"Shell Traps"

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**Co'tor Shas**

By most people who I have talked with on the subject, and because, unlike novels, they are more factually and without the same level of main character bias. It only takes one or two plasma shots to kill marines, but marines can kill entire armies? I call BS on that. Now the marines I personally imagines are more toned down than others, I full admit that (it makes them more interesting to me), but their is a lot of stupid stuff in novels, and your marines seem to be much stronger than average (army biases on both sides I suppose).

**Spetulhu**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
It only takes one or two plasma shots to kill marines, but marines can kill entire armies? I call BS on that.

Well, if marines were actually used where they are strong they could - if not destroy entire armies - at least rout them by taking out the command structure with fast drop pod assaults. Marines are shock troops, not the chaff you're supposed to throw into meat grinders against endless tank regiments and artillery. They don't hold lines, they break lines.

**Co'tor Shas**

Oh, defiantly, but not one squad versus a giant army. Something about the size of a 2k point army, assuming it doesn't have too much AA or anti-heavy armour.

For example, a hunter cadre composed of devilfish equipped fire-warriors could definitely be routed, but a cadre heavy with crisis suits and riptides would probably wipe the marines.

And it brings up a point that should be brought up. People often have them doing the gaurd's job, when they should be doing lighting attacks on enemy positions

**Ashiraya**

So the codices are all solid?

Good to know.

*Checks CSM codex*

A CSM in 437.M35 makes a pact with Khorne and rampages on a fortified industrial world. He, alone, depopulates district after district. The planet is evacuated and declared Perditas.

926.M41: The Chaos warband known as the Purge kills 14 billion imperial citizens in one month.

995:M41: The volcanic forge world of Abheilüng is attacked by the Dark Mechanicus' Warpsmiths. The Warpsmiths attack by unleashing hidden Daemon Engines from below the surface of the planet. The planet is depopulated in (also) a month.

If the CSM are repeatedly able to kill billions over the cause of a month (let that sink in), then they have some serious depopulation skills.

I don't see why SM should be much worse. Very viable for planetary assault, indeed.

**Co'tor Shas**

I said more factual, not fully. They tend to be better. They usually have stupid stuff, usually often less of it.

**Ashiraya**

Who decides what is stupid and not? You?

**Co'tor Shas**

The majority. I will point out (again) that I am basing this on my experience with myself and others. Most people, for example, think a squad of tacs slaughtering thousands of DE is stupid. Most people (I'm sure) would thing that a single being depopulating an entire world is stupid. Fire Warrior has a single FW killing dozens, if not hundreds, of marines, and most people agree that is stupid. Don't you?

**Ashiraya**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
The majority. I will point out (again) that I am basing this on my experience with myself and others. Most people, for example, think a squad of tacs slaughtering thousands of DE is stupid. Most people (I'm sure) would thing that a single being depopulating an entire world is stupid. Fire Warrior has a single FW killing dozens, if not hundreds, of marines, and most people agree that is stupid. Don't you?

You need to provide some kind of citation that the majority agrees with you. An universal poll, or something. I am sure your clique might agree with you, but that has little bearing on what actually matters.

Otherwise, we can just go back the fluff-friendly happy days of the tabletop game.

Spoiler:

**Co'tor Shas**

I'm not talking about my friends or something, I'm talking about anyone I have fluff conversations with. On this forum, or at my FLGS, anywhere. Do you think that a single squad of tacs can slaughter thousands of DE?

**Ashiraya**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm not talking about my friends or something, I'm talking about anyone I have fluff conversations with. On this forum, or at my FLGS, anywhere. Do you think that a single squad of tacs can slaughter thousands of DE?

'Civilians', yes. Warriors, no.

OTOH I am of the belief that a single squad of either SM or DE could slaughter thousands of IG.

**Co'tor Shas**

Yeah, I don't think they were civilians. IIRC it included the lordthingy of the group...thingy (not too well up on my DE names).

I'm sure a squad of space marines could kill that many, just not all at one time. At that point they would have no ammuntion left. They DE (or IG) could just destroy them from range.

