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I'm meaning the pintle mounted ones. What's the point? A marine could easily hold a stormbolter and not be restricted by the pintle mount. A marine could hold two bolters, one in each hand and fire in different directions. IG I understand, they're puny humans, but marines use a bolter as their standard weapon. It would be like IG using twin-linked lasguns on their vehicles, surely the marines can do better? They should have either a heavy weapon like an assault cannon or something different like an "auto-bolter" which would be a bolter with a much superior fire rate to the stormbolter.
It just seems silly having such a comparatively weak weapon as the standard armament, particularly when the main top hatch can be raised allowing the passengers to fire from cover.

So basically, you want a Razorback? Or a Predator? Or any other Space Marine vehicle other than the stock rhino?
The basic Rhino may use a stormbolter, but dishing out damage isn't its job. It's a troop carrier. Bigger weapons is for every other single use of the Rhino chassis, which the Space Marines just love for some reason.
I'm sorry if I sound rude, but have you looked at the other vehicles?

1) from my understanding, only Terminators are capable of using stormbolters; the kick is too great for a regular marine

2) it's a defensive weapon, not offensive. It's meant to keep enemy infantry from assaulting and meltabombing the vehicle, or giving covering fire for disembarking marines or clearing a path for the rhino to charge through. The standard rhino is a "battle taxi", not an assault vehicle.

However, it would be interesting to see a rhino equipped with sponsons carrying heavy bolters or flamers.

 Stormonu wrote:
1) from my understanding, only Terminators are capable of using stormbolters; the kick is too great for a regular marine

2) it's a defensive weapon, not offensive. It's meant to keep enemy infantry from assaulting and meltabombing the vehicle, or giving covering fire for disembarking marines or clearing a path for the rhino to charge through. The standard rhino is a "battle taxi", not an assault vehicle.

However, it would be interesting to see a rhino equipped with sponsons carrying heavy bolters or flamers.

PA marines can use stormbolters just fine.

 Stormonu wrote:
1) from my understanding, only Terminators are capable of using stormbolters; the kick is too great for a regular marine

2) it's a defensive weapon, not offensive. It's meant to keep enemy infantry from assaulting and meltabombing the vehicle, or giving covering fire for disembarking marines or clearing a path for the rhino to charge through. The standard rhino is a "battle taxi", not an assault vehicle.

However, it would be interesting to see a rhino equipped with sponsons carrying heavy bolters or flamers.

1.If I understand correctly, they can use it, but the recoil, total weight, etc just makes it impractical most of the time.

2. Bastard child of a normal Rhino and a Predator? Capacity of a Razorback, made for keeping everyone away from the passengers using 2 sponsons and the pintle mounts? That does sound interesting.

Yes, regular tacs can use stormbolters, they just can't do so relentlessly (shhh). It's a two-handed vs. one-handed kind of thing.

Anyways, to the OP, what's wrong with a pintle super-small arm? Pintling will make any gun easier to shoot when it's on a vehicle, and not all vehicle mounted weapons are as large as they can possibly be and still fit on the turret. I mean, why does the humvee have lugs for only a .50 cal machine gun when they could have a pintle 20mm cannon, or pintle 25-pounder?

One factor could be ammunition space. Storm bolter rounds are small and might even be interchangeable with the squad's own ammunition. So it gives the Rhino a basic ability to shoot back without spending much of its valuable transport space. HB/AC/etc ammunition would take up more interior space, and pretty soon you've got a Razorback with an inferior gun mount.

Keep in mind that Stormbolters aren't actually very "small" weapons. A Stormbolter is essentially an LMG, which is pretty damn big and lethal respectively.

jayko657 wrote:
So basically, you want a Razorback?

Razorbacks are twin linked weapon carriers and the heavy weapon they use is much larger than the infantry version suggesting a much larger calibre, more powerful weapon, something not represented in game mechanics. I'm talking about an infantry sized heavy weapon of single type or a rapid firing version of a bolter.

