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If we're going to strap an assault cannon to a Rhino, we might as well just take the extra leap and strap a second on there.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/RAZORBACK_ASSAULT_CANNON_TURRET.html

Quickjager wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
Did everyone forget about those Grey Knight close combat guys that have the a storm bolter mounted to their wrists?

We're trying to, yes. If we pretend Mat Ward's fluff doesn't exist, then the revamp of the models won't be based on it either.

...You're aware the models came with Stormbolters orginally? All the way back in 3rd EDITION?

Was still a stupid switch then. They used to be mounted on their halberds back in second. Ward didn't start the death of the Grey Knights' cool factor, but her pretty much finished it.

True on the halberds, but then they would be pretty much Custodes.

Custodes are more hardcore, they have heavy bolters on their spears.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Humvees routinely carry a 40mm grenade launcher or TOW launcher. And no sane person would argue that the Ma Duece is operable and portable by one man, which it would have to be for the storm bolter comparison to be valid. To be a direct equivalence you would have to have an M249 in the turret, which is never done. A M240 is occasionally seen, but not often, and technically that is a two man weapon and if you've ever had to heave one around, you can appreciate why.

BEEEP Wrong!. They are not used in the majority because of the experience in Afghan since they (and M240) are not able to penetrate stuff behind clay walls effectively. Not because they are not heavy enough to be mounted. Same reason why they had Armor Piercing belts for their M2 on occasion - better penetration through light cover.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Custodes are more hardcore, they have heavy bolters on their spears.

What? No they don't.

I'm sure they do.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I'm sure they do.

In the images I can find, they look like normal bolters at best.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

...You're aware the models came with Stormbolters orginally? All the way back in 3rd EDITION?

Was still a stupid switch then. They used to be mounted on their halberds back in second.

THAT was a cheesy retcon worthy of Ward.

When they were first released back in RT the gun was a boltgun which only had a 4" range, owing to the fact that it was strapped to a melee weapon and therefor somewhat lacking in the aiming department, and it could only fire 3 shots in the entire game owing to the fact that you can only bolt (er, unintentional pun) so much to a melee weapon without completely throwing off the balance. Proof that you can have GrimDark[TM] without completely throwing out common sense.

If you're gonna give them a full storm bolter I'd much rather see it strapped to the arm than weighing down their melee weapon.

As for why the Rhino only has a Storm Bolter.. tradition. Back when they made the original Rhino they literally stuck two of the regular marine boltguns on top - possibly they couldn't be arsed to sculpt anything else, when second edition came round they decided to combine the effect into a single storm bolter, then when 3rd edition came round they gave the model a Storm Bolter because.. that's what Rhino's have. I doubt there's ever been a fluffy reason given.

 Keep wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Humvees routinely carry a 40mm grenade launcher or TOW launcher. And no sane person would argue that the Ma Duece is operable and portable by one man, which it would have to be for the storm bolter comparison to be valid. To be a direct equivalence you would have to have an M249 in the turret, which is never done. A M240 is occasionally seen, but not often, and technically that is a two man weapon and if you've ever had to heave one around, you can appreciate why.

BEEEP Wrong!. They are not used in the majority because of the experience in Afghan since they (and M240) are not able to penetrate stuff behind clay walls effectively. Not because they are not heavy enough to be mounted. Same reason why they had Armor Piercing belts for their M2 on occasion - better penetration through light cover.

BRRRTTT READING COMPREHENSION FAILURE!!!! When did I say they weren't heavy enough to be mounted? It's physically possible to mount a M249 in a turret. It's just not done... because of the exact reason you said. Go back and read what I actually said before jumping to conclusions.

q: why do rhinos use storm bolters?

a: because rhinos only cost 35 points.

</thread>

This is the background thread, not the tactics. It is a good question that shows GW has no idea what they're talking about half the time.

Lascannon Razorback should take no room in transport capacity, Assault cannon razorback should also not take much room. Transport capacity really shouldn't be different, especially given how you can only fit 6 marine in a rhino anyway from a size POV.

If rhinos had a bigger gun though, they'd necessarily have to cost more points.

