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Wait are their hammers ST10?

I vote Praetorians.

Hollismason wrote:
Wait are their hammers ST10?

I vote Praetorians.

Yes, because Hammer Hand gives +2 strength.

Problem I can see with Praets is this:

Move 12" away from Paladins.
Fire 5 shots. 0.66(0.167 invis)*0.66(Wound)*0.66(Chance of failed invul)*0.66(Chance of failed FNP)
Whole squad deals one wound without invis and 1/4 of a wound with Invis, Paladins move within 6", make their charge.

Overwatch does another 0.25 wounds.

Praets CQC attacks-
0.50(Hit)*0.66(Wound)*0.66(Chance of Failed invul)*0.66(Chance of failed FNP)
10 Attacks - So 1.4 wounds.
If invisible, (Which they will be), 0.4 Wounds in CQC.

So through all of that, with that 140 point unit, I killed half a Paladin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
Problem I can see with Praets is this:

Move 12" away from Paladins.
Fire 5 shots. 0.66(0.167 invis)*0.66(Wound)*0.66(Chance of failed invul)*0.66(Chance of failed FNP)
Whole squad deals one wound without invis and 1/4 of a wound with Invis, Paladins move within 6", make their charge.

Overwatch does another 0.25 wounds.

Praets CQC attacks-
0.50(Hit)*0.66(Wound)*0.66(Chance of Failed invul)*0.66(Chance of failed FNP)
10 Attacks - So 1.4 wounds.
If invisible, (Which they will be), 0.4 Wounds in CQC.

So through all of that, with that 140 point unit, I killed half a Paladin.

Even with the tarpit effect, the Paladins are going to wipe the Praets in the turn they charge and next turn be in some other poor unit.

That's why you tie them up with Wraiths. Neither of them are going to be doing much of anything to each other, so you can focus on taking out the rest of his army.

 skoffs wrote:
That's why you tie them up with Wraiths. Neither of them are going to be doing much of anything to each other, so you can focus on taking out the rest of his army.

Did the math.
The Wraiths attack first, attacking 12 times on the charge, doing 0.43 wounds if the PaladinStar isn't invisible and 0.14 wounds if the PaladinStar is invisible. The Paladins are going to attack 25 times on the charge (2 attacks base, Nemesis Banner, Charge + Librarian), doing 2.79 Instant Death wounds (Hammerhand), which will bring the Wraiths down to 1 Wraith remaining or sweep them.

So Wraiths are also ineffective as a tarpit.

It's possible to charge them with a useless unit first, then hitting them with Wraiths, but this will waste more points for at most 1 game turn of no Star.

 Verviedi wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
That's why you tie them up with Wraiths. Neither of them are going to be doing much of anything to each other, so you can focus on taking out the rest of his army.

Did the math.
The Wraiths attack first, attacking 12 times on the charge, doing 0.43 wounds if the PaladinStar isn't invisible and 0.14 wounds if the PaladinStar is invisible. The Paladins are going to attack 25 times on the charge (2 attacks base, Nemesis Banner, Charge + Librarian), doing 2.79 Instant Death wounds (Hammerhand), which will bring the Wraiths down to 1 Wraith remaining or sweep them.

So Wraiths are also ineffective as a tarpit.

It's possible to charge them with a useless unit first, then hitting them with Wraiths, but this will waste more points for at most 1 game turn of no Star.

Why are you comparing the math for 3 wraiths vs the 6 paladins? 6 Wraith are more than sufficient for a tarpit in most cases. Especially if they have access to RP

Fragile wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
That's why you tie them up with Wraiths. Neither of them are going to be doing much of anything to each other, so you can focus on taking out the rest of his army.

Did the math.
The Wraiths attack first, attacking 12 times on the charge, doing 0.43 wounds if the PaladinStar isn't invisible and 0.14 wounds if the PaladinStar is invisible. The Paladins are going to attack 25 times on the charge (2 attacks base, Nemesis Banner, Charge + Librarian), doing 2.79 Instant Death wounds (Hammerhand), which will bring the Wraiths down to 1 Wraith remaining or sweep them.

So Wraiths are also ineffective as a tarpit.