The basic Rhino may use a stormbolter, but dishing out damage isn't its job.

Exactly, it's prime use is a troop transport, so why limit its defence to the equivalent of two small-arms?


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 Ailaros wrote:
what's wrong with a pintle super-small arm? Pintling will make any gun easier to shoot when it's on a vehicle, and not all vehicle mounted weapons are as large as they can possibly be and still fit on the turret. I mean, why does the humvee have lugs for only a .50 cal machine gun when they could have a pintle 20mm cannon, or pintle 25-pounder?

A space marine doesn't need the advantage of a vehicle mount to shoot accurately while moving but my point was also why bother with a weapon that the average marine on board is already carrying? As for the humvee, the average squad member does not carry a .50 cal weapon so such a weapon on a vehicle provides considerable support firepower, the same cannot be said if the rhino is armed with a basic stormbolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, looking at the replies, mu current thinking is these possibilities.
Stormbolter is heavier version than the type carried by infantry.
Pintle is a safeguard to the weapon being lost overboard.

Appreciate the point about bolters being equivalent of human LMGs or similar, though I go back to my point about redundancy in that bolters are a common weapon - vehicle should take opportunity to provide heavier support.

I think "in real life" the weapons on the back of a razorback would be terrifyingly more powerful than is currently thought of.

Given that the squad inside has a mission to carry out, I don't think they'd be sharing the resources needed to complete the mission with the vehicle weapon. I assume there is enough space in a rhino to carry sufficient ammo for the mission.
I would think that a true scale rhino compared to the figures would be the size of a land raider and a land raider would be the size of a bane blade. That gives plenty of space for ammo for the vehicle weapon.
The original rhinos were all-terrain explorer vehicles. They would have contained large food and medical supplies plus sleeping areas. The current rhino is too small for such a thing as it's only about the size of a modern apc.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Keep in mind that Stormbolters aren't actually very "small" weapons. A Stormbolter is essentially an LMG, which is pretty damn big and lethal respectively.

This is the key part. SB may be 'small arms' by Marine standards, it is still spits out a few hundred self-propelled, mass-reactive shells a minute, each one enough to cripple or kill your basic humanoid. If more firepower is needed, the Marines inside will be carrying heavier weapons, but for its main purpose, the Storm Bolter is still a pretty fearsome weapon.

A more relevant question would be, for a point defence weapon against getting mobbed by infantry, why the heck can the pintle storm bolter not be used to fire Overwatch?!

The stormbolter on the pintle mount has a bigger magazine then using "just a bolter". Additionally it has a higher rate of fire.
For self defence totally adequate.

As it happens the forge world heresy lists allowed a pintle heavy bolter.

The vehicle storm bolters are probably whatever equivalent of heavy barrel and extended magazine that allow for more sustained automatic fire.

Computron wrote:A space marine doesn't need the advantage of a vehicle mount to shoot accurately while moving

Umm, what?

On the one hand, a pintle will still help them. Unless space marines and rhinos are both made of gyroscopes. On the other, a space marine doesn't need the advantage of armor either, given how tough their black carapace is, but that doesn't mean that space marines should run around naked.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, regular tacs can use stormbolters, they just can't do so relentlessly (shhh). It's a two-handed vs. one-handed kind of thing.

Anyways, to the OP, what's wrong with a pintle super-small arm? Pintling will make any gun easier to shoot when it's on a vehicle, and not all vehicle mounted weapons are as large as they can possibly be and still fit on the turret. I mean, why does the humvee have lugs for only a .50 cal machine gun when they could have a pintle 20mm cannon, or pintle 25-pounder?

Humvees routinely carry a 40mm grenade launcher or TOW launcher. And no sane person would argue that the Ma Duece is operable and portable by one man, which it would have to be for the storm bolter comparison to be valid. To be a direct equivalence you would have to have an M249 in the turret, which is never done. A M240 is occasionally seen, but not often, and technically that is a two man weapon and if you've ever had to heave one around, you can appreciate why.