I think the crunch reveals the fluff in this case. Rhinos are simple vehicles meant to move Astartes from point A to point B. The payload is vastly more potent than the transport. They don't have bigger guns because the Armory doesn't want to take time away from maintaining more complex vehicles to devote to upgrading comparatively simple Rhinos.

Also, how do you know how big the power generators for the mounted lascannons or the ammo hoppers for the mounted assault cannon or heavy bolter is? Maybe the Razorback is designed to hold many more shots than a Devastator marine.

Or maybe, in the wise words of Donald P. Bellisario,

"Don't examine this too closely."

Because it's a light machinegun that uses the same ammo as the ground troops, thus allowing it to be reloaded much easier if it ever needs to be used. Ideally, Rhinos won't actually need to use the storm bolter, though.

 Silverthorne wrote:
It's physically possible to mount a M249 in a turret. It's just not done... because of the exact reason you said. Go back and read what I actually said before jumping to conclusions.

You said its never done, which is obviously wrong. It is/was done. And if it wasnt too weak to penetrate cover it would be used more often. As Stormbolters dont suffer this problem they get used, so your analogy is not really fitting.

A vehicle mounted weapon is always more stable then free firing. Even for Marines this will be the case. Besides, it can be remotely operated that way which reduces exposure and keeps the vehicle airtight. Also, it's just how it is.

Because it's a light machinegun

Light is relative

The real question is "Why can we not assault out of a rhino anymore?". Rhinos were lightly armed because they used to at least try to drive into a place to dump their payload of marines. After that, they were able to be fire support. Now, they do good to make it that far, and you can't even assault out of them if they get there. At least CSM get havoc launchers and combibolters to give a bit of a bunch.

I know I already said it, but I feel like a lot of people aren't really grasping. The stormbolter is actually a really nasty gun fluff wise. The normal LMGs of today can mow down infantry (and pulverize light cover) light nobodies business... A stormbolter is that, with every single shell being a freaking miniature rocket. Fluff wise, it's a gun capable of mowing down mass quantities of non-marine infantry with ease and laying down a withering hale of suppressing to allow the Rhino to disgorge it's marine cargo into the heart of a foe's formation.

Yes, crunch wise it's pretty lackluster, but we're talking about fluff in this instance, not crunch. And in that case, the Stormbolter is a damned nasty weapon which is just short of actual heavy weapons (ergo what makes a razorback).

Perhaps it says so in the Codex Astartes, or possibly only the MkIc Deimos Pattern Rhino has a universal mount? 30k Rhinos are able to carry a much wider array of pintle weapons.

You question imperial rhino design? You think you can do better? Clearly, you want something a bit more for your transport...something like a...havok launcher, for example? And a couple of spikes for your power armor?
Welcome, my friend! We've got cookies.

Daniel, that's excellent. Where'd it come from?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Daniel, that's excellent. Where'd it come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Daniel, that's excellent. Where'd it come from?

Pentagon Wars, an HBO movie from '98. It's a great illustration of how the design process can go awry when you start having the "why not just add..." conversation. The rhino always struck me as a most practical vehicle compared to a lot of other 40k tanks (and not surprising, since it's clearly inspired by the M113 and other similar APCs). The fluff described a Storm Bolter as being similar in function and performance to something like an LMG, so it seems perfectly at home as a little pintle-mounted weapon. Being small and sharing ammunition with the embarked squad's weapon are very attractive features - it means you don't significantly increase the rhino's profile, or use up much of it's internal volume. Once you start bolting on heavy weapons, you need to start carrying ammunition (or reactors/power cells), you need to build up supporting structures for it, add a turret, weight, etc. It's odd that this thread has come up, because we DO have a hybrid vehicle in the fluff - the Razorback, which has a big damn gun on top, but can't carry as many troops, and doesn't have a lot of armor. Similar to the Bradley (which, incidentally, has proven itself to be a lot more useful of a vehicle than the impression that the movie gives you).

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, regular tacs can use stormbolters, they just can't do so relentlessly (shhh). It's a two-handed vs. one-handed kind of thing.

