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Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.
That we aren't sure where it is you are getting that the Legion remains a unified force dedicated to single goal when all other evidence seems to be to the contrary. If they were still on the same page, they would act more decisively, you don't need ten thousand years to set up a plan to tear down an already crumbling Imperium.
Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.
That we aren't sure where it is you are getting that the Legion remains a unified force dedicated to single goal when all other evidence seems to be to the contrary. If they were still on the same page, they would act more decisively, you don't need ten thousand years to set up a plan to tear down an already crumbling Imperium.
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
Shidank wrote:
Oh, I was lost because I didn't know anyone could still try and argue the Emperor didn't know there were two.
There will always be multiple sides to any discussion.
Alpharius wrote:Hmmm...
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
I think it could be a case of multiple different descriptions by several authors over multiple novels, there's bound to be overlap.
The split being because of Chaos could be interesting, a plan of their that back fires.
I'd also almost suggest that perhaps after the loss of the Primarchs, and their rediscovery, due to the time it was taking to locate Alpharius. The Emperor could have chosen to create Omegon from the left over Primarch material to replace Alpharius. Though that would imply that the Emperor knew when he'd find the Primarchs, and that he didn't know Alpharius would be found.
Shidank wrote:
Oh, I was lost because I didn't know anyone could still try and argue the Emperor didn't know there were two.
There will always be multiple sides to any discussion.
Alpharius wrote:Hmmm...
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
I think it could be a case of multiple different descriptions by several authors over multiple novels, there's bound to be overlap.
The split being because of Chaos could be interesting, a plan of their that back fires.
I'd also almost suggest that perhaps after the loss of the Primarchs, and their rediscovery, due to the time it was taking to locate Alpharius. The Emperor could have chosen to create Omegon from the left over Primarch material to replace Alpharius. Though that would imply that the Emperor knew when he'd find the Primarchs, and that he didn't know Alpharius would be found.
The two AL Primarchs were together in the pod though, going by First Heretic.
Shidank wrote:
Oh, I was lost because I didn't know anyone could still try and argue the Emperor didn't know there were two.
There will always be multiple sides to any discussion.
Alpharius wrote:Hmmm...
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
I think it could be a case of multiple different descriptions by several authors over multiple novels, there's bound to be overlap.
The split being because of Chaos could be interesting, a plan of their that back fires.
I'd also almost suggest that perhaps after the loss of the Primarchs, and their rediscovery, due to the time it was taking to locate Alpharius. The Emperor could have chosen to create Omegon from the left over Primarch material to replace Alpharius. Though that would imply that the Emperor knew when he'd find the Primarchs, and that he didn't know Alpharius would be found.
The two AL Primarchs were together in the pod though, going by First Heretic.
Wasnt that a vision induced by the Runic Powers though? They are hardly a reliable narrator.
Shidank wrote:
Oh, I was lost because I didn't know anyone could still try and argue the Emperor didn't know there were two.
There will always be multiple sides to any discussion.
Alpharius wrote:Hmmm...
I thought they were in things that looked more like drop pods with a small armored glass view port?
Or was that from Horus' 'vision' in Horus Rising?
Either way, I'm starting to think that the Emperor did NOT initially know about Omegon because Omegon wasn't there yet - that the splitting was caused by "Chaos" and that, ironically enough, the spilt twin turned out to be the "Loyal" one!
I think it could be a case of multiple different descriptions by several authors over multiple novels, there's bound to be overlap.
The split being because of Chaos could be interesting, a plan of their that back fires.
I'd also almost suggest that perhaps after the loss of the Primarchs, and their rediscovery, due to the time it was taking to locate Alpharius. The Emperor could have chosen to create Omegon from the left over Primarch material to replace Alpharius. Though that would imply that the Emperor knew when he'd find the Primarchs, and that he didn't know Alpharius would be found.
The two AL Primarchs were together in the pod though, going by First Heretic.
Wasnt that a vision induced by the Runic Powers though? They are hardly a reliable narrator.
Well yeah but of all the things they would lie about in that vision, that seems like a silly thing.
Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.
That we aren't sure where it is you are getting that the Legion remains a unified force dedicated to single goal when all other evidence seems to be to the contrary. If they were still on the same page, they would act more decisively, you don't need ten thousand years to set up a plan to tear down an already crumbling Imperium.
I think the same about the other positions. Where are they getting the information? Just reading the Wikia, Lex, and CSM codex stated that they are a legion and they have cells all over the galaxy. I want to use real life example, but MOD didn’t think it was a good idea because we are too sensitive I guess.
