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I imagine Omegon was an accidental creation, as he and Alpharius make up on Primarch. They aren't two primarchs but two halves of one whole.

I also imagine that the Emperor knew of Omegon, despite he and Alpharius' attempts to mask his existence. I believe the Emperor would have allowed them to maintain the illusion of secrecy, as not to wound their joint pride.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 david choe wrote:


Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?

Perhaps because Omegon was meant to be a double agent inside the Alpha Legion by that point, and you don't usually want people knowing who your spies are. That and during a good portion of the Heresy, they weren't sure who among the loyalists were actually loyal. Vengeful Spirit has Malcador makes a remark that 'It seems the Warriors of the Lion stand with us.' clearly they dont know where the others stand, and I believe both sides of the War were eagerly waiting for the White Scars to chose a side. So like I was saying, when you aren't sure if the Loyalists are Loyal, you don't want to give away things.

That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference.

There is some variance in size, but aren't O and A only slightly larger than an average marine? Abaddon was huge for a marine and likely larger than both of them. I bet there were enough Alpha legion marines roughly their size to get the job done.

After all, we see Arnold Schwarzenegger in dozens of movies and thousands of photos, yet there is active and lively debate over whether he is 5'10" and 6'2". If one of the biggest celebrities of the last thirty years is of generally unknown height, how would people know exactly how tall legendarily secretive primarchs are?

Because the Warmaster (at least when/if he meet Alphy first) and other Primarchs had met Alpharius, or Omegon at some point.

Sure, but with the amount of trickery credited to the twins and their legion, finding a couple other convincing looking marines to play their role isn't far fetched. SIze certainly wouldn't be a limiting factor.

 PhillyT wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 david choe wrote:


Is the OP talking Omegon or 2nd Primarch in the tube? Meaning that E knows about the identity of O. Yes, Emperor finally knows about the existence of Omegon during the Great Crusade (I think), but why... didn't he tell the other loyalist Primach during the Horus Heresy?

Perhaps because Omegon was meant to be a double agent inside the Alpha Legion by that point, and you don't usually want people knowing who your spies are. That and during a good portion of the Heresy, they weren't sure who among the loyalists were actually loyal. Vengeful Spirit has Malcador makes a remark that 'It seems the Warriors of the Lion stand with us.' clearly they dont know where the others stand, and I believe both sides of the War were eagerly waiting for the White Scars to chose a side. So like I was saying, when you aren't sure if the Loyalists are Loyal, you don't want to give away things.

That or Omegon wasn't a spy, but the Emps hoped his sons would be smart enough to notice there are two guys that are more remarkably like Primarchs than all the Marines that are trying to imitate Primarchs. That's the one thing about the Alpha Legion at present that is odd to me, the warriors doing their whole look like Alpharius thing, when there is clearly a size difference.

There is some variance in size, but aren't O and A only slightly larger than an average marine? Abaddon was huge for a marine and likely larger than both of them. I bet there were enough Alpha legion marines roughly their size to get the job done.

After all, we see Arnold Schwarzenegger in dozens of movies and thousands of photos, yet there is active and lively debate over whether he is 5'10" and 6'2". If one of the biggest celebrities of the last thirty years is of generally unknown height, how would people know exactly how tall legendarily secretive primarchs are?

Because the Warmaster (at least when/if he meet Alphy first) and other Primarchs had met Alpharius, or Omegon at some point.

Sure, but with the amount of trickery credited to the twins and their legion, finding a couple other convincing looking marines to play their role isn't far fetched. SIze certainly wouldn't be a limiting factor.

They wouldnt have had the Marines with them when they were first encountered by the Warmaster, just whomever made up their fleet, who would likely have not been on par with Astartes or even a diminutive Primarch and his Twin. Basically every Luna Wolf would have been able to tell.

All depends, really.

We were previously told that Alpharius was almost as tall as Horus, and that Alpha Legionnaires were also unusually tall - like their Primarch.

Then Alpharius got a twin, and lost some height.

Probably so that they could do the whole "I am Alpharius" shtick but then they could have done that with everyone being really tall too...

But then we've also been told that everything (Almost!) is canon still too...

Hasn't GW reversed on that and said that the BL books are NOT cannon?

But in regards to this issue, haven't A and O been using that whole substitution thing after they met Horus? Are we specifically speaking purely about when Horus met them the first time?