Anyways, to the OP, what's wrong with a pintle super-small arm? Pintling will make any gun easier to shoot when it's on a vehicle, and not all vehicle mounted weapons are as large as they can possibly be and still fit on the turret. I mean, why does the humvee have lugs for only a .50 cal machine gun when they could have a pintle 20mm cannon, or pintle 25-pounder?

20mm cannons? oh you mean bolters?

 Pyeatt wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
I thought they use a storm bolter on rhino because storm bolter has an independent ammo box, whereas Razorback is said to have modified its interior for ammo capacity. So basically Rhino makes no sacrfice in cargo capacity for ammo by taking just a single Storm bolter, and it's easy just install a bigger version of infantry bolter than say, an autocannon which would require a relatively larger munition compartment due to its rate of fire.

An Assault Cannon has an ammo can carried seperately by the Terminator using it. No reason they cant strap one up on top of a rhino... just saying

You realize that terminators are usually sent in to Quickly feth up the baddies in things like ships and spess hulks or what nots and generally not stay long enough to have to keep reloading that mini magazines, while a razorback could hang out for a fairly long time without needed reloading. (same with the other variants)

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Daniel, that's excellent. Where'd it come from?

Pentagon Wars, an HBO movie from '98. It's a great illustration of how the design process can go awry when you start having the "why not just add..." conversation. The rhino always struck me as a most practical vehicle compared to a lot of other 40k tanks (and not surprising, since it's clearly inspired by the M113 and other similar APCs). The fluff described a Storm Bolter as being similar in function and performance to something like an LMG, so it seems perfectly at home as a little pintle-mounted weapon. Being small and sharing ammunition with the embarked squad's weapon are very attractive features - it means you don't significantly increase the rhino's profile, or use up much of it's internal volume. Once you start bolting on heavy weapons, you need to start carrying ammunition (or reactors/power cells), you need to build up supporting structures for it, add a turret, weight, etc. It's odd that this thread has come up, because we DO have a hybrid vehicle in the fluff - the Razorback, which has a big damn gun on top, but can't carry as many troops, and doesn't have a lot of armor. Similar to the Bradley (which, incidentally, has proven itself to be a lot more useful of a vehicle than the impression that the movie gives you).

Bradley is a damn fine vehicle.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Daniel, that's excellent. Where'd it come from?

Pentagon Wars, an HBO movie from '98. It's a great illustration of how the design process can go awry when you start having the "why not just add..." conversation. The rhino always struck me as a most practical vehicle compared to a lot of other 40k tanks (and not surprising, since it's clearly inspired by the M113 and other similar APCs). The fluff described a Storm Bolter as being similar in function and performance to something like an LMG, so it seems perfectly at home as a little pintle-mounted weapon. Being small and sharing ammunition with the embarked squad's weapon are very attractive features - it means you don't significantly increase the rhino's profile, or use up much of it's internal volume. Once you start bolting on heavy weapons, you need to start carrying ammunition (or reactors/power cells), you need to build up supporting structures for it, add a turret, weight, etc. It's odd that this thread has come up, because we DO have a hybrid vehicle in the fluff - the Razorback, which has a big damn gun on top, but can't carry as many troops, and doesn't have a lot of armor. Similar to the Bradley (which, incidentally, has proven itself to be a lot more useful of a vehicle than the impression that the movie gives you).

Bradley is a damn fine vehicle.

If you like riding around in bait that dies to a light breeze that can't even transport your full squad, then sure.

Bradley's are fantastic for smacking up impoverished terrorists, but it's gonna fold if it ever is used in an actual war in the likes of WWII. Bloody thing is made of aluminum and gets gutted by RPG's.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, regular tacs can use stormbolters, they just can't do so relentlessly (shhh). It's a two-handed vs. one-handed kind of thing.

I think the better question is why do people use storm bolters compared to combi-bolters? Is the Imperium so backwards they don't remember how to stick two guns together?

 Wyzilla wrote:
I think the better question is why do people use storm bolters compared to combi-bolters? Is the Imperium so backwards they don't remember how to stick two guns together?

Stormbolters are probably more refined given that they are purpose built to fire two different mechanisms at once. I am not sure what this means. Most likely Stormbolters either fire quicker or jam a lot less than the Combi weapons do.