Please don’t laugh. I got no choice here.
So I will use Cobra from G.I. Joe. Cobra has secret bases all over earth and they all are working together at times and at other times working on their own projects or plans. Example, we could assume that Cobra in India is trying to overthrow the government and put one of their commanders in charge. While Destro and the Baroness are working together trying to kidnap Duke in USA. However, Cobra mission is World domination. Infighting among Cobra members is common, especially when World Domination victory is with in their grasps. Storm Shadow (the white Ninja) at times, work as a rogue agent and sometime seems to be working with G.I. Joe because honor and pride. However, as Splinter as Cobra is at time … they all answer to Cobra Commander.
That is pretty much Alpha Legion.
Alpha Legion is only one legion. Imperium is freaking 1,000,000 planets. It is not an easy task to defeat that power. Yeah… it has been 10,000 years. They are still alive… to me that is a freaking victory.
One would guess that, to beat the Imperium is not by Wars, but by politics. Alpha Legion must have been putting their agents in power position in the Imperium and slowly kills it from with in. If you think the Imperium is crumbling, I think Alpha Legion was part of that.
Nah. Come on down to Molech. We've got something to show you.
I don't know.
ImAGeek wrote: Well yeah but of all the things they would lie about in that vision, that seems like a silly thing.
Because its in their nature to lie. Though, if Omegon was created to replace Alpharius, that does seem like something you'd say to entice a Primarch. That your 'father' was creating replacements for x reason.
But if I remember right the vision was shown to the Gal Vorbak wasn't it?
Maybe I'm not sure what MOD Alpharius and you are saying then.
That we aren't sure where it is you are getting that the Legion remains a unified force dedicated to single goal when all other evidence seems to be to the contrary. If they were still on the same page, they would act more decisively, you don't need ten thousand years to set up a plan to tear down an already crumbling Imperium.
I think the same about the other positions. Where are they getting the information? Just reading the Wikia, Lex, and CSM codex stated that they are a legion and they have cells all over the galaxy. I want to use real life example, but MOD didn’t think it was a good idea because we are too sensitive I guess.
Please don’t laugh. I got no choice here. So I will use Cobra from G.I. Joe. Cobra has secret bases all over earth and they all are working together at times and at other times working on their own projects or plans. Example, we could assume that Cobra in India is trying to overthrow the government and put one of their commanders in charge. While Destro and the Baroness are working together trying to kidnap Duke in USA. However, Cobra mission is World domination. Infighting among Cobra members is common, especially when World Domination victory is with in their grasps. Storm Shadow (the white Ninja) at times, work as a rogue agent and sometime seems to be working with G.I. Joe because honor and pride. However, as Splinter as Cobra is at time … they all answer to Cobra Commander.
That is pretty much Alpha Legion.
Alpha Legion is only one legion. Imperium is freaking 1,000,000 planets. It is not an easy task to defeat that power. Yeah… it has been 10,000 years. They are still alive… to me that is a freaking victory.
One would guess that, to beat the Imperium is not by Wars, but by politics. Alpha Legion must have been putting their agents in power position in the Imperium and slowly kills it from with in. If you think the Imperium is crumbling, I think Alpha Legion was part of that.
Our sources are the Horus Heresy series of novels, and the Forge World Horus Heresy books, and the Siege of Vraks book. Heck even the codex says that its not for certain, and Im sure there are a number of other books that support our theory.
The Cobra comparison is a pretty decent one, but I'd think they are less formalized than that after 10k years.
Additionally, they may just be one Legion, but they have completely subverted entire chapters into going renegade, same with guardsmen and planetary populations, and that is one cell at a time. If they were organized they could handle it all, it would take them a couple thousand years maybe, but not 10k.
The Imperium was crumbling the moment the Heresy started, and it hasn't recovered, if anything the Alphas have only slowly being working at the foundation. Their progression is so minute that it may as well have stagnated in the grand scheme of things.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/10 15:42:04
ImAGeek wrote:
Well yeah but of all the things they would lie about in that vision, that seems like a silly thing.
Because its in their nature to lie. Though, if Omegon was created to replace Alpharius, that does seem like something you'd say to entice a Primarch. That your 'father' was creating replacements for x reason.
But if I remember right the vision was shown to the Gal Vorbak wasn't it?
