingCrop.jpg?eaa32f
A round could hit in that little crevice between the helmet and the thing covering the helmet
Why is that cover even there?!?!


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 BrotherGecko wrote:
The worst shot trap is actually the flex armor on the back of joints like the leg. Any round entering would strike the armor and either deflect up or down causing massive damage to the Astartes. Especially a round the back of the knee of a terminator as it would penetrate and deflect off the dense armor of the front of the knee. If it deflected up the leg a wounding shot could likely kill an Astartes as it shreds their insides.

Allowing for the hilarious event of seeing a terminator drop like a ton of bricks because of a lucky heavy stubber round to the back of the knee.

Speaking of hilarious terminator fails, if anyone remembers, in Hyperion's lore (some GK guy) these cultists mess with the warp, and during teleport most of Hyperion's battle brothers in terminator armor end up in rocks, or over massive pits. I do agree that that massive hole behind the knee could become an issue. But i'm guessing the flex armor is made of an "adamantium mesh that is 4000x stronger than normal adamantium but as light as a lasgun" Most 40k units have large issues.

Haha the Grey Knight Terminator's psychic hood looks like it was designed to catch rounds and deflect them into the neck.

Some of the armor designs I've seen for Astartes has what looks like plates that slide up and down closing around the flex armor to reduce vulnerability. I believe its MK8 armor.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
The worst shot trap is actually the flex armor on the back of joints like the leg. Any round entering would strike the armor and either deflect up or down causing massive damage to the Astartes. Especially a round the back of the knee of a terminator as it would penetrate and deflect off the dense armor of the front of the knee. If it deflected up the leg a wounding shot could likely kill an Astartes as it shreds their insides.

Allowing for the hilarious event of seeing a terminator drop like a ton of bricks because of a lucky heavy stubber round to the back of the knee.

The "soft armor" of power armor is still made of metal fiber bundles that act as synthetic muscles. A stubber would be highly unlikely to ever penetrate. Plus the redundant organs and instant scar tissue would prevent any mortally wounding shot save severing the brainstem

Astartes die plenty often from blood loss and internal trauma. Hence the use of blunt force weaponry so favored by Astartes. A .5in slug bouncing around your reinforced rib cage would kill a marine super dead. They are still flesh and blood and only have inhance healing abilities not super natural healing abilities.

That flex armor could easily be penetrated as it definitely does not have the same durability as the plates. Suggesting a heavy stubber couldn't penetrate it is suggesting it couldn't kill an Astartes. Which fluff would disagree with that as power armor can an does get penetrated by solid slugs and bolt rounds in numerous occasions.

Everything about SM is so sci-fi as to be supernatural to us. Strength, toughness, speed...

Roight roight but there is plenty of evidence on Astartes not having super natural healing abilities. Nothing they do is too far from possibility. Except probably the eating flesh and going on a DNA vision quest.

A bolt round to the chest kills a marine. Cutting them in half kills them. Blunt force trauma to the chest kills them. Their bodies can't stop massive trauma.

Either way it has little to do with the obvious shot trap that is the joints on their armor.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Astartes die plenty often from blood loss and internal trauma. Hence the use of blunt force weaponry so favored by Astartes. A .5in slug bouncing around your reinforced rib cage would kill a marine super dead. They are still flesh and blood and only have inhance healing abilities not super natural healing abilities.

That flex armor could easily be penetrated as it definitely does not have the same durability as the plates. Suggesting a heavy stubber couldn't penetrate it is suggesting it couldn't kill an Astartes. Which fluff would disagree with that as power armor can an does get penetrated by solid slugs and bolt rounds in numerous occasions.

Yeah, they die to blood loss and internal trauma when riddled with .75 caliber supersonic explosive shells the size of ammunition loaded in an anti-aircraft cannon that's capable of penning IFV's.

And no, heavy stubbers can't kill Astartes unless the Astartes simply stands out in the open and exposes his neck. Meanwhile they survive numerous point-blank frag grenades going off in their face without a scratch to show for it, 20mm cannons, artillery shells likely greater then a howitzer, railguns firing magical discs that shear through molecular bonds, or even weaponry that breaks apart atomic bonds.