It's possible to charge them with a useless unit first, then hitting them with Wraiths, but this will waste more points for at most 1 game turn of no Star.

Why are you comparing the math for 3 wraiths vs the 6 paladins? 6 Wraith are more than sufficient for a tarpit in most cases. Especially if they have access to RP

Because I only have 3 Wraiths, and they're ridiculously pricey.

You only have 3 Wraiths?
Damn, man, I thought we were talking about Decurion Harvest Wraiths.
Yeah, if you've only got 3, don't even bother taking them.

Depending on the Centstar, Tarpit might not be an option since they can Gate out of it as well.

I think a large unit of wraiths can tarpit them indefinitely.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think a large unit of wraiths can tarpit them indefinitely.

...Unless they have Gate.

OrikanStar could probably tarpit it.
3++ invulnerable save that re-rolls ones would be tough to get through.

4+ FnP too. Sounds hard to budge.

Provided no GoI of course

 Frozocrone wrote:
OrikanStar could probably tarpit it.
3++ invulnerable save that re-rolls ones would be tough to get through.

4+ FnP too. Sounds hard to budge.

Provided no GoI of course

Composition of OrikanStar?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think a large unit of wraiths can tarpit them indefinitely.

...Unless they have Gate.

They won't. 100% if the time they roll on invisibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
You only have 3 Wraiths?
Damn, man, I thought we were talking about Decurion Harvest Wraiths.
Yeah, if you've only got 3, don't even bother taking them.

I run them in a Harvest.

 Verviedi wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
OrikanStar could probably tarpit it.
3++ invulnerable save that re-rolls ones would be tough to get through.

4+ FnP too. Sounds hard to budge.

Provided no GoI of course

Composition of OrikanStar?

Orikan the Diviner with Shield Lychguard. 3++ rerolling 1s, 4+ Reanimate. If a Decurion, that's a 4+ RP even against ID. Usually have Warscythe characters added in as well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think a large unit of wraiths can tarpit them indefinitely.

...Unless they have Gate.

They won't. 100% if the time they roll on invisibility.

If it includes Draigo (which, after the success at LVO, many will now), he has Gate innately. No need to roll.

Requizen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
OrikanStar could probably tarpit it.
3++ invulnerable save that re-rolls ones would be tough to get through.

4+ FnP too. Sounds hard to budge.

Provided no GoI of course

Composition of OrikanStar?

Orikan the Diviner with Shield Lychguard. 3++ rerolling 1s, 4+ Reanimate. If a Decurion, that's a 4+ RP even against ID. Usually have Warscythe characters added in as well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think a large unit of wraiths can tarpit them indefinitely.

...Unless they have Gate.

They won't. 100% if the time they roll on invisibility.

If it includes Draigo (which, after the success at LVO, many will now), he has Gate innately. No need to roll.

Oh, and my opponent doesn't have Draigo.

How many Lychguard should I include?
Is this good?

5x Lychguard w/ Sword and Board
Orikan
Warscythe Overlord w/ Phase Shifter
Warscythe Lord w/ Phase Shifter
Warscythe Overlord w/ Phase Shifter

About 500-600 points IIRC, so matches PaladinStar. Let's do the math!
Lychguard do 0.1 wounds on the charge, Warscythe characters do 0.65 wounds, and Orikan does 0.09.
In return, the Paladins do 1.6 Instant Death attacks on the charge or Counter Attacking.
Hmmm.... About 3? Turns of Tarpit... Sounds pretty good.

Go ten, you can look out sir on 2+

EDIT: I also got 1.2 wounds outside decurion, 0.9 inside it suffered on the Lychguard

 Verviedi wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
OrikanStar could probably tarpit it.
3++ invulnerable save that re-rolls ones would be tough to get through.

4+ FnP too. Sounds hard to budge.

Provided no GoI of course

Composition of OrikanStar?

Orikan the Diviner with Shield Lychguard. 3++ rerolling 1s, 4+ Reanimate. If a Decurion, that's a 4+ RP even against ID. Usually have Warscythe characters added in as well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think a large unit of wraiths can tarpit them indefinitely.

...Unless they have Gate.

They won't. 100% if the time they roll on invisibility.