I suppose, but the whole thing was staged for them to turn the Word Bearers so any lies would be to further that goal, and like you say it almost doesn't. But you're right, we don't know, so I guess Omegon could've been made afterwards.
And yeah. Well, it was shown to the marines that became the Gal Vorbak.
ImAGeek wrote:
Well yeah but of all the things they would lie about in that vision, that seems like a silly thing.
Because its in their nature to lie. Though, if Omegon was created to replace Alpharius, that does seem like something you'd say to entice a Primarch. That your 'father' was creating replacements for x reason.
But if I remember right the vision was shown to the Gal Vorbak wasn't it?
I suppose, but the whole thing was staged for them to turn the Word Bearers so any lies would be to further that goal, and like you say it almost doesn't. But you're right, we don't know, so I guess Omegon could've been made afterwards.
And yeah. Well, it was shown to the marines that became the Gal Vorbak.
Sometimes the lie is to just fill additional details that would need to be there for the whole lie to work. It was just a theory anyway, likely he was created at the same time.
Our sources are the Horus Heresy series of novels, and the Forge World Horus Heresy books, and the Siege of Vraks book. Heck even the codex says that its not for certain, and Im sure there are a number of other books that support our theory.
The Cobra comparison is a pretty decent one, but I'd think they are less formalized than that after 10k years.
Additionally, they may just be one Legion, but they have completely subverted entire chapters into going renegade, same with guardsmen and planetary populations, and that is one cell at a time. If they were organized they could handle it all, it would take them a couple thousand years maybe, but not 10k.
The Imperium was crumbling the moment the Heresy started, and it hasn't recovered, if anything the Alphas have only slowly being working at the foundation. Their progression is so minute that it may as well have stagnated in the grand scheme of things.
Granted that I never read most of those books that you mentioned, but I've browsed them and communicated with people who have read them. I didn’t get the impression that the Legion is dead and they are broken apart or there is no more central commander.
They say that in any search for truth in 40K fluff, there are 3 phases.
Phase 1 – They denied it.
Phase 2 – It conflicted with their version of the books they have read.
Phase 3 – They know it all alone.
So, just to make sure that I know what contradiction you are talking about, why don’t you state it.
You know my position, what part is it that you think is not correct?
Our sources are the Horus Heresy series of novels, and the Forge World Horus Heresy books, and the Siege of Vraks book. Heck even the codex says that its not for certain, and Im sure there are a number of other books that support our theory.
The Cobra comparison is a pretty decent one, but I'd think they are less formalized than that after 10k years.
Additionally, they may just be one Legion, but they have completely subverted entire chapters into going renegade, same with guardsmen and planetary populations, and that is one cell at a time. If they were organized they could handle it all, it would take them a couple thousand years maybe, but not 10k.
The Imperium was crumbling the moment the Heresy started, and it hasn't recovered, if anything the Alphas have only slowly being working at the foundation. Their progression is so minute that it may as well have stagnated in the grand scheme of things.
Granted that I never read most of those books that you mentioned, but I've browsed them and communicated with people who have read them. I didn’t get the impression that the Legion is dead and they are broken apart or there is no more central commander.
They say that in any search for truth in 40K fluff, there are 3 phases.
Phase 1 – They denied it.
Phase 2 – It conflicted with their version of the books they have read.
Phase 3 – They know it all alone.
So, just to make sure that I know what contradiction you are talking about, why don’t you state it.
You know my position, what part is it that you think is not correct?
What is your position?
The contradition is in the books, while you think they dedicate themselves to Chaos, they have been shown working against other forces of Chaos. In the Horus Heresy Book 3, Horus is furious to discover the Forge World Alpharius has been sent to take will require Horus to station men there, in order to keep it compliant. He demands an explanation from Alpharius who simply responds "The Devil is not Mocked." Showing the Alpha's are not working in Chaos' best interests (going with the Cabal's abandoning of the Alpha Legion Gambit). The Seventh Serpent show Alpharius hunting his own men for being "loyalists" which would then imply that they have sided with Chaos. Everything about the Legion is contradictions. And in the 41st Millennium next to nothing is known about their goals and operations other than it seems they are against the Imperium, and that they operate in independent Cells that sometimes loosely coordinate with each other.
My position is that the Legion is not a unified as you think, and that they are not as a whole dedicated to the Ruinous Powers. Personally I think all the heads are doing their own thing, some work more closely with others, while others are out on their own.
