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The Daemonette apocalypse formation can assault from deep strike.

Its the only thing I know that can.

Blood Angels can assault from deepstrike too and using Drop Pods means they can do this turn 1. Infiltrators can't. Scouts redeployed units can't, however units embarked upon scout redeployed assault transports can (except in the Ork Battle Wagon Formation).

 DeathReaper wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
All the deployment types show the no mans land as 12" from the centre though. So that still results in you having to be more than 24" apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with circle bases you'd have to be perfectly opposite and move perfectly straight and directly towards them and get 24". So is effectively impossible anyway...

Effectively, yes. Now, there is one way that you can absolutely charge on the first turn, when you move first. Roll master of ambush off of the Strategic Warlord Traits. You can infiltrate 3 non-vehicle units. Infiltrate bikes (despite bikes being vehicles in real-world terms, they aren't in game terms) or Cavalry, placing them 18" from the models you want to charge. Now they can moce 12", and have a 6" charge, a perfectly average charge range (especially for cavalry, who are Fleet)

A unit that deploys using Infiltrate cannot charge in their first turn.

My mistake, you're correct.

Kinda seems to defeat the purpose of "Master of Ambush", though doesn't it?

A greater brass scorpion of Khorne moves 12" and charges 3D6 inches. See IA13. That would allow a turn one charge with a bit of luck.

Secondary topic: your opponent can infiltrate (and/or) scout-move within 12" inches of your units. He cannot charge because he infiltrated, but you can charge him and now he's easily close enough to make that possible on TURN 1...

Original topic: outflank does not specifically mention assault at all. What page is the rule about reserves not being able to charge, I can't find it? I see the rule for infiltrate and deep strike, but not general reserves...

 Gunzhard wrote:
Original topic: outflank does not specifically mention assault at all. What page is the rule about reserves not being able to charge, I can't find it? I see the rule for infiltrate and deep strike, but not general reserves...

The "Moving on from Reserve" rule, in the Preparing for Battle section, under Reserves.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Blood Angels can assault from deepstrike too and using Drop Pods means they can do this turn 1. Infiltrators can't. Scouts redeployed units can't, however units embarked upon scout redeployed assault transports can (except in the Ork Battle Wagon Formation).

They can assault from deep strike reserve (a simple but huge difference).

 Kriswall wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
No man's land is greater than 24" as you must be more that 12" from the centre.

To be honest, I'm struggling to find this in the 7th ed book.
6th ed, easy. That was exactly what it said, but I can't find it now.

Instead in the Deployment Zones rule we have: "We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best; this ensures that the armies will start at least 24" apart, which makes first turn charges hard to achieve"

Hard to achieve, but not impossible. Seems you can now deploy exactly 24" away, allowing any unit to charge T1.

Yup. At least 24" = 24" and greater.

If I deploy on the line and you deploy on the line EXACTLY across from each other... I move 12" (jump troops or whatever) and roll 12" for charge. that's enough to get a model in base to base.

I had not noticed this change, and you are correct.

Face-to-face Units across the board rolling double 6 can now charge.

HIWPI:
I always make sure i'm "at the line" + 1mm. If my opponent disagrees, i ask that he place my models where "at the line" + 1mm is. Usually we just agree on that fact and game on

If you REALLY want to perform a T1 charge, you can move tomb spyders up 6" , then spawn scarabs 6" , then move the scarab unit 12" (total of 24"from where they started) , and then charges 2D6, all perfectly legal. up to a 35" charge effectively.

If I'm thinking right, (I haven't looked at sky shield in a while,) marines could deploy a stormraven on a sky shield via ready for takeoff, with up to 6 jump infantry inside, since ravens can carry jumpers. 1st turn, move 6 forward, disembark 12, charge 6 to make 24, or 12 to get up to 30.

niv-mizzet wrote:
If I'm thinking right, (I haven't looked at sky shield in a while,) marines could deploy a stormraven on a sky shield via ready for takeoff, with up to 6 jump infantry inside, since ravens can carry jumpers. 1st turn, move 6 forward, disembark 12, charge 6 to make 24, or 12 to get up to 30.

You disembark in base contact with the hull/access point(s), and then can only move up to 6". So I'm afraid not.
But, since you never used the jump packs, you will have fleet.

 Harial89 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Blood Angels can assault from deepstrike too and using Drop Pods means they can do this turn 1. Infiltrators can't. Scouts redeployed units can't, however units embarked upon scout redeployed assault transports can (except in the Ork Battle Wagon Formation).

They can assault from deep strike reserve (a simple but huge difference).

I'm not sure what either of you are talking about... is this a special formation rule? Cuz it's not in the codex.

Hmm. How odd that you don't get to move with your pack when disembarking. Seems like an arbitrary rule that had the oversight of not remembering some guys in transports might move more than 6, especially when you consider the deep strike disembarkation on the raven, thus showing that they could, in fact, just jump out with packs blazing.


