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Hi Folks,

Previous incarnations of the rules prohibited assault under certain conditions, like the first player turn of the game, or arriving from reserve. I haven't been able to find these broad restrictions in my searchings of the 7th edition rules, so I'm wondering if I'm missing something?

I found that Deep Strike, Scout Moves, and Infiltration disallow assault on the turn they arrive by DS or on the first game turn for Scout / Infiltration.

I noticed that Outflank DID NOT have a limitation on assault upon arrival, nor was I able to find something for general reserves arrival. Have I missed something?

Thanks!

See "Moving on from Reserve"
That restriction will extend to Outflank.

Also Disembarking with prevent an assault, as will shooting certain weapons (Heavy, Rapid Fire etc).

Yes, you can charge on the first turn now, though you will often need box cars to make that charge, unless going second.

In no version of the game has charging on player turn 1 had a blanket restriction on it. You can not charge out of reserve in 7th Ed though and that is what prevents you from charging from Outflank.

siege2142 wrote:
Yes, you can charge on the first turn now, though you will often need box cars to make that charge, unless going second.

No, you can't if you're going first, unless you have a unit that can move + charge 25 or more inches. This is because the "no mans land" between deployments is more than 24" apart, not exactly 24".

Bikes, charging at a scouting unit, charging out of an open topped vehicle. Idk if red paint job still does the same thing but it was actually fairly doable for them. Don't just say "no can't happen" because it can and nothing in the rules denies it, it's just exceptionally rare and the only people who might go for it these days is orks and nids.

danny1995 wrote:
Bikes, charging at a scouting unit, charging out of an open topped vehicle. Idk if red paint job still does the same thing but it was actually fairly doable for them. Don't just say "no can't happen" because it can and nothing in the rules denies it, it's just exceptionally rare and the only people who might go for it these days is orks and nids.

Bikes can charge 24 inches, not 25.

Charging a scouting unit, sure. But that's not "often need[ing] box cars to make that charge".

And if RPJ still works the same then you'd be able to get 25 inches... which is what I said.

Because of center of model shenanigans, a bike (not JetBike they have round bases) can theoretically make the charge. But that's a different thing, and I'mjust making the point because it's iimportant to note that it is legal to declare a charge first turn, just so that we're all aware when the few things that would allow that come up that it could occur.

rigeld2 wrote:
And if RPJ still works the same then you'd be able to get 25 inches.

Its been changed sadly, it only applies to Flat Out moves (which obviously won't help with a charge).

There is still that Warlord Trait (Master of Vanguard?) that would allow a 25" charge.

danny1995 wrote:
Because of center of model shenanigans, a bike (not JetBike they have round bases) can theoretically make the charge. But that's a different thing, and I'mjust making the point because it's iimportant to note that it is legal to declare a charge first turn, just so that we're all aware when the few things that would allow that come up that it could occur.

Then say that as opposed to trying to showhorn other things that just don't work.

danny1995 wrote:
Because of center of model shenanigans, a bike (not JetBike they have round bases) can theoretically make the charge. But that's a different thing, and I'mjust making the point because it's iimportant to note that it is legal to declare a charge first turn, just so that we're all aware when the few things that would allow that come up that it could occur.

What center of model shenanigans for bikes? BRB - Movement Distance section "if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started". For bikes, just replace the 6" with 12". In other words, you can't start a bike facing north, move it due east and the rotate it 90 degrees to the model's right to get a little extra range. The rules prohibit that. The only way you can pivot a model is if the model chooses not to move.

For vehicles... under the Vehicles & Measuring Distance section "As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule for measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull...". Vehicles ARE allowed to pivot as many times as they want, and this pivot doesn't count as movement, but per the above, and replacing base with hull, we get... "if a VEHICLE does move, no part of its HULL can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started". Movement is a distance, and we measure distances from hulls, so... My reading is that rotating a rectangular model to get extra range is prohibited by the rules... for based models or unbased vehicles.

 Kriswall wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
Because of center of model shenanigans, a bike (not JetBike they have round bases) can theoretically make the charge. But that's a different thing, and I'mjust making the point because it's iimportant to note that it is legal to declare a charge first turn, just so that we're all aware when the few things that would allow that come up that it could occur.

What center of model shenanigans for bikes? BRB - Movement Distance section "if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started". For bikes, just replace the 6" with 12". In other words, you can't start a bike facing north, move it due east and the rotate it 90 degrees to the model's right to get a little extra range. The rules prohibit that. The only way you can pivot a model is if the model chooses not to move.

For vehicles... under the Vehicles & Measuring Distance section "As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule for measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull...". Vehicles ARE allowed to pivot as many times as they want, and this pivot doesn't count as movement, but per the above, and replacing base with hull, we get... "if a VEHICLE does move, no part of its HULL can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started". Movement is a distance, and we measure distances from hulls, so... My reading is that rotating a rectangular model to get extra range is prohibited by the rules... for based models or unbased vehicles.