If it includes Draigo (which, after the success at LVO, many will now), he has Gate innately. No need to roll.

Oh, and my opponent doesn't have Draigo.

How many Lychguard should I include?
Is this good?

5x Lychguard w/ Sword and Board
Orikan
Warscythe Overlord w/ Phase Shifter
Warscythe Lord w/ Phase Shifter
Warscythe Overlord w/ Phase Shifter

About 500-600 points IIRC, so matches PaladinStar. Let's do the math!
Lychguard do 0.1 wounds on the charge, Warscythe characters do 0.65 wounds, and Orikan does 0.09.
In return, the Paladins do 1.6 Instant Death attacks on the charge or Counter Attacking.
Hmmm.... About 3? Turns of Tarpit... Sounds pretty good.

You only need 5 Lychguard. Take Orikan and an Overlord with a warscythe (no need for phase shifter) and a Veil of darkness and a Lord with a staff of light (no phase shifter). Keep the characters out of base so he can't assign wounds to them and don't accept challenges (let the lord with the staff of light watch) You will have Orikan at AP 2 and the OLord with AP 2, that is plenty. The lord with Staff of light is so you don't get shot when you use the veil. You can also throw in whoever the Olord was from the Reclaimation legion as well. Don't use a CCB, it will just cost you points and frustration. Plus that Olord will also let you reroll your 1's on the RP for the lychguard. Assault the deathstar with something you can afford to lose that will keep him in combat to his assault phase at a minimum and veil in the Orikan-star and assault the following turn. You shouldn't lose because you have a 95% save rate and with all the AP2 from 2-3 characters, you should be doing 1-2 wounds per turn.

Then, the rest of your army should have no problem wiping out his force.

Honestly, its been said AD-Nauseum...
Go after the rest of his army.

With a halfway decent list, it should take 3-4 turns to do that, then play objectives.
turn 1, land raider with termies inside (now they have to footslog, and can be avoided.)
turn 2, Dredknight (Fast Assault threat)
turn 3, 5 man spurifiers, drednought (ranged fire base)
turn 4 10 man strikes (Last things that have obsec)
turn 5, avoid deathstar some more.
Win

Verviedi wrote:
Here's what happened in the last game I played. We did alternate deployment.
I deployed my Lychguard and Scarabs at the far left of the board to match his Land Raider's deployment, and placed everything else in the middle or left corner. He deployed the Dreadnought on a roof, the Strike Squad as far up as possible on the right side of the table, and his Purifiers in the middle near an objective.

I fed the Lychguard and Scarabs to the PaladinStar, keeping it on the other side of the board from anything useful all game. I put a Doomsday ark on Objective 1 in my corner, with LoS to objective 2. Turn 1 was basically pointless. He went first and moved everything. I killed 2 Strike Squad guys with the Ghost Ark, and a bolter Purifier died to Dangerous Terrain.
Turn 2 was disastrous. My Command barge was instagibbed by a Dreadnought lascannon, my Ghost Ark was immobilized and Weapon Destroyed by a Psycannon, and my Lychguard were wiped by Paladins. My Warriors and Gark shot at the Strike Squad and killed 3.
Turn 3, the NDK dropped in behind my Ghost Ark and glanced it to death. The Strike squad charged the Warriors, and killed all but 2, taking one loss. I fed the Scarabs to the Paladins, and my Wraiths got locked in combat by the Dreadnought. They did 2 HP of damage and didn't take any losses.
Turn 4 the NDK took my objective by charging the DDA and killing it. My Night Scythe and Doom Scythe finally arrived, and killed the Purifiers.
Turn 5 the Strike Squad killed the last Warriors. My Wraiths charged them, and killed ~4 Strikers. I dropped Immortals on the objective the Purifiers had held, capping it.

I lost 6-4 (Linebreaker, Objective (4) ) - (Slay The Warlord, First Blood, Objective, Linebreaker)

Just a quick question...how did he manage to instagib your CCB with a lascannon? I'm not used to GK, but aren't their lascannon S9 like all the others?

Lascannons can pen AV13, though one shot taking it down is certainly lucky. Ought to put those lascannon wounds on the rider next time -- we can still do that, right?