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 Gunzhard wrote:

 Harial89 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Blood Angels can assault from deepstrike too and using Drop Pods means they can do this turn 1. Infiltrators can't. Scouts redeployed units can't, however units embarked upon scout redeployed assault transports can (except in the Ork Battle Wagon Formation).

They can assault from deep strike reserve (a simple but huge difference).

I'm not sure what either of you are talking about... is this a special formation rule? Cuz it's not in the codex.

There's a white dwarf 47 formation called angel's fury something or other that, due to some funky-ness, can get some no scatter drop pods in your face and have the occupant(s) assault you on turn 1.

It's not very good until well past tourney point levels though, as the formation takes about a grand to toss in, then you need another assaults detachment to make use of it. Also of note is that the ITC tourneys decided to add that the teleport homers need to be on since the start of the turn, even though 800 points of assault further cut by drop pod costs and then only getting half on turn 1 wasn't exactly game breaking.

harkequin wrote:
If you REALLY want to perform a T1 charge, you can move tomb spyders up 6" , then spawn scarabs 6" , then move the scarab unit 12" (total of 24"from where they started) , and then charges 2D6, all perfectly legal. up to a 35" charge effectively.

I don't think this works as the placed Scarab base has to be both in coherence with the Scarab unit it's being added to AND within 6" of the originating Spyder.

So...

Scenario #1
1. Spyder and Scarabs both deployed on the line.
2. Spyder moves 6" forward.
3. Scarabs move 12" forward.
4. If the two units are within 6" of each other, spawn a base. Base has to be within 6" of the Spyder, so the Scarabs are at most 12" forward.
5. Scarab charge range is 12" + 2D6", or 24" max.

Scenario #2
1. Spyder and Scarabs both deployed on the line.
2. Spyder spawns a Scarab. Place the base over the line, at full 2" coherence. 40mm bases are 1.57 inches, so the unit is now 3.57 inches over the line.
3. Scarabs move 12" forward.
4. Scarab charge range is 3.57" + 12" + 2D6", or 27.57" max.

Obviously. 24" is enough under idealized circumstances. 27.57" is enough under less ideal circumstances.

But...

I don't know how you're getting 35". If you move the Spyder forward, the Scarab unit is still behind, so you can't get the extra 6". If you move the Scarab unit also, then they've already moved and you can't get the extra movement. I think you've forgotten the Scarabs have to start on the line also.

From his post, it seems a lot like you move the Spyder 6" first, and then spawn the Scarab?

I'm guessing there's a "before you move" clause then?

Ed: Sorry, a "you must add to existing Scarab Unit" clause too?

Ie: can you move the spyder 6", spawn a single scarab base 6" away from it (IE this new scarab base is at 12" from the deployment line) and THEN move it? (the scarab base)

 BlackTalos wrote:
From his post, it seems a lot like you move the Spyder 6" first, and then spawn the Scarab?

I'm guessing there's a "before you move" clause then?

Ed: Sorry, a "you must add to existing Scarab Unit" clause too?

Ie: can you move the spyder 6", spawn a single scarab base 6" away from it (IE this new scarab base is at 12" from the deployment line) and THEN move it? (the scarab base)

"Once per friendly Movement phase, each Canoptek Spyder can..."

"To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Canoptek Scarabs that is within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder."

"...this can take the unit beyond its starting size, but must be placed within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder."

So, yeah. Given that the game is just starting, the best you can do is a 27.57" charge range for the Scarabs. A second Spyder can extend that a bit as there is no longer a rule against "daisy chaining" multiple new Scarab bases so long as you can put them within 6" of the generating Spyder. The within 6" of the Spyder requirement severely limits the number of times you can daisy chain (usually a max of 2).

With enough spyders, 35" is perfectly possible, not ideal or effective, but possible.

1. deploy say 3 scarabs in base to base at the 12" line (total difference 0")
2. move all the spyders forward ~6", and spawn scarabs, spawn 1 2"ahead of the foremost scarab, spawn another 2" ahead of that .
Repeat until 6" ahead of the foremost spyder , (total difference 12")
3. move scarabs 12" (total 24)
4 . charge 12 (total 36)

You do need a fair ammount of spyders, at least 5. but it is certainly possible to charge that far, as "all scarabs may move and act normally the turn they are spawned"

EDIT: probably should have specified i meant more than one spyder, not really feasible in the decurion.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
No man's land is greater than 24" as you must be more that 12" from the centre.

To be honest, I'm struggling to find this in the 7th ed book.
6th ed, easy. That was exactly what it said, but I can't find it now.

Instead in the Deployment Zones rule we have: "We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best; this ensures that the armies will start at least 24" apart, which makes first turn charges hard to achieve"

Hard to achieve, but not impossible. Seems you can now deploy exactly 24" away, allowing any unit to charge T1.