**Spetulhu**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
At that point they would have no ammuntion left.

40K isn't just DC and Marvel, it's also action movies. You never ever run out of ammo - unless it's a dramatic moment to do so.

**Co'tor Shas**

Which makes arguing hard fluff so annoying.

I'm the sort of person who wants no know exactly how tall Bara Dur is, so 40k frustates me to no end. That's why I like armies that use less sizable ammunition than bolts. Pulse charge packs have a canonical capacity of fifty shots, so they carry five of those and they are set. I think a las charge pack is something like 60-80.

**Ashiraya**

Am I the only one who has no problem with pocket dimensions in Boltgun magazines?

I mean, that alone is not enough to hurt my immersion.

In the same way any IG player must have some serious suspension of disbelief to abide the Battle Cannon.

**Co'tor Shas**

Perhaps it just me, but I like hard facts. I tend to separate what I view as "story facts" (things created to facilitate a story, or fill plot holes) and "background facts" (things made to expand upon the background, with no extreme bias).

**Ashiraya**

I think the excuse 'it's future tech' is pretty good for just handwaving the numbers.

I mean, what we take for granted today was utterly inconcievable a thousand years ago. Imagine thirty-eight thousand years into the future!

**Co'tor Shas**

I always liked the suggestion that the mags were deep-stiked into the bolters.

**Spetulhu**

Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, what we take for granted today was utterly inconcievable a thousand years ago.

Not to mention the IoM treats technology as magic. The AdMech use religious chants to memorize maintenance manuals. Space Marines are told to venerate the battle gear of the dead and honor their weapons. IG tank crews ask a TechPriest to bless the cooling fan so it stops making that damn grinding noise - and one particular crew even got a SM Chaplain to give a blessing too (old WD short story).

But ofc, some things we do today were well known long before. The Byzantines had flame throwers, enough to keep the Turk at bay for over a century. We just don't know the recipe of their fuel even if we know they had an advanced two-cycle pump. Primitive peoples built huge buildings, things we'd consider not impossible but just too expensive today. And so on.

**BrotherGecko**

And yet still has nothing to do with the topic. Super hero space marines can get their own topic where its relevant.

**Co'tor Shas**

Wait, what was the topic again.

**Bobthehero**

So when the SM do something utterly ridiculous its fine, but when IG characters are able to hurt a SM, its ridiculous propaganda? 'kay...

**Ashiraya**

Bobthehero wrote:
So when the SM do something utterly ridiculous its fine, but when IG characters are able to hurt a SM, its ridiculous propaganda? 'kay...

No, they are on par. We just have different definitions of 'ridiculous'.

**Spetulhu**

Ashiraya wrote:
We just have different definitions of 'ridiculous'.

That's true. The worst SM fanboys were crying foul at a BL quote where a marine had taken several salvoes of fire from a pack of guardsmen and was down on his knees with several smoking holes in his chestplate, then got finished off with a couple hot-shots to the head. Sure, it sucks... But he had already taken more wounds than a normal human would live to witness, and they still had to do a headshot to finish him. That's one tough bastard.

**Wyzilla**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
Propaganda, no, all of it established canon, also no. The codexes are generally regarded as better sources, and certain authors are often regarded as being better sources than others. A lot of the rediculous stuff (like the single squad of tacs slaughtering thousands of DA) are generally ignored. That includes single squads couquoring worlds (the idea of a squad, much less a single marine taking on an entire world or, even worse, craftworld is so stupid as to make me automatically doubt any poster who uses stuff like that in an argument)..

Not single Marines, but when a single Chapter like the Invaders storms a Craftworld and kills it when Craftworlds are supposedly filled to the brim with MEQ's and have a population of several billion.

Hell, the Propaganda angle completely falls apart considering that in Path of the Eldar, the Eldar's own book, Alaitoc is nearly destroyed by the Sons of Orar and Imperial Guardsmen. Or how Eldar get spanked by Astartes in other instances in their own bloody book.