Plus Astartes can easily survive things such as bisection and/or having most of the organs in their chest cavity vaporized so long as they receive medical attention from an apothecary or somebody else with the same level of medical knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Roight roight but there is plenty of evidence on Astartes not having super natural healing abilities. Nothing they do is too far from possibility. Except probably the eating flesh and going on a DNA vision quest.

A bolt round to the chest kills a marine. Cutting them in half kills them. Blunt force trauma to the chest kills them. Their bodies can't stop massive trauma.

Either way it has little to do with the obvious shot trap that is the joints on their armor.

lol

Astartes at times can accelerate while running with such speed that they break the sound barrier, they defy all knowledge known on the human brain, they can and HAVE survived being cut in half AND have the organs in their chest vaporized from a power weapon, survive being shot multiple times with a bolter, get run over by a land raider and walk it off, rip apart tank armor with their bare hands, assimilate memories by eating somebody's finger, generate instant scar tissue that stops all bleeding unless disturbed by further injury, or even continue to engage in a conversation while their body is clinically dead.

Space Marines are far from anything reasonably possible and even break physics in some cases. They're as normal as the X-Men and wouldn't be that out of place in street-level Marvel.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Astartes die plenty often from blood loss and internal trauma. Hence the use of blunt force weaponry so favored by Astartes. A .5in slug bouncing around your reinforced rib cage would kill a marine super dead. They are still flesh and blood and only have inhance healing abilities not super natural healing abilities.

That flex armor could easily be penetrated as it definitely does not have the same durability as the plates. Suggesting a heavy stubber couldn't penetrate it is suggesting it couldn't kill an Astartes. Which fluff would disagree with that as power armor can an does get penetrated by solid slugs and bolt rounds in numerous occasions.

Yeah, they die to blood loss and internal trauma when riddled with .75 caliber supersonic explosive shells the size of ammunition loaded in an anti-aircraft cannon that's capable of penning IFV's.

And no, heavy stubbers can't kill Astartes unless the Astartes simply stands out in the open and exposes his neck. Meanwhile they survive numerous point-blank frag grenades going off in their face without a scratch to show for it, 20mm cannons, artillery shells likely greater then a howitzer, railguns firing magical discs that shear through molecular bonds, or even weaponry that breaks apart atomic bonds.

Plus Astartes can easily survive things such as bisection and/or having most of the organs in their chest cavity vaporized so long as they receive medical attention from an apothecary or somebody else with the same level of medical knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Roight roight but there is plenty of evidence on Astartes not having super natural healing abilities. Nothing they do is too far from possibility. Except probably the eating flesh and going on a DNA vision quest.

A bolt round to the chest kills a marine. Cutting them in half kills them. Blunt force trauma to the chest kills them. Their bodies can't stop massive trauma.

Either way it has little to do with the obvious shot trap that is the joints on their armor.

lol

Astartes at times can accelerate while running with such speed that they break the sound barrier, they defy all knowledge known on the human brain, they can and HAVE survived being cut in half AND have the organs in their chest vaporized from a power weapon, survive being shot multiple times with a bolter, get run over by a land raider and walk it off, rip apart tank armor with their bare hands, assimilate memories by eating somebody's finger, generate instant scar tissue that stops all bleeding unless disturbed by further injury, or even continue to engage in a conversation while their body is clinically dead.

Space Marines are far from anything reasonably possible and even break physics in some cases. They're as normal as the X-Men and wouldn't be that out of place in street-level Marvel.

C.S Goto is that you?

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Astartes die plenty often from blood loss and internal trauma. Hence the use of blunt force weaponry so favored by Astartes. A .5in slug bouncing around your reinforced rib cage would kill a marine super dead. They are still flesh and blood and only have inhance healing abilities not super natural healing abilities.

That flex armor could easily be penetrated as it definitely does not have the same durability as the plates. Suggesting a heavy stubber couldn't penetrate it is suggesting it couldn't kill an Astartes. Which fluff would disagree with that as power armor can an does get penetrated by solid slugs and bolt rounds in numerous occasions.

Yeah, they die to blood loss and internal trauma when riddled with .75 caliber supersonic explosive shells the size of ammunition loaded in an anti-aircraft cannon that's capable of penning IFV's.