 Rippy wrote:
I chose that the emporer knew about him (looked in the tank and saw two), though did not intentionally create him (why would he split one Primarch on purpose?), and he was scattered (The emporer would have made him a general otherwise).

Hmmm... Would Omegon just be another primarch? Every tube can only hold one.

If anyone has ever seen the movie The Prestige and you should watch it, this is basically what I imagine Alpharius and Omegon to be , relationship wise.

Alpharius wrote:All depends, really.

We were previously told that Alpharius was almost as tall as Horus, and that Alpha Legionnaires were also unusually tall - like their Primarch.

Then Alpharius got a twin, and lost some height.

Probably so that they could do the whole "I am Alpharius" shtick but then they could have done that with everyone being really tall too...

But then we've also been told that everything (Almost!) is canon still too...

Fair point.

PhillyT wrote:Hasn't GW reversed on that and said that the BL books are NOT cannon?

But in regards to this issue, haven't A and O been using that whole substitution thing after they met Horus? Are we specifically speaking purely about when Horus met them the first time?

I don't remember them coming out and saying that.

I think we are just trying to find a base for A and O being able to do that, and my point was simply that Horus would have been there before they took over the Legion. Also, I would think that a Primarch, who should have high attention to detail and perfect recall like their Astartes would be able to tell Twins apart, even ones as freaky alike as A and O. There are always subtle differences in movement and how one twin carries themselves compared to another. You then take this and Magnify it for those Primarchs that have Psyker Abilities and for the Emperor, because they would be able to tell through the Warp.

GW's never gonna say BL books aren't canon. they're not stupid. they want us to buy these books. and they actually do support the BL stuff a fair bit, pay attention and you'll find referances to the novels in various codices. (the most obvious one being Uriel Ventriss mentioned by NAME in Codex: Tyranids)

However I imagine they're also not going to feel bound by BL. so you're never gonna see a case of "well we can't do/say this because of a single sentence said in some 10 year old novel"

I think the wording was that this is BL specific interpretation of the 40k Universe and not "official" according to the continuity.

Dan Abnett said something to the effect in a Black Library interview when he stated:

"40K fiction is not an interpretation of the game universe, the game universe being the ‘true’ or ‘definitive’ one; 40K fiction and the game are BOTH interpretations of a definitive universe unavailable to us."

As long as the Emperor wasn't blind, I think he must've known about Omegon, judging from Deliverance Lost. Whether he was on purpose, I have no idea. Incidentally, in vitro fertilisation results in a much higher chance of twins.

 ChazSexington wrote:
As long as the Emperor wasn't blind, I think he must've known about Omegon, judging from Deliverance Lost. Whether he was on purpose, I have no idea. Incidentally, in vitro fertilisation results in a much higher chance of twins.

What happened in Deliverance Lost that leads you to say that?

I can't remember!

 Alpharius wrote:

 david choe wrote:

Please continue to enjoy the beneficial and meaningful of Omegon mystery discussion.

I will?

And since you've made your 'point', please don't continue to spam it in this thread.

It was a rhetorical, but yes.. you have made your meaningful point.

Back to topic.

Alpha Legion are true traitor or member of Chaos legion correct? I have heard that they are working for the Emperor or for the Imperium or working to destroyed Chaos from within.

How so? To be part of Chaos (not Renegade), you must give your souls. How can AL start Chaos Cultist if they are not part of Chaos themselves? This tells me that AL (Alpharius and Omegon ) soul (together) have pledged themselves to Chaos.

I don't think there have ever been a case of traitor or spy to the Chaos, I mean... back stabbing is one thing... but a Loyalist pretend to be in a Chaos Cult and worshiping gods .. is impossible right? Because once you do... you belong to them.

Not quite - or, it isn't that obvious.

OR...I suppose there actually IS a point to discussing this on...

..a discussion forum?!?

Welcome back!

 david choe wrote:



Back to topic.

Alpha Legion are true traitor or member of Chaos legion correct? I have heard that they are working for the Emperor or for the Imperium or working to destroyed Chaos from within.

How so? To be part of Chaos (not Renegade), you must give your souls. How can AL start Chaos Cultist if they are not part of Chaos themselves? This tells me that AL (Alpharius and Omegon ) soul (together) have pledged themselves to Chaos.

I don't think there have ever been a case of traitor or spy to the Chaos, I mean... back stabbing is one thing... but a Loyalist pretend to be in a Chaos Cult and worshiping gods .. is impossible right? Because once you do... you belong to them.