I'd re-write all of my views and arguments, but could you possibly read this post for support? :
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/621225.page#7320635

You can start vehicle sideways and "gain" movement. You'd "loose" it if you went sideways again, but in the grand scheme of things, this won't alter your game much and won't help 1st Turn charges (Original Post)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
"As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule for measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull...".

Also, the above is measuring distances. Between model X and the Vehicle. It will not apply for the movement of the vehicle itself. See previous post for that.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
Because of center of model shenanigans, a bike (not JetBike they have round bases) can theoretically make the charge. But that's a different thing, and I'mjust making the point because it's iimportant to note that it is legal to declare a charge first turn, just so that we're all aware when the few things that would allow that come up that it could occur.

What center of model shenanigans for bikes? BRB - Movement Distance section "if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started". For bikes, just replace the 6" with 12". In other words, you can't start a bike facing north, move it due east and the rotate it 90 degrees to the model's right to get a little extra range. The rules prohibit that. The only way you can pivot a model is if the model chooses not to move.

For vehicles... under the Vehicles & Measuring Distance section "As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule for measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull...". Vehicles ARE allowed to pivot as many times as they want, and this pivot doesn't count as movement, but per the above, and replacing base with hull, we get... "if a VEHICLE does move, no part of its HULL can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started". Movement is a distance, and we measure distances from hulls, so... My reading is that rotating a rectangular model to get extra range is prohibited by the rules... for based models or unbased vehicles.

I'd re-write all of my views and arguments, but could you possibly read this post for support? :
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/621225.page#7320635

You can start vehicle sideways and "gain" movement. You'd "loose" it if you went sideways again, but in the grand scheme of things, this won't alter your game much and won't help 1st Turn charges (Original Post)

Fair enough. I suppose it depends on what you consider the starting position to be. Is it before or after the initial (doesn't count as movement) pivot?

In either case, Bikes (and anything else on a cavalry/oval/other non-circular base) DEFINITELY can't use a pivot to gain movement distance.

rigeld2 wrote:

siege2142 wrote:
Yes, you can charge on the first turn now, though you will often need box cars to make that charge, unless going second.

No, you can't if you're going first, unless you have a unit that can move + charge 25 or more inches. This is because the "no mans land" between deployments is more than 24" apart, not exactly 24".

Yes, you can charge on the first turn.
There is no rule that prohibits you from doing so.

 Kriswall wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
Because of center of model shenanigans, a bike (not JetBike they have round bases) can theoretically make the charge. But that's a different thing, and I'mjust making the point because it's iimportant to note that it is legal to declare a charge first turn, just so that we're all aware when the few things that would allow that come up that it could occur.

What center of model shenanigans for bikes? BRB - Movement Distance section "if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started". For bikes, just replace the 6" with 12". In other words, you can't start a bike facing north, move it due east and the rotate it 90 degrees to the model's right to get a little extra range. The rules prohibit that. The only way you can pivot a model is if the model chooses not to move.

For vehicles... under the Vehicles & Measuring Distance section "As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule for measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull...". Vehicles ARE allowed to pivot as many times as they want, and this pivot doesn't count as movement, but per the above, and replacing base with hull, we get... "if a VEHICLE does move, no part of its HULL can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started". Movement is a distance, and we measure distances from hulls, so... My reading is that rotating a rectangular model to get extra range is prohibited by the rules... for based models or unbased vehicles.

I'd re-write all of my views and arguments, but could you possibly read this post for support? :
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/621225.page#7320635

You can start vehicle sideways and "gain" movement. You'd "loose" it if you went sideways again, but in the grand scheme of things, this won't alter your game much and won't help 1st Turn charges (Original Post)

Fair enough. I suppose it depends on what you consider the starting position to be. Is it before or after the initial (doesn't count as movement) pivot?

In either case, Bikes (and anything else on a cavalry/oval/other non-circular base) DEFINITELY can't use a pivot to gain movement distance.

Agreed, only for Vehicles. And it all comes down to where they were before the movement phase started, and where they are at the end of the phase.
Vehicles have an added restriction ("Travel") that need to be measured. The "value" of that movement will not change whether you count before or after (If you always use the centre point of the vehicle as reference - because pivoting is indeed free)

Kangodo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

siege2142 wrote:
Yes, you can charge on the first turn now, though you will often need box cars to make that charge, unless going second.

No, you can't if you're going first, unless you have a unit that can move + charge 25 or more inches. This is because the "no mans land" between deployments is more than 24" apart, not exactly 24".

Yes, you can charge on the first turn.
There is no rule that prohibits you from doing so.

Yes, you can charge on the first turn.

You won't actually be able to unless you can move + charge 25 inches (which is what I said and people have repeatedly ignored). Rolling boxcars has nothing to do with it (for normal units... since apparently people have to have these caveats).

Or Scouting transports can assault turn 1. The unit inside the transport hasn't scout redeployed unless you can prove it has. This appears to also be the RaI as illustrated by Waaagh Ghazghul's Battle Wagon Formation (that requires an entire special rule to prevent this for working for them).