And no, heavy stubbers can't kill Astartes unless the Astartes simply stands out in the open and exposes his neck. Meanwhile they survive numerous point-blank frag grenades going off in their face without a scratch to show for it, 20mm cannons, artillery shells likely greater then a howitzer, railguns firing magical discs that shear through molecular bonds, or even weaponry that breaks apart atomic bonds.

Plus Astartes can easily survive things such as bisection and/or having most of the organs in their chest cavity vaporized so long as they receive medical attention from an apothecary or somebody else with the same level of medical knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Roight roight but there is plenty of evidence on Astartes not having super natural healing abilities. Nothing they do is too far from possibility. Except probably the eating flesh and going on a DNA vision quest.

A bolt round to the chest kills a marine. Cutting them in half kills them. Blunt force trauma to the chest kills them. Their bodies can't stop massive trauma.

Either way it has little to do with the obvious shot trap that is the joints on their armor.

lol

Astartes at times can accelerate while running with such speed that they break the sound barrier, they defy all knowledge known on the human brain, they can and HAVE survived being cut in half AND have the organs in their chest vaporized from a power weapon, survive being shot multiple times with a bolter, get run over by a land raider and walk it off, rip apart tank armor with their bare hands, assimilate memories by eating somebody's finger, generate instant scar tissue that stops all bleeding unless disturbed by further injury, or even continue to engage in a conversation while their body is clinically dead.

Space Marines are far from anything reasonably possible and even break physics in some cases. They're as normal as the X-Men and wouldn't be that out of place in street-level Marvel.

C.S Goto is that you?

How many 40k books do you own or have read?

Also, do you seriously think that 40k is realistic in any form/is actually believable. Because I'm going to have to laugh again. 40K is just WHF in space with some tweaks over the decades with more grimdark piled on top.

I own a lot of them and can think of zero instances of Astartes running faster then sound or surviving having their chest vaporized. Or like any of your examples.

And still has nothing to do with their armor joints being shot traps.

The speed thing is pretty stupid, I think it's just people taking figurative writing literally (like the million world imperium).

Although marines can live through having giant holes blasted in their chest, it generally isn't for very long. There is a great story in the first tau codex that gives a good example of this, there are marines that are already pretty much dead after having their chests mostly destroyed by plasma rifles, and the apothecary doesn't even try to to save them, he knows there is no hope. He just harvests geneseed.

The story in question also is an interesting look at tau morals, so I'd recommend checking it out anyway.

Imo, all of these stories of Astartes surviving ridiculous wounds or having absurd powers such as running faster than the speed of sound is simply Imperial Propaganda. Wyzilla, you can choose to believe it or not because that's your prerogative but I believe that Astartes are nowhere near as effective as they're made out to be.

Don't get me wrong, they are genetically enhanced super-soldiers but that only goes so far; they're so much rarer than normal humans and yet aren't proportionately better than them. There are officially 1 million space marines and at least 10 trillion humans. Therefore for every marine, you have at least 10,000,000 humans and a Space Marine definitely isn't worth 10 million humans any day of the week.

Space Marines are the poster boys of the Imperium; designed to inspire, encourage and motivate the masses. Once in a while they might be used for a raid because they're acceptable for blitz warfare but in protracted engagements, they're not that effective.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Imo, all of these stories of Astartes surviving ridiculous wounds or having absurd powers such as running faster than the speed of sound is simply Imperial Propaganda. Wyzilla, you can choose to believe it or not because that's your prerogative but I believe that Astartes are nowhere near as effective as they're made out to be.

Don't get me wrong, they are genetically enhanced super-soldiers but that only goes so far; they're so much rarer than normal humans and yet aren't proportionately better than them. There are officially 1 million space marines and at least 10 trillion humans. Therefore for every marine, you have at least 10,000,000 humans and a Space Marine definitely isn't worth 10 million humans any day of the week.

Space Marines are the poster boys of the Imperium; designed to inspire, encourage and motivate the masses. Once in a while they might be used for a raid because they're acceptable for blitz warfare but in protracted engagements, they're not that effective.

Considering they manage to solo Craftworlds, sack Necron Tomb Worlds, hold out against hordes of Orks by themselves, etc, that "propaganda" is most certainly not false.