Not all of them have to be tainted for them to create Chaos Cults, the Alpha Legion itself tends to have an aversion to dedicating themselves to Chaos (much like the Night Lords) they use it as a tool to achieve their goal. So, worship of the Gods was not something they started out doing.

Chaos itself isn't as simple as just giving your soul to it anyway, sure there are those that do willingly embrace the Runic Powers, but there are several instances of people not willingly giving themselves to it and still being shaped by it. The Warp doesn't need your consent to spread to you and twist you. Through this a number of Alpha Legionnaires have been fully subverted to Chaos, and others still do in time accept it of their own volition to further their own cause.

The Cabal does say that they have abandoned the Alpha Legion ploy to defeat Chaos, by having them assist Horus in winning the Civil War, for reasons. Their plan was to have the Alpha Legion side with Horus to ensure that Chaos was Triumphant so that it would burn itself out like a fire that burns long enough. Eventually the victors would kill everyone, and then start killing each other and then chaos would lose power from the loss of emotional turmoil. At least that's their theory.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 david choe wrote:



Back to topic.

Alpha Legion are true traitor or member of Chaos legion correct? I have heard that they are working for the Emperor or for the Imperium or working to destroyed Chaos from within.

How so? To be part of Chaos (not Renegade), you must give your souls. How can AL start Chaos Cultist if they are not part of Chaos themselves? This tells me that AL (Alpharius and Omegon ) soul (together) have pledged themselves to Chaos.

I don't think there have ever been a case of traitor or spy to the Chaos, I mean... back stabbing is one thing... but a Loyalist pretend to be in a Chaos Cult and worshiping gods .. is impossible right? Because once you do... you belong to them.

Not all of them have to be tainted for them to create Chaos Cults, the Alpha Legion itself tends to have an aversion to dedicating themselves to Chaos (much like the Night Lords) they use it as a tool to achieve their goal. So, worship of the Gods was not something they started out doing.

Chaos itself isn't as simple as just giving your soul to it anyway, sure there are those that do willingly embrace the Runic Powers, but there are several instances of people not willingly giving themselves to it and still being shaped by it. The Warp doesn't need your consent to spread to you and twist you. Through this a number of Alpha Legionnaires have been fully subverted to Chaos, and others still do in time accept it of their own volition to further their own cause.

The Cabal does say that they have abandoned the Alpha Legion ploy to defeat Chaos, by having them assist Horus in winning the Civil War, for reasons. Their plan was to have the Alpha Legion side with Horus to ensure that Chaos was Triumphant so that it would burn itself out like a fire that burns long enough. Eventually the victors would kill everyone, and then start killing each other and then chaos would lose power from the loss of emotional turmoil. At least that's their theory.

I understand the degree of tainted by Chaos. I am talking about the whole legion. They are one heart with many heads. Chaos won’t allow the one heart if half is loyalist and half is Chaos.... that is not one heart at all.. it is split.

If say there are 10 AL. 3 are loyalist (working for the Emperor) 3 are Renegade (working to destroyed Chaos from with in / ally of the Imperium) and 3 Chaos allies (using Chaos as tools to destroyed Imperium) and 1 Chaos worshiper (souls and working for Chaos), that can’t be possible.

The 1 Chaos worshiper will try to convert the rest or tries to destroy the Loyalist in the legion.

The whole freaking legion will end up killing each other or fracture into warbands.

What I am saying is AL can’t exist at this as permanent stage of the legion.

All traitor legions started out like this, some Death Guard and many other traitor legions were fighting against the rebellion with in the legion. All of them are either dead or escape to join their loyalist brothers back in 30K.

AL is still acting like they are back 10,000 years ago. By now, they must either be part of Chaos faction or not. Seems like they are. You can’t pretend to be working for Chaos for 10,000 years with out being part of it. AL can pretend they are not with Chaos to recruit new members of loyalist… but their hearts are with Chaos… even if they are using Chaos as tools.

This is an interesting split between meant to and not meant to! Looks like the Alpha legion once again successfully fooled us all!

 david choe wrote:

I understand the degree of tainted by Chaos. I am talking about the whole legion. They are one heart with many heads. Chaos won’t allow the one heart if half is loyalist and half is Chaos.... that is not one heart at all.. it is split.