The contradition is in the books, while you think they dedicate themselves to Chaos, they have been shown working against other forces of Chaos. In the Horus Heresy Book 3, Horus is furious to discover the Forge World Alpharius has been sent to take will require Horus to station men there, in order to keep it compliant. He demands an explanation from Alpharius who simply responds "The Devil is not Mocked." Showing the Alpha's are not working in Chaos' best interests (going with the Cabal's abandoning of the Alpha Legion Gambit). The Seventh Serpent show Alpharius hunting his own men for being "loyalists" which would then imply that they have sided with Chaos. Everything about the Legion is contradictions. And in the 41st Millennium next to nothing is known about their goals and operations other than it seems they are against the Imperium, and that they operate in independent Cells that sometimes loosely coordinate with each other.
My position is that the Legion is not a unified as you think, and that they are not as a whole dedicated to the Ruinous Powers. Personally I think all the heads are doing their own thing, some work more closely with others, while others are out on their own.
I’m glade you wrote this out and stated your position.
If you go back and read my post, there is no contradiction from what you are saying to me.
You are saying that the legion is not as unified as you think. What does that means?
I said that the legion is a legion with a central command. They have many cells (head) working for the body (central command, the Legion). That is exactly what you are saying. You just put in an excerpt that some work closely than others. Which I never mentioned, but it must be understood… that some cells have 5 guys and some might have 1,000 in that network.
I never said that they were dedicated to Ruinous Powers. I said they must be part of Chaos or it’s proxies. That doesn’t mean that they are worshiping Chaos. Proxies just mean they are fighting on behalf of Chaos at times, and AL are NOT doing it for FREE. I am sure AL gets a lot in return.
Excerpt from Lexicaum.
While these cells operate independently of one another and destroying one will not effect the effort of their overall mission, the Legion still loosely coordinates its actions across the Galaxy. Who is coordinating these efforts and how they are doing so is largely a mystery to the Imperium, but many believe they achieve this through "Operatives". These figures are apparently human, but have undergone limited psycho-hypnotic therapy to make them absolutely loyal to the Legion. These operatives, fully infiltrated into Imperial society, act as the link between Alpha Legion cells and Cultists, and are their primary method of galaxy-wide communication.
This is why I say that AL is still a Legion. United. Sure some have broken off to form their Warban or went Chaos lunatic, but over all AL is strong. They are far far away from Emperor’s Children or World Eaters broken up.
Again, I stated …
Alpha Legion – still a legion with central command. Not broken up.
Alpha Legion (as a whole legion) is not Chaos pawns, but a proxies or allies or trading partners. They are “friendly” to each other.
Alpha Legion - they work for themselves, they answer to their central commander. Who ever that is.
Alpha Legion – They are not part of Imperium. They are trying to destroy the Imperium.
I’m glade you wrote this out and stated your position.
If you go back and read my post, there is no contradiction from what you are saying to me.
You are saying that the legion is not as unified as you think. What does that means? I said that the legion is a legion with a central command. They have many cells (head) working for the body (central command, the Legion). That is exactly what you are saying. You just put in an excerpt that some work closely than others. Which I never mentioned, but it must be understood… that some cells have 5 guys and some might have 1,000 in that network.
I never said that they were dedicated to Ruinous Powers. I said they must be part of Chaos or it’s proxies. That doesn’t mean that they are worshiping Chaos. Proxies just mean they are fighting on behalf of Chaos at times, and AL are NOT doing it for FREE. I am sure AL gets a lot in return.
Excerpt from Lexicaum.
While these cells operate independently of one another and destroying one will not effect the effort of their overall mission, the Legion still loosely coordinates its actions across the Galaxy. Who is coordinating these efforts and how they are doing so is largely a mystery to the Imperium, but many believe they achieve this through "Operatives". These figures are apparently human, but have undergone limited psycho-hypnotic therapy to make them absolutely loyal to the Legion. These operatives, fully infiltrated into Imperial society, act as the link between Alpha Legion cells and Cultists, and are their primary method of galaxy-wide communication.
This is why I say that AL is still a Legion. United. Sure some have broken off to form their Warban or went Chaos lunatic, but over all AL is strong. They are far far away from Emperor’s Children or World Eaters broken up.
Again, I stated … Alpha Legion – still a legion with central command. Not broken up. Alpha Legion (as a whole legion) is not Chaos pawns, but a proxies or allies or trading partners. They are “friendly” to each other. Alpha Legion - they work for themselves, they answer to their central commander. Who ever that is. Alpha Legion – They are not part of Imperium. They are trying to destroy the Imperium.