That's one of those subtle changes that happens in 7th. In 6th edition, the deployment zones were "more than 24 inches" from each other, so a unit that moved 12" straight ahead was still prohibited from even declaring a charge against a target that was sitting in the opponent's deployment zone, since they would by definition still be more than 12" away.

In 7th edition, the deployment zones are simply 24" apart. So if two units were deployed right at the edge of the deployment zones, straight across from each other, then one of those units could move straight towards the other one 12", then declare a charge, and could make it into base contact if they rolled snake eyes. However, that does requires that the model who declared the charge be exactly perpendicular to the opponent's model - if they don't line up exactly, then they're beyond 24" and so could never successfully charge. If your opponent wanted to be a real TFG, he could be like "oh, but you weren't EXACTLY 24" apart at the start of your turn, you were 24.0001" apart so the charge can't happen"... but hopefully you're not playing with someone THAT pedantic.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
No man's land is greater than 24" as you must be more that 12" from the centre.

To be honest, I'm struggling to find this in the 7th ed book.
6th ed, easy. That was exactly what it said, but I can't find it now.

Instead in the Deployment Zones rule we have: "We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best; this ensures that the armies will start at least 24" apart, which makes first turn charges hard to achieve"

Hard to achieve, but not impossible. Seems you can now deploy exactly 24" away, allowing any unit to charge T1.

That's one of those subtle changes that happens in 7th. In 6th edition, the deployment zones were "more than 24 inches" from each other, so a unit that moved 12" straight ahead was still prohibited from even declaring a charge against a target that was sitting in the opponent's deployment zone, since they would by definition still be more than 12" away.

In 7th edition, the deployment zones are simply 24" apart. So if two units were deployed right at the edge of the deployment zones, straight across from each other, then one of those units could move straight towards the other one 12", then declare a charge, and could make it into base contact if they rolled snake eyes. However, that does requires that the model who declared the charge be exactly perpendicular to the opponent's model - if they don't line up exactly, then they're beyond 24" and so could never successfully charge. If your opponent wanted to be a real TFG, he could be like "oh, but you weren't EXACTLY 24" apart at the start of your turn, you were 24.0001" apart so the charge can't happen"... but hopefully you're not playing with someone THAT pedantic.

I think this works in the total opposite way of what you think:

If your opponent wanted to be a real TFG, he could be like "oh, our models were directly perpendicular at the start of the game, and we were both EXACTLY on the line"... but hopefully you're not playing with someone THAT pedantic.

I would not recommend trying to argue "perfect perpendicularity" and trying to get basic jump troops to make Turn 1 charges at an enemy directly opposite on the board. The intent of 24" deployment range is quite clear, even if the rules no longer say "more than"


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 BlackTalos wrote:
HIWPI:
I always make sure i'm "at the line" + 1mm. If my opponent disagrees, i ask that he place my models where "at the line" + 1mm is. Usually we just agree on that fact and game on

Also this. make sure your models are .001" behind your line and you should be fine

harkequin wrote:
With enough spyders, 35" is perfectly possible, not ideal or effective, but possible.

1. deploy say 3 scarabs in base to base at the 12" line (total difference 0")
2. move all the spyders forward ~6", and spawn scarabs, spawn 1 2"ahead of the foremost scarab, spawn another 2" ahead of that .
Repeat until 6" ahead of the foremost spyder , (total difference 12")
3. move scarabs 12" (total 24)
4 . charge 12 (total 36)

You do need a fair ammount of spyders, at least 5. but it is certainly possible to charge that far, as "all scarabs may move and act normally the turn they are spawned"

EDIT: probably should have specified i meant more than one spyder, not really feasible in the decurion.

Ah! Yes, I see what you mean now. You're sort of leap frogging the Spyders forward to spawn a chain of Scarabs. I think that in practice you'd have trouble actually placing the scarabs within 6" of the spyder. The two spyders on each side of the swarm should have no problem. The next spyders out are at least ~4.3 inches away to begin with (1" between swarm and first spyder, first spyder's 60mm base, 1" between first spyder and second spyder).

Transport vehicle with front access ramp 6" move

Fast unit 12" move

Assault 2xD6

The challenge is looking through all the books for a fast moving unit that can take an assault vehicle as a dedicated transport. The stormraven would not work as you cant start the game embarked inside a vehicle that is not your dedicated transport

Not that you would do it, but Tau drones might be able to make the charge in the first player turn. If they start on a vehicle

9unit9 wrote:
The stormraven would not work as you cant start the game embarked inside a vehicle that is not your dedicated transport.

Yes you can. You cannot start in a Dedicated Transport that doesn't belong to you, but you can start in a non-dedicated transport. It's how you get Terminators downfield Turn 1.