If say there are 10 AL. 3 are loyalist (working for the Emperor) 3 are Renegade (working to destroyed Chaos from with in / ally of the Imperium) and 3 Chaos allies (using Chaos as tools to destroyed Imperium) and 1 Chaos worshiper (souls and working for Chaos), that can’t be possible.

The 1 Chaos worshiper will try to convert the rest or tries to destroy the Loyalist in the legion.

The whole freaking legion will end up killing each other or fracture into warbands.

What I am saying is AL can’t exist at this as permanent stage of the legion.

All traitor legions started out like this, some Death Guard and many other traitor legions were fighting against the rebellion with in the legion. All of them are either dead or escape to join their loyalist brothers back in 30K.

AL is still acting like they are back 10,000 years ago. By now, they must either be part of Chaos faction or not. Seems like they are. You can’t pretend to be working for Chaos for 10,000 years with out being part of it. AL can pretend they are not with Chaos to recruit new members of loyalist… but their hearts are with Chaos… even if they are using Chaos as tools.

Now you are assuming that all heads of the Hydra are working together. They are as you have pointed out, individual Warbands. Even in the Heresy, they were diveded enough that the corruption of one would not affect the other. They are a truly autonomous force, and have always been, they unite to strike at one location on occasion, but still operate individually of one another. You even see that with Alpharius and Omegon, they are operating against one another.

Even their Cultists can be different, one band maybe un-dedicated to Chaos and just use Anti-Imperial Revolutionaries, and another Chaos Cultists. That doesn't mean the Revolutionaries wont find Chaos on their own though.

Remember, only Five of the Legions are entirely (as in every member) dedicated to Chaos, the Emperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Word Bearers. The Black and Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Night Lords all have varrying degrees of dedication, with the Black Legion having more Legionnaires that have dedicated themselves to Chaos, and the latter three having significantly less.

Also as for only having half of a Legion, I present to you the argument of The Fallen Angels, chaos only got a chunk of the First Legion.

I understand what you mean, but let me explain again.

The other Chaos legions like Black, NL, Iron, etc… are Chaos Proxies. They are Chaos allies. Which is not the same as AL if they are still loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in. If AL is a loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in, this is out right Chaos enemy… the very worst kind … a traitor of Chaos.

Let me give you an analogy. (no need for anybody to get their panties in a bunch here, this is just fiction)

USA – is the Imperium
ISIS/ ISIL – AL
Islam – Chaos
Christianity – god Emperor

In our real world it is clear the ISIS is anti USA and pro Islam. It would be impossible for ISIS to be a double agent organization who is actually working for USA and are Christians. Yes, a few ISIS might be agent for USA. But no way can an organization as a whole be USA puppet.

This is AL. How can the whole legion be working for the Imperium or trying to destroy Chaos? There is no way that can be possible considering all the war crimes they have done to the Imperium and all the riots and Chaos cult they have created. AL is just another Chaos Proxies is my point.

Last – if they are warband, then they are not a Legion anymore. They are many heads working TOGETHER, means that their goals are the same. Again, using ISIL example…they have terror cells everywhere and working independently or as lone wolf…but ISIL goals are the same. If AL is working against each other as a ploy… and their goals are the same, then it is ok. What is their goal or loyalty then? Chaos or loyalist? We don’t know…. Or do we?

Actions suggested that they have turned to Chaos a long long time ago…. In this galaxy not so far far away.

 david choe wrote:


I understand what you mean, but let me explain again.

The other Chaos legions like Black, NL, Iron, etc… are Chaos Proxies. They are Chaos allies. Which is not the same as AL if they are still loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in. If AL is a loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in, this is out right Chaos enemy… the very worst kind … a traitor of Chaos.

Let me give you an analogy. (no need for anybody to get their panties in a bunch here, this is just fiction)

USA – is the Imperium
ISIS/ ISIL – AL
Islam – Chaos
Christianity – god Emperor

In our real world it is clear the ISIS is anti USA and pro Islam. It would be impossible for ISIS to be a double agent organization who is actually working for USA and are Christians. Yes, a few ISIS might be agent for USA. But no way can an organization as a whole be USA puppet.

This is AL. How can the whole legion be working for the Imperium or trying to destroy Chaos? There is no way that can be possible considering all the war crimes they have done to the Imperium and all the riots and Chaos cult they have created. AL is just another Chaos Proxies is my point.