The Ruinous Powers are Chaos, to be Chaos is to be dedicated to them. I'm saying that they may fight along side of Chaos, but that they are not Chaos. Not all of them anyway. Which up until recently I was getting from your posts that they were Chaos, not just occasional allies. To that end, Alpha Legion will ally with anyone to accomplish their goals. If creating a Chaos Cult furthers their goals they will create one, if working with the Tau or Dark Eldar will help them they would do the same, that doesn't make them part of the Greater Good. So yes, they work for themselves, but ally with anyone, not just Chaos.
I would agree that they are not apart of the Imperium, the majority anyway. Many are trying to bring it down by any means necessary, but it has been established, that atleast in the Heresy there were Alpha Legionnaires fighting for the Imperium. There is no reason there can't be Alpha Legionnaires doing the same thing now, but having to do it from the outside, or while imitating an Imperial Agency.
Loose affiliation and coordination, doesn't make a Legion united. The Night Lords are loosely affiliated and at times loosely coordinate, but that doesn't make them a unified Legion. Yes they are on a surface level less fragmented than the Emperor's Children and World Eaters, but they are still fragmented. Some of them answer to the 'central command'.
Or it could be more like Hydra, where Baron von Strucker is doing his own thing separate from the group of Hydra that took over SHIELD. Both still trying to take over the world? Yep. Both still Hydra? Yeah. Both working together? Only when they have to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/10 16:56:48
The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
Alpharius wrote: The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
Guys! We've been deceived this whole time! Look below. Also take my exalts. My exalts are Alpharius and Alpharius is the exalts.
Er... I think that makes sense? I feel like trying to figure out the Alpha legion is like trying to find out what happened to Half Life 3. Am I on the mod's list now for figuring out your plans to confuse us?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/03/10 17:03:14
Alpharius wrote: The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
I certainly hope so!
Hey man, that is very personal and very insulting. You are the MOD here, act like one.
I am speaking with conviction and passion with proof if need be.
If you want to get back to the discussion and show me the proof, then be an adult like the rest of us.
There is no game, you are clearly speaking with ego.
Alpharius wrote: The problem with david choe here is, among other things, that he is speaking with an air of authority and expertise that he doesn't actually possess - mostly because it doesn't exist!!
Call it sloppy and lazy writing, call it brilliant, or maybe the writers have just lost their way...
Maybe there's a grand design that will eventually be revealed - the Ultimate Long Game?
I certainly hope so!
Hey man, that is very personal and very insulting. You are the MOD here, act like one.
I am speaking with conviction and passion with proof if need be.
If you want to get back to the discussion and show me the proof, then be an adult like the rest of us.
There is no game, you are clearly speaking with ego.
Why is nobody seeing this?
Nothing he said was that insulting. He's a mod, he knows his rules. People have shown you proof already.
The contradition is in the books, while you think they dedicate themselves to Chaos, they have been shown working against other forces of Chaos. In the Horus Heresy Book 3, Horus is furious to discover the Forge World Alpharius has been sent to take will require Horus to station men there, in order to keep it compliant. He demands an explanation from Alpharius who simply responds "The Devil is not Mocked." Showing the Alpha's are not working in Chaos' best interests (going with the Cabal's abandoning of the Alpha Legion Gambit). The Seventh Serpent show Alpharius hunting his own men for being "loyalists" which would then imply that they have sided with Chaos. Everything about the Legion is contradictions. And in the 41st Millennium next to nothing is known about their goals and operations other than it seems they are against the Imperium, and that they operate in independent Cells that sometimes loosely coordinate with each other.
My position is that the Legion is not a unified as you think, and that they are not as a whole dedicated to the Ruinous Powers. Personally I think all the heads are doing their own thing, some work more closely with others, while others are out on their own.
which is from the books, which are a better source than Lexicanum.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/10 17:03:19
Another question I am curious as I am a bit behind on my BL novels and fluff, is the Cabal still active and do they still have involvement with the Alpha Legion? I know Rowboat killed Alpharius, (plot twist they have Alpharius in the stasis,) however, that leaves Omegon. So... is the cabal still involved with him due to the whole Alpharius accepting it and Omegon not? I know little to jack about the legion.
Edit: I post this and then the page refreshes.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/03/10 18:02:47
Also take my exalts. My exalts are Alpharius and Alpharius is the exalts.