Especially when the propaganda theory makes no fething sense considering were Imperial citizens to read the books in-universe, they'd all be executed for heresy by being exposed to heretical information of Chaos. Almost all of the Black Library would not even exist in the Imperium as most of its material includes mention of Chaos Astartes, the Horus Heresy, Chaos Daemons, or go on about how the Imperium is doomed to die. That's not propaganda. Actual propaganda is like the old WWII films of smiling Soviet service men bulldozing the Axis lines into Berlin with no mention of the absolutely horrific losses, what the Soviet Soldiers sometimes did that made them look nearly as bad as those they were fighting, etc.

The problem is people don't seem to realize that 40K is just Marvel or DC comics, only in written form instead of comic books. It's pulp fiction like the old novellas published in the same magazines that Lovecraft originally wrote in- such as Weird Tales. Complete with everything ranging from copious amounts of PIS, wavering levels of consistency, and godawfully poor writing quality at times- just like Marvel or DC. Doesn't help either that the Imperium is slowly losing its grimdarkness more and more.

AFAIK Apothecaries aren't really there to perform battlefield surgery, they're there to recover the geneseed of the fallen.They will ofc evaluate the wounded - can he be put back in the fight now, is he off for MedEvac or is it game over? Marines are ridiculously tough but not invulnerable, and anyone wishing to stop one is going to use the heaviest weapon he has, preferably something that can stop light vehicles. Thus a hit bad enough to take a marine out of the fight is likely to require more attention than a few stitches.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Imo, all of these stories of Astartes surviving ridiculous wounds or having absurd powers such as running faster than the speed of sound is simply Imperial Propaganda. Wyzilla, you can choose to believe it or not because that's your prerogative but I believe that Astartes are nowhere near as effective as they're made out to be.

Don't get me wrong, they are genetically enhanced super-soldiers but that only goes so far; they're so much rarer than normal humans and yet aren't proportionately better than them. There are officially 1 million space marines and at least 10 trillion humans. Therefore for every marine, you have at least 10,000,000 humans and a Space Marine definitely isn't worth 10 million humans any day of the week.

Space Marines are the poster boys of the Imperium; designed to inspire, encourage and motivate the masses. Once in a while they might be used for a raid because they're acceptable for blitz warfare but in protracted engagements, they're not that effective.

Considering they manage to solo Craftworlds, sack Necron Tomb Worlds, hold out against hordes of Orks by themselves, etc, that "propaganda" is most certainly not false.

Especially when the propaganda theory makes no fething sense considering were Imperial citizens to read the books in-universe, they'd all be executed for heresy by being exposed to heretical information of Chaos. Almost all of the Black Library would not even exist in the Imperium as most of its material includes mention of Chaos Astartes, the Horus Heresy, Chaos Daemons, or go on about how the Imperium is doomed to die. That's not propaganda. Actual propaganda is like the old WWII films of smiling Soviet service men bulldozing the Axis lines into Berlin with no mention of the absolutely horrific losses, what the Soviet Soldiers sometimes did that made them look nearly as bad as those they were fighting, etc.

The problem is people don't seem to realize that 40K is just Marvel or DC comics, only in written form instead of comic books. It's pulp fiction like the old novellas published in the same magazines that Lovecraft originally wrote in- such as Weird Tales. Complete with everything ranging from copious amounts of PIS, wavering levels of consistency, and godawfully poor writing quality at times- just like Marvel or DC. Doesn't help either that the Imperium is slowly losing its grimdarkness more and more.

Exalted.

There's plot armour, sure, but there's really no propaganda in BL.

With the obvious exception of CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

Propaganda, no, all of it established canon, also no. The codexes are generally regarded as better sources, and certain authors are often regarded as being better sources than others. A lot of the rediculous stuff (like the single squad of tacs slaughtering thousands of DA) are generally ignored. That includes single squads couquoring worlds (the idea of a squad, much less a single marine taking on an entire world or, even worse, craftworld is so stupid as to make me automatically doubt any poster who uses stuff like that in an argument)..

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The codexes are generally regarded as better sources,

By who and why?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
and certain authors are often regarded as being better sources than others.

Aside from backflipping Gotonators that is not a real concern.