The pintle mount should be heavier, probably a heavy bolter. But it isn't, and that won't ever change, likely. Not that anybody really cares about heavy bolters.

Computron wrote:
I'm meaning the pintle mounted ones. What's the point? A marine could easily hold a stormbolter and not be restricted by the pintle mount. A marine could hold two bolters, one in each hand and fire in different directions. IG I understand, they're puny humans, but marines use a bolter as their standard weapon. It would be like IG using twin-linked lasguns on their vehicles, surely the marines can do better? They should have either a heavy weapon like an assault cannon or something different like an "auto-bolter" which would be a bolter with a much superior fire rate to the stormbolter.
It just seems silly having such a comparatively weak weapon as the standard armament, particularly when the main top hatch can be raised allowing the passengers to fire from cover.

Same reason we have .50 cals on our tanks today. The reason why it isn't a Heavy Bolter or assault cannon is because it would make Razorbacks near pointless. In the fluff, bolters are pretty damn powerful weapons that can tear apart most enemies with ease. Hell, a heavy stubber is a .50 cal in 40k, so you can kind of see the difference.

Did everyone forget about those Grey Knight close combat guys that have the a storm bolter mounted to their wrists?

 Stormonu wrote:
1) from my understanding, only Terminators are capable of using stormbolters; the kick is too great for a regular marine

2) it's a defensive weapon, not offensive. It's meant to keep enemy infantry from assaulting and meltabombing the vehicle, or giving covering fire for disembarking marines or clearing a path for the rhino to charge through. The standard rhino is a "battle taxi", not an assault vehicle.

However, it would be interesting to see a rhino equipped with sponsons carrying heavy bolters or flamers.

Sisters of battle can use storm bolters.

Because in older editions 2 strength 4 ap5 shots was cooler than it is now.

All sergeants, HQ's and sternguards can take Stormbolters. whats all this about it being too much for regular marines?

Silverthorne wrote:Humvees routinely carry a 40mm grenade launcher or TOW launcher.

Yes, but that doesn't address my point. The argument that pintle weapons should be bigger can be countered by the argument that you don't always want the biggest gun possible. As demonstrated by the fact that most humvees come with a 50-cal, not, say, a minuteman missile.

Does the fact that a humvee can have a missile launcher mean the rhino necessarily should?

Silverthorne wrote:And no sane person would argue that the Ma Duece is operable and portable by one man, which it would have to be for the storm bolter comparison to be valid.

A sane person could call an M2 a "super small arm".

And it's not required for a valid comparison. We're talking about guns that are more stable on a truck, not less stable in someone's hands.

Silverthorne wrote: To be a direct equivalence you would have to have an M249 in the turret, which is never done.

But you could fit an SAW in there. In any case, pintling makes any gun better for shooting from a moving vehicle. It doesn't matter if you have a big gun or a small gun, you're going to want to try and brace it on the vehicle if you can.

NauticalKendall wrote:
Did everyone forget about those Grey Knight close combat guys that have the a storm bolter mounted to their wrists?

We're trying to, yes. If we pretend Mat Ward's fluff doesn't exist, then the revamp of the models won't be based on it either.

 Ailaros wrote:

Computron wrote:A space marine doesn't need the advantage of a vehicle mount to shoot accurately while moving

Umm, what?

On the one hand, a pintle will still help them. Unless space marines and rhinos are both made of gyroscopes. On the other, a space marine doesn't need the advantage of armor either, given how tough their black carapace is, but that doesn't mean that space marines should run around naked.

Armour is def for extra protection, my point about the firing accurately while being bounced around over terrain is that they should be able to do this. My take on marines is that they are "movie" marines and can do all sorts of wild and wonderful stuff.

 Ailaros wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
Did everyone forget about those Grey Knight close combat guys that have the a storm bolter mounted to their wrists?

We're trying to, yes. If we pretend Mat Ward's fluff doesn't exist, then the revamp of the models won't be based on it either.