Thanks everyone, I'd missed that bit under "Moving on from Reserves". While nothing explicitly prohibits a 1st turn charge, typical deployment zones and movement rules generally prevent it, unless your opponent voluntarily moves into range with Infiltration, or Scout moves. As a general rule, anyhow.

Further, entering from reserves, of any kind, still prevents charging on that turn.

I had a feeling I was missing something. Thanks again!

I believe there is now a Commando ork character, jump infantry, that *can* assault from Reserve. I don't know this character's name, nor do I have the Formation he's in, but my ork buddy remarked on it; an overpriced, ineffective, 'just for laughs' kind of unit.

I was surprised as GW had eliminated all 'can assault from DS' units when these books were reissued:

a. previous SM codex's "Heroic Intervention"
b. previous 'Nid codex's "Ymgarl genestealers" out of the game.
c. previous SW codex's scouts

Anybody know that ork's name?

There is Boss Zagstruk, a Stromboy Nob who used to be able to assault from DS, but he cannot in the current Codex. The Kommando character (Boss Snikrot) doesn't allow it either.

there are other ways to assault on turn one that don't require moving 25":

Does the magna grappler still exist, and does it still drag a vehicle towrads the firer? there was also the pavane of slaanesh thing that let you move enemy models...

the one that's a definite is if you wreck an open-topped vehicle and the enemy disembarks 3" towards you. if you'd moved 12" towards them, you can assault them.

and the whole "must be 25" as the no mans land is more than 24"" thing isn't right - no mans land is 24", if you both deploy as far forward as possible, it's a 24" move-charge. with a boarding plank, 'ere we go and enough trukks, you can pull it off relatively easily, only needing to roll a 10 on 2 dice, rerolling one of them, on 6-7 different units.

No man's land is greater than 24" as you must be more that 12" from the centre. So to assault turn 1 you have to either deepstrike or have some way of moving the units involved a total of 25" or more.

Magnagrapple still exists but has a different effect now so does not help assault turn 1.

Supporting fire

 FlingitNow wrote:
No man's land is greater than 24" as you must be more that 12" from the centre.

To be honest, I'm struggling to find this in the 7th ed book.
6th ed, easy. That was exactly what it said, but I can't find it now.

Instead in the Deployment Zones rule we have: "We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best; this ensures that the armies will start at least 24" apart, which makes first turn charges hard to achieve"

Hard to achieve, but not impossible. Seems you can now deploy exactly 24" away, allowing any unit to charge T1.

Eversor deployed in a Landraider?

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
No man's land is greater than 24" as you must be more that 12" from the centre.

To be honest, I'm struggling to find this in the 7th ed book.
6th ed, easy. That was exactly what it said, but I can't find it now.

Instead in the Deployment Zones rule we have: "We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best; this ensures that the armies will start at least 24" apart, which makes first turn charges hard to achieve"

Hard to achieve, but not impossible. Seems you can now deploy exactly 24" away, allowing any unit to charge T1.

Yup. At least 24" = 24" and greater.

If I deploy on the line and you deploy on the line EXACTLY across from each other... I move 12" (jump troops or whatever) and roll 12" for charge. that's enough to get a model in base to base.

Seems to be one of those sneaky changes that have slipped under the radar.
It certainly used to be more than 24" away last edition.

All the deployment types show the no mans land as 12" from the centre though. So that still results in you having to be more than 24" apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with circle bases you'd have to be perfectly opposite and move perfectly straight and directly towards them and get 24". So is effectively impossible anyway...

 FlingitNow wrote:
All the deployment types show the no mans land as 12" from the centre though. So that still results in you having to be more than 24" apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with circle bases you'd have to be perfectly opposite and move perfectly straight and directly towards them and get 24". So is effectively impossible anyway...

Effectively, yes. Now, there is one way that you can absolutely charge on the first turn, when you move first. Roll master of ambush off of the Strategic Warlord Traits. You can infiltrate 3 non-vehicle units. Infiltrate bikes (despite bikes being vehicles in real-world terms, they aren't in game terms) or Cavalry, placing them 18" from the models you want to charge. Now they can moce 12", and have a 6" charge, a perfectly average charge range (especially for cavalry, who are Fleet)

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
All the deployment types show the no mans land as 12" from the centre though. So that still results in you having to be more than 24" apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with circle bases you'd have to be perfectly opposite and move perfectly straight and directly towards them and get 24". So is effectively impossible anyway...

Effectively, yes. Now, there is one way that you can absolutely charge on the first turn, when you move first. Roll master of ambush off of the Strategic Warlord Traits. You can infiltrate 3 non-vehicle units. Infiltrate bikes (despite bikes being vehicles in real-world terms, they aren't in game terms) or Cavalry, placing them 18" from the models you want to charge. Now they can moce 12", and have a 6" charge, a perfectly average charge range (especially for cavalry, who are Fleet)

A unit that deploys using Infiltrate cannot charge in their first turn.