**Co'tor Shas**

The eldar are endless fluff butmonkeys. Even their victories are Pyrrhic.

**Ashiraya**

It's inevitable - the more rare, elite and precious your warriors are, the more it hurts and the more noticeable it is when you get rekt.

Because IG can afford to lose a few billion guardsmen just like that. The Eldar can't. And both die all the same when shot by artillery. And they die all the same in the tabletop. Who gives a gak about consistency and internal logic as long as the IG players can get epic amounts of kills with proportionately tiny armies too????

Some like that type of grimdark 'everything dies to mah melta whether you are a grot or a DP' but I don't. I think it's ridiculous, and the wrong type of grimdark.

But each to their own.

**Bobthehero**

Oh booo ooooh give me a break, IG players have to field far more troops and whatnot compared to other armies. And I am not asking for meltas to kill DP, merely that they kill normal infantry, cuz you know, ITS A fething ANTITANK WEAPON feth.

And I think its far more grimdark that the super soldier that takes years and blah blah blah die like a nobody because some idiot flung an artillery shell over him. And its not likt IG aren't dieing either

And hey, the TT is a lot more consistent than any source or fluff, since its all over the place, the only reason you dismiss it is because it doesn't follow your ''yay my super McCool dudes McCool can kill billions of people weeeeeee, we're super, we have no weakness, we're the best, weeeeeeeee, IG sucks, feth you IG players'' Oh yeah, very grimdark, very much so, uh uh.

**Ashiraya**

Bobthehero wrote:
Oh booo ooooh give me a break, IG players have to field far more troops and whatnot compared to other armies. And I am not asking for meltas to kill DP, merely that they kill normal infantry, cuz you know, ITS A fething ANTITANK WEAPON feth.

Yes, because 6 pt Boyz, 6 pt Gaunts/Gants and 3 pt Gretchin are so much more elite?

You gotta have way larger armies of Guardsmen?

And I think its far more grimdark that the super soldier that takes years and blah blah blah die like a nobody because some idiot flung an artillery shell over him. And its not likt IG aren't dieing either

Nah, I think it's far better grimdark to have the meaningful battles be like a clash of demigods that the Imperium throws hapless normal guys into, and fighting any real war outside of petty rebellions and raids is like being ripped up into an insane fiery hurricane.

So you are basically a soldier, and you are going to be thrown into a war that is waaaaaaaaaaaay out of your league, but they throw you in anyway because MANPOWER.

Nice thing to look forward to. Grimdark!

And hey, the TT is a lot more consistent than any source or fluff, since its all over the place

Wounds?

The melee to hit table?

Hell, any to hit table?

Gretchin shrugging off Destroyer weapons? (With a 16% chance no less)

the only reason you dismiss it is because it doesn't follow your ''yay my super McCool dudes McCool can kill billions of people weeeeeee, we're super, we have no weakness, we're the best, weeeeeeeee, IG sucks, feth you IG players'' Oh yeah, very grimdark, very much so, uh uh.

Nuh nuh nuh, don't go there man.

**Bobthehero**

TT is not perfect, its far better than BL

So the IG is not the only army that can do horde, still usually have to buy more units than others.

**Kiss_Chaos**

Apothecaries exist for a reason. Also, I dug up some fluff from a while age (1st or 2nd ed). A marine jumps on a mole mortal shell to protect folks nearby. He is mortally wounded, but he actually dies of Medic euthanasia. Another Marine gave blood transfusions to four other Marines (using his own blood, so he effectively .donates to Red Chross 4 times).

Marine is hit with a melta. Has to have his arm amputated, and has some other minor damage. Another case, a medic uses a medipack to stabilize a marine with missing leg, and maybe gets the marine back in the fight.

So to me, Marines are tough, but their main strength is tech. Their armor works well but nowhere near perfect. They do take significant casualties, but are much better at surviving unconsciousness, limb loss, etc. This also explains why Chapter's were shuffled in & out of the Badab War

If you want