Last – if they are warband, then they are not a Legion anymore. They are many heads working TOGETHER, means that their goals are the same. Again, using ISIL example…they have terror cells everywhere and working independently or as lone wolf…but ISIL goals are the same. If AL is working against each other as a ploy… and their goals are the same, then it is ok. What is their goal or loyalty then? Chaos or loyalist? We don’t know…. Or do we?

Actions suggested that they have turned to Chaos a long long time ago…. In this galaxy not so far far away.

Except I would say the ISIL Alpha Legion comparison would be wrong, very wrong. So wrong that I am just gonna simplify it to one point. ISIL are religious fanatics, the Alpha Legion are not.

The Alpha Legion has been described many times as many heads that SOMETIMES work together, not always. Each group has conflicting intrests, each group goes for a different thing. Has their questionable 'still loyal' thing been skewed, most certainly. But not all of the Alpha Legion work against each other as a ploy, the do it legitimately. There are so many heads to the Hydra that it would be literally impossible to bunch them together and say the are all working for the same goal. Do they all want the Imperium brought down? Clearly no as was pointed out in the thread earlier, it would seem that there is an Omegon faction that is trying to fight for the Imperium. But those that are trying to bring it down? I would say no, they aren't all Chaos, as each cell would have their own methods, and not all would be Chaos Proxies, as some would be bringing them down with out the use of Chaos, or they would use it as a tool. And a tool doesn't instantly make you a follower.

Additionally, saying that the Night Lords are servants of Chaos is wrong, for the most part. The majority of the Legion scorn the Gods and their gifts. Are there exceptions? Most certainly.

Also, Chaos does have a group that is Chaos against Chaos. Its Malice, a lesser god who used to be called Malal.

You are missing the point of ISIL example, it is not about the religion.. .it is the unity of their organization for the same goal was my point.

AL is an organization (in fact, they are one of the best). Every organization must have a mission or a goal. It is very simple; either AL is for or against Imperium. The methods to accomplish its’ mission is a different discussion (which include, double agent, misdirection, using Chaos, etc…).

What is AL mission and ultimate goal then? What are they risking their lives for the past 10,000 years for? The goal of the legion must be the same. It is all or nothing. They are a legion and united or not? What you are suggesting doesn’t sounds like they are a Hydra at all, it sounds more like two or even three hydras. If that is the case, they are now many chapter-like or warbands using the Alpha legion only for the name.

Yes, NL is Chaos Proxies or allies …you think Chaos are letting NL using their demons or resources for free? They let NL live and use Chaos resources because NL is their proxies, they are hurting Imperium or hurting enemy of Chaos. They are both each other “tools”. Also, I never say NL is Chaos servant. Proxies means very differently.

Your example of Chaos Malice is an example of Chaos traitor. Are they not killed on site by the other legions? They share the same names as in “Chaos” but of course there are many factions. Emperor Children is enemy with World Eaters. We know this.

To get back to the point before you and I get off track. I am saying that Alpha Legion as a Legion shared the same goals. We as the reader do not know what that goal is, but as Hydra has many heads and one body… they are working together for one body.

 david choe wrote:

Spoiler:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 david choe wrote:


I understand what you mean, but let me explain again.

The other Chaos legions like Black, NL, Iron, etc… are Chaos Proxies. They are Chaos allies. Which is not the same as AL if they are still loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in. If AL is a loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in, this is out right Chaos enemy… the very worst kind … a traitor of Chaos.

Let me give you an analogy. (no need for anybody to get their panties in a bunch here, this is just fiction)

USA – is the Imperium
ISIS/ ISIL – AL
Islam – Chaos
Christianity – god Emperor

In our real world it is clear the ISIS is anti USA and pro Islam. It would be impossible for ISIS to be a double agent organization who is actually working for USA and are Christians. Yes, a few ISIS might be agent for USA. But no way can an organization as a whole be USA puppet.

This is AL. How can the whole legion be working for the Imperium or trying to destroy Chaos? There is no way that can be possible considering all the war crimes they have done to the Imperium and all the riots and Chaos cult they have created. AL is just another Chaos Proxies is my point.

Last – if they are warband, then they are not a Legion anymore. They are many heads working TOGETHER, means that their goals are the same. Again, using ISIL example…they have terror cells everywhere and working independently or as lone wolf…but ISIL goals are the same. If AL is working against each other as a ploy… and their goals are the same, then it is ok. What is their goal or loyalty then? Chaos or loyalist? We don’t know…. Or do we?