 Happyjew wrote:

9unit9 wrote:
The stormraven would not work as you cant start the game embarked inside a vehicle that is not your dedicated transport.

Yes you can. You cannot start in a Dedicated Transport that doesn't belong to you, but you can start in a non-dedicated transport. It's how you get Terminators downfield Turn 1.

Must have miss read that (what page is it on in the rule book?).

Easy then, assault marines inside a Spartan (it has a capacity of 25), unless I have been an idiot and there is some rule preventing jump packs from embarking inside it.

Or you could always go mad (if money is no object).... Thunderhawk on Skyshield, with bikes in it... Would definitely be fun (well for you anyway)

Unless a transport specifies otherwise (like the Stormraven, or Drop Pod), only non Jump/non-Jetpack Infantry can embark.

9unit9 wrote:
Transport vehicle with front access ramp 6" move

Fast unit 12" move

Assault 2xD6

The challenge is looking through all the books for a fast moving unit that can take an assault vehicle as a dedicated transport. The stormraven would not work as you cant start the game embarked inside a vehicle that is not your dedicated transport

Not that you would do it, but Tau drones might be able to make the charge in the first player turn. If they start on a vehicle

Tau Drones are Jet Pack Infantry... not Jump Pack. They move 6" in the Movement phase and assault 2D6". Their advantage is the option to make a 2D6" Thrust move in the Assault phase instead of assaulting (among other advantages).

the Thunderhawk rules (From Escalation) does specify bikes and Jump

niv-mizzet wrote:
Hmm. How odd that you don't get to move with your pack when disembarking. Seems like an arbitrary rule that had the oversight of not remembering some guys in transports might move more than 6, especially when you consider the deep strike disembarkation on the raven, thus showing that they could, in fact, just jump out with packs blazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Harial89 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Blood Angels can assault from deepstrike too and using Drop Pods means they can do this turn 1. Infiltrators can't. Scouts redeployed units can't, however units embarked upon scout redeployed assault transports can (except in the Ork Battle Wagon Formation).

They can assault from deep strike reserve (a simple but huge difference).

I'm not sure what either of you are talking about... is this a special formation rule? Cuz it's not in the codex.

There's a white dwarf 47 formation called angel's fury something or other that, due to some funky-ness, can get some no scatter drop pods in your face and have the occupant(s) assault you on turn 1.

It's not very good until well past tourney point levels though, as the formation takes about a grand to toss in, then you need another assaults detachment to make use of it. Also of note is that the ITC tourneys decided to add that the teleport homers need to be on since the start of the turn, even though 800 points of assault further cut by drop pod costs and then only getting half on turn 1 wasn't exactly game breaking.

Random rules changes aside as it is a formation you can go unbound and retain the command benefit which means at 1850 you can fit in 3 tac squads with flamer & heavy flamer, the 3 storm ravens and 4 Furiosos with melta&HF in pods that all arrive turn 1. The alphastrike of 7 Heavy flamers, 3 flamers, 7 metlas (3 twin linked), 3 twl'd Assault Cannons, 9 Storm strike missiles, depending on choices either 26 or 56 boltgun rounds and then 4 S10 Ap2 Dreads plowing into combat is pretty devastating. Not game breaking but will cause plenty of armies a real problem. It's a decent list 8 out of 9 games.

With the exception of disembarking from a non-assault vehicle, I honestly don't mind assault not being prevented in those situations the OP is talking about.

They can all be countered through proper deployment and positioning. Many of them have decent enough drawbacks to make somewhat unreliable (scattering or rolling for reserves and table edges).

With units vunerable to suprise assaults, avoid board edges (outflankers), los blocking terrain (infiltrators), deploying across the board from scouts. For deepstrike bubblewrap or leave no room them to land safely (castling).

GW doesn't need to coddle us against an underpowered part of the game anyway.

harkequin wrote:
With enough spyders, 35" is perfectly possible, not ideal or effective, but possible.

1. deploy say 3 scarabs in base to base at the 12" line (total difference 0")
2. move all the spyders forward ~6", and spawn scarabs, spawn 1 2"ahead of the foremost scarab, spawn another 2" ahead of that .
Repeat until 6" ahead of the foremost spyder , (total difference 12")
3. move scarabs 12" (total 24)
4 . charge 12 (total 36)

You do need a fair ammount of spyders, at least 5. but it is certainly possible to charge that far, as "all scarabs may move and act normally the turn they are spawned"

EDIT: probably should have specified i meant more than one spyder, not really feasible in the decurion.

Oh god, they didn't add the prevision that the Scarab has to be in coherence with a non-spawned Scarab. The return of the Turn 1 Scarab Chain Charge is nigh!

The Wolfpack Flanking Force for SW allows for outflank and assault from reserves. I believe it's the only thing left in the game that can do this.