...You're aware the models came with Stormbolters orginally? All the way back in 3rd EDITION?

Maybe they should have heavy stubbers then?

They're probably a bit beefier than the infantry ones but the difference isn't appreciable enough to warrant a differing stat.

It wouldn't be unreasonable for a Rhino to have basically an Assault Cannon on top. IMHO


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or a single Heavy Bolter?

natpri771 wrote:

Computron wrote:
I'm meaning the pintle mounted ones. What's the point? A marine could easily hold a stormbolter and not be restricted by the pintle mount. A marine could hold two bolters, one in each hand and fire in different directions. IG I understand, they're puny humans, but marines use a bolter as their standard weapon. It would be like IG using twin-linked lasguns on their vehicles, surely the marines can do better? They should have either a heavy weapon like an assault cannon or something different like an "auto-bolter" which would be a bolter with a much superior fire rate to the stormbolter.
It just seems silly having such a comparatively weak weapon as the standard armament, particularly when the main top hatch can be raised allowing the passengers to fire from cover.

Same reason we have .50 cals on our tanks today. The reason why it isn't a Heavy Bolter or assault cannon is because it would make Razorbacks near pointless. In the fluff, bolters are pretty damn powerful weapons that can tear apart most enemies with ease. Hell, a heavy stubber is a .50 cal in 40k, so you can kind of see the difference.

I don't see where it would make Razorbacks pointless. The razorback would still have a big, twin-linked turret gun in addition to its pintle gun. At present, all Rhino chassis tanks can take a pintle mounted storm bolter, so just make it that they can have whatever pintle weapons a rhino gets. That way even if you buff the Rhino, they still will always be outgunned by Razorbacks, Predators, etc.

I thought they use a storm bolter on rhino because storm bolter has an independent ammo box, whereas Razorback is said to have modified its interior for ammo capacity. So basically Rhino makes no sacrfice in cargo capacity for ammo by taking just a single Storm bolter, and it's easy just install a bigger version of infantry bolter than say, an autocannon which would require a relatively larger munition compartment due to its rate of fire.

 lcmiracle wrote:
I thought they use a storm bolter on rhino because storm bolter has an independent ammo box, whereas Razorback is said to have modified its interior for ammo capacity. So basically Rhino makes no sacrfice in cargo capacity for ammo by taking just a single Storm bolter, and it's easy just install a bigger version of infantry bolter than say, an autocannon which would require a relatively larger munition compartment due to its rate of fire.

An Assault Cannon has an ammo can carried seperately by the Terminator using it. No reason they cant strap one up on top of a rhino... just saying

 Pyeatt wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
I thought they use a storm bolter on rhino because storm bolter has an independent ammo box, whereas Razorback is said to have modified its interior for ammo capacity. So basically Rhino makes no sacrfice in cargo capacity for ammo by taking just a single Storm bolter, and it's easy just install a bigger version of infantry bolter than say, an autocannon which would require a relatively larger munition compartment due to its rate of fire.

An Assault Cannon has an ammo can carried seperately by the Terminator using it. No reason they cant strap one up on top of a rhino... just saying

Well according to Lexicanum the Assault Cannon has a few drawbacks which I found detrimental in installing it on what essentially is a transport vehicle.

Although it lacks the range of the autocannon and many other heavy weapons, the assault cannon is a fearsome weapon when used in the close range role it was designed for. The weapon is prone to overheating and jams due to its high rate of fire - the number of rounds fired per second are counted in the hundreds.

I mean I get that on TT I may drive the rhino into melee-tempting range, but I'd say in the fluff they'll usually try keep the rhino out of range of enemy heavy weapons. So a short range crowd control weapon is rather useless.
Jamming aside, the barrels of Assault cannon also requires replacement after every engagement.

Due to the high rate of wear on the barrels, the barrels are replaced after every mission. Motor and barrel failure are common problems with the assault cannon, making the weapon prone to jamming during sustained bursts.

So it'd be expensive to use them on some of the most common vehicles in the Chapter.