Actions suggested that they have turned to Chaos a long long time ago…. In this galaxy not so far far away.

Except I would say the ISIL Alpha Legion comparison would be wrong, very wrong. So wrong that I am just gonna simplify it to one point. ISIL are religious fanatics, the Alpha Legion are not.

The Alpha Legion has been described many times as many heads that SOMETIMES work together, not always. Each group has conflicting intrests, each group goes for a different thing. Has their questionable 'still loyal' thing been skewed, most certainly. But not all of the Alpha Legion work against each other as a ploy, the do it legitimately. There are so many heads to the Hydra that it would be literally impossible to bunch them together and say the are all working for the same goal. Do they all want the Imperium brought down? Clearly no as was pointed out in the thread earlier, it would seem that there is an Omegon faction that is trying to fight for the Imperium. But those that are trying to bring it down? I would say no, they aren't all Chaos, as each cell would have their own methods, and not all would be Chaos Proxies, as some would be bringing them down with out the use of Chaos, or they would use it as a tool. And a tool doesn't instantly make you a follower.

Additionally, saying that the Night Lords are servants of Chaos is wrong, for the most part. The majority of the Legion scorn the Gods and their gifts. Are there exceptions? Most certainly.

Also, Chaos does have a group that is Chaos against Chaos. Its Malice, a lesser god who used to be called Malal.

You are missing the point of ISIL example, it is not about the religion.. .it is the unity of their organization for the same goal was my point.

AL is an organization (in fact, they are one of the best). Every organization must have a mission or a goal. It is very simple; either AL is for or against Imperium. The methods to accomplish its’ mission is a different discussion (which include, double agent, misdirection, using Chaos, etc…).

What is AL mission and ultimate goal then? What are they risking their lives for the past 10,000 years for? The goal of the legion must be the same. It is all or nothing. They are a legion and united or not? What you are suggesting doesn’t sounds like they are a Hydra at all, it sounds more like two or even three hydras. If that is the case, they are now many chapter-like or warbands using the Alpha legion only for the name.

Yes, NL is Chaos Proxies or allies …you think Chaos are letting NL using their demons or resources for free? They let NL live and use Chaos resources because NL is their proxies, they are hurting Imperium or hurting enemy of Chaos. They are both each other “tools”. Also, I never say NL is Chaos servant. Proxies means very differently.

Your example of Chaos Malice is an example of Chaos traitor. Are they not killed on site by the other legions? They share the same names as in “Chaos” but of course there are many factions. Emperor Children is enemy with World Eaters. We know this.

To get back to the point before you and I get off track. I am saying that Alpha Legion as a Legion shared the same goals. We as the reader do not know what that goal is, but as Hydra has many heads and one body… they are working together for one body.

They did, to start with. They're already fracturing during the heresy, let alone in 40k. Now they're just a bunch of cells spread through the Galaxy with their own goals and ambitions.

 david choe wrote:

Spoiler:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 david choe wrote:


I understand what you mean, but let me explain again.

The other Chaos legions like Black, NL, Iron, etc… are Chaos Proxies. They are Chaos allies. Which is not the same as AL if they are still loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in. If AL is a loyalist or trying to destroy Chaos from with in, this is out right Chaos enemy… the very worst kind … a traitor of Chaos.

Let me give you an analogy. (no need for anybody to get their panties in a bunch here, this is just fiction)

USA – is the Imperium
ISIS/ ISIL – AL
Islam – Chaos
Christianity – god Emperor

In our real world it is clear the ISIS is anti USA and pro Islam. It would be impossible for ISIS to be a double agent organization who is actually working for USA and are Christians. Yes, a few ISIS might be agent for USA. But no way can an organization as a whole be USA puppet.

This is AL. How can the whole legion be working for the Imperium or trying to destroy Chaos? There is no way that can be possible considering all the war crimes they have done to the Imperium and all the riots and Chaos cult they have created. AL is just another Chaos Proxies is my point.

Last – if they are warband, then they are not a Legion anymore. They are many heads working TOGETHER, means that their goals are the same. Again, using ISIL example…they have terror cells everywhere and working independently or as lone wolf…but ISIL goals are the same. If AL is working against each other as a ploy… and their goals are the same, then it is ok. What is their goal or loyalty then? Chaos or loyalist? We don’t know…. Or do we?

Actions suggested that they have turned to Chaos a long long time ago…. In this galaxy not so far far away.

Except I would say the ISIL Alpha Legion comparison would be wrong, very wrong. So wrong that I am just gonna simplify it to one point. ISIL are religious fanatics, the Alpha Legion are not.

The Alpha Legion has been described many times as many heads that SOMETIMES work together, not always. Each group has conflicting intrests, each group goes for a different thing. Has their questionable 'still loyal' thing been skewed, most certainly. But not all of the Alpha Legion work against each other as a ploy, the do it legitimately. There are so many heads to the Hydra that it would be literally impossible to bunch them together and say the are all working for the same goal. Do they all want the Imperium brought down? Clearly no as was pointed out in the thread earlier, it would seem that there is an Omegon faction that is trying to fight for the Imperium. But those that are trying to bring it down? I would say no, they aren't all Chaos, as each cell would have their own methods, and not all would be Chaos Proxies, as some would be bringing them down with out the use of Chaos, or they would use it as a tool. And a tool doesn't instantly make you a follower.

Additionally, saying that the Night Lords are servants of Chaos is wrong, for the most part. The majority of the Legion scorn the Gods and their gifts. Are there exceptions? Most certainly.

Also, Chaos does have a group that is Chaos against Chaos. Its Malice, a lesser god who used to be called Malal.

You are missing the point of ISIL example, it is not about the religion.. .it is the unity of their organization for the same goal was my point.

AL is an organization (in fact, they are one of the best). Every organization must have a mission or a goal. It is very simple; either AL is for or against Imperium. The methods to accomplish its’ mission is a different discussion (which include, double agent, misdirection, using Chaos, etc…).

What is AL mission and ultimate goal then? What are they risking their lives for the past 10,000 years for? The goal of the legion must be the same. It is all or nothing. They are a legion and united or not? What you are suggesting doesn’t sounds like they are a Hydra at all, it sounds more like two or even three hydras. If that is the case, they are now many chapter-like or warbands using the Alpha legion only for the name.

Yes, NL is Chaos Proxies or allies …you think Chaos are letting NL using their demons or resources for free? They let NL live and use Chaos resources because NL is their proxies, they are hurting Imperium or hurting enemy of Chaos. They are both each other “tools”. Also, I never say NL is Chaos servant. Proxies means very differently.

Your example of Chaos Malice is an example of Chaos traitor. Are they not killed on site by the other legions? They share the same names as in “Chaos” but of course there are many factions. Emperor Children is enemy with World Eaters. We know this.

To get back to the point before you and I get off track. I am saying that Alpha Legion as a Legion shared the same goals. We as the reader do not know what that goal is, but as Hydra has many heads and one body… they are working together for one body.

except there isn't this unity. ISIS is very much a unified movement, but they are also based almost entirely in a single geo-physical area. the Alpha legion operates via a cell based network across the galaxy. very very VERY differnt things. a cell based network isn't in contact often with the "head office" (beyond maybe one contact person) the rest are kept in the dark etc. Honestly a good example of a cell based structure can be found in Star Wars Rebels. where the protagionists didn't even realize until the season finalle they where just a cell in a larger orginization

At this point, what is obvious is that the Alpha Legion is quite splintered - and this started during the Heresy.

What we've seen of the 'modern' Legion remains mostly 'traitor'.

We have a few instances of Legionaries working 'For the Emperor" but even if there are still 'loyal' Alpha Legion cells, they'd have to work in secret as everyone pretty much believes they are The Enemy.

While I'm on the subject - let's stick to fictional sources and not try to draw parallels to real world despicable organizations.

At best, it is a weak attempt at being provocative and at worst, it is outright trolling.

 ImAGeek wrote:


They did, to start with. They're already fracturing during the heresy, let alone in 40k. Now they're just a bunch of cells spread through the Galaxy with their own goals and ambitions.

According to the fluff, current Alpha Legion internal organization is unknown. However, the Legion is still working together even with splinter cells. The cells (heads) do report to the body of the Hydra.

They are a traitor legion and they are working for themselves, but yes… there are warbands. Those warbands are not part of the legion anymore, but you would be mistaken if you think Alpha Legion is a broken up legion like World Eaters.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
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except there isn't this unity. ISIS is very much a unified movement, but they are also based almost entirely in a single geo-physical area. the Alpha legion operates via a cell based network across the galaxy. very very VERY differnt things. a cell based network isn't in contact often with the "head office" (beyond maybe one contact person) the rest are kept in the dark etc. Honestly a good example of a cell based structure can be found in Star Wars Rebels. where the protagionists didn't even realize until the season finalle they where just a cell in a larger orginization

You are talking about the method of AL operation. I am talking about who the legion is loyal too. From the fluff that I’ve been reading, it is clear that AL is a traitor legion working for their legion. The legion’s motive seems to be to destroy the Imperium. Hatred of Imperium seems to be the motivation. They seems to be doing this not for power or wealth, just hatred.

And there, of course, you're mistaken.

Unless you've been reading unreleased material, or fan fiction?

 david choe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


They did, to start with. They're already fracturing during the heresy, let alone in 40k. Now they're just a bunch of cells spread through the Galaxy with their own goals and ambitions.

According to the fluff, current Alpha Legion internal organization is unknown. However, the Legion is still working together even with splinter cells. The cells (heads) do report to the body of the Hydra.

They are a traitor legion and they are working for themselves, but yes… there are warbands. Those warbands are not part of the legion anymore, but you would be mistaken if you think Alpha Legion is a broken up legion like World Eaters.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
.png]


except there isn't this unity. ISIS is very much a unified movement, but they are also based almost entirely in a single geo-physical area. the Alpha legion operates via a cell based network across the galaxy. very very VERY differnt things. a cell based network isn't in contact often with the "head office" (beyond maybe one contact person) the rest are kept in the dark etc. Honestly a good example of a cell based structure can be found in Star Wars Rebels. where the protagionists didn't even realize until the season finalle they where just a cell in a larger orginization

You are talking about the method of AL operation. I am talking about who the legion is loyal too. From the fluff that I’ve been reading, it is clear that AL is a traitor legion working for their legion. The legion’s motive seems to be to destroy the Imperium. Hatred of Imperium seems to be the motivation. They seems to be doing this not for power or wealth, just hatred.

Dunno where you have gotten this, but as Alpharius says (our Alpharius, not the Primarch...unless they are one and the same ) you seem to have gotten this from lore that isn't widely distributed/available or (rather poor) fanfiction

 Dark Lord Seanron wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


They did, to start with. They're already fracturing during the heresy, let alone in 40k. Now they're just a bunch of cells spread through the Galaxy with their own goals and ambitions.

According to the fluff, current Alpha Legion internal organization is unknown. However, the Legion is still working together even with splinter cells. The cells (heads) do report to the body of the Hydra.

They are a traitor legion and they are working for themselves, but yes… there are warbands. Those warbands are not part of the legion anymore, but you would be mistaken if you think Alpha Legion is a broken up legion like World Eaters.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
.png]


except there isn't this unity. ISIS is very much a unified movement, but they are also based almost entirely in a single geo-physical area. the Alpha legion operates via a cell based network across the galaxy. very very VERY differnt things. a cell based network isn't in contact often with the "head office" (beyond maybe one contact person) the rest are kept in the dark etc. Honestly a good example of a cell based structure can be found in Star Wars Rebels. where the protagionists didn't even realize until the season finalle they where just a cell in a larger orginization

You are talking about the method of AL operation. I am talking about who the legion is loyal too. From the fluff that I’ve been reading, it is clear that AL is a traitor legion working for their legion. The legion’s motive seems to be to destroy the Imperium. Hatred of Imperium seems to be the motivation. They seems to be doing this not for power or wealth, just hatred.

Dunno where you have gotten this, but as Alpharius says (our Alpharius, not the Primarch...unless they are one and the same ) you seem to have gotten this from lore that isn't widely distributed/available or (rather poor) fanfiction

Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.

 Alpharius wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
As long as the Emperor wasn't blind, I think he must've known about Omegon, judging from Deliverance Lost. Whether he was on purpose, I have no idea. Incidentally, in vitro fertilisation results in a much higher chance of twins.

What happened in Deliverance Lost that leads you to say that?

I can't remember!

I checked it again now; the primarchs were incubated in glass cases.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
As long as the Emperor wasn't blind, I think he must've known about Omegon, judging from Deliverance Lost. Whether he was on purpose, I have no idea. Incidentally, in vitro fertilisation results in a much higher chance of twins.

What happened in Deliverance Lost that leads you to say that?

I can't remember!

I checked it again now; the primarchs were incubated in glass cases.

.....I'm lost on the relevance here. Help