Well Unless your matching the star just run from it, shooting isn't too dangerous and unless he deep strikes close (which means he can kill himself if unlucky) you can usually run away and return fire.

Drakmord wrote:
Lascannons can pen AV13, though one shot taking it down is certainly lucky. Ought to put those lascannon wounds on the rider next time -- we can still do that, right?

That's what I thought...usually you take all the S8+ shot on the Olord, and I couldn't figure out how he died from 1 lascannon passing the 4++/5+++ and taking off 3W

 Javorra wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
Lascannons can pen AV13, though one shot taking it down is certainly lucky. Ought to put those lascannon wounds on the rider next time -- we can still do that, right?

That's what I thought...usually you take all the S8+ shot on the Olord, and I couldn't figure out how he died from 1 lascannon passing the 4++/5+++ and taking off 3W

He went through the process so fast I didn't have a chance to allocate to the overlord -_-
Rarrr

Well, you have the right to allocate the wounds in the shooting phase, so even if he runs too fast, just tell him at the very end you're goin to take them with the Olord and roll your saves

Haha yeah he can roll to pen all he wants - it's your right (and the correct decision) to allocate to the overlord.

Shame you don't have more Wraiths - they're awesome. They would probably be the best bet to deal with the paladins, but Orikan star Lychguard (with a lord thrown in there for good measure) does wonders. Orikan is a nasty dude once he's empowered, and a destroyer lord is T6 and can get a res orb for 4+ RP for the unit. Plus if you give the lord the nightmare shroud, you can laugh at him as he has to shoot at a model with a 2+ re-rollable save, followed by a 4+ RP (which is also re-rollable once per game)

Let's do some math. If you want to go ultra tarpit status, you skip the shroud on the lord and give him a 4++ and an orb of eternity (as this will allow you to still take a 4+ RP even in the face of instant death).

So Paladins have 3 attacks on the charge (4 with the banner that he should be bringing but isn't for some reason) and in a squad of 10 you can have 4 hammers right? Say you have an independent character in there with a hammer also, like a librarian (because you really should) and the Libby should also have 4 attacks on the charge.

The 6 Paladins who don't have hammers should have falchions, since that gives +1 Attack. So 6 Paladins w/5 attacks each at WS 5. 20 hits (he probably isn't casting prescience since he is doing invis, though he could and should but whatever) and that would be 17.333 wounds. You save on 3++ and re-roll 1's, so that would be 3.84 unsaved wounds. BUT WAIT! You have 4+ RP, so that's 1.9 wounds. BUT WAIT! You have a res orb, so that's 0.95 wounds

The 4 Paladins plus Libby (all with hammers) will have 20 attacks, so 13.33 hits, 11.5 wounds. 2.5 unsaved wounds. These are all instant death, so your first Reanimation protocol roll is 5+ (the orb only affects the re-roll IIRC) which means you have 1.7 unsaved wounds. Then that would be 0.85 unsaved wounds after you pop the relic res orb.

All said and done, he has killed....2 models if he is lucky. When he gets the charge. If you took a wound on Orikan (who is somehow eternal warrior LOL) you may have lost only 1 model. If you took two wounds on the lord, you may have lost no one. The tarpit is REAL.

Now that I think about it, it's probably worth taking the 2+ armor on the lord, not just for shooting but because the regular force weapons on the grey Knights are AP 3 and 2+ re-rollable saves are hilarious when you're playing against someone like that guy. I give him a nice warscythe for some AP 2 weaponry. He also gives the whole unit preferred enemy (but you won't be killing many Paladins with those AP 3 weapons)

 luke1705 wrote:
Haha yeah he can roll to pen all he wants - it's your right (and the correct decision) to allocate to the overlord.

Shame you don't have more Wraiths - they're awesome. They would probably be the best bet to deal with the paladins, but Orikan star Lychguard (with a lord thrown in there for good measure) does wonders. Orikan is a nasty dude once he's empowered, and a destroyer lord is T6 and can get a res orb for 4+ RP for the unit. Plus if you give the lord the nightmare shroud, you can laugh at him as he has to shoot at a model with a 2+ re-rollable save, followed by a 4+ RP (which is also re-rollable once per game)

Let's do some math. If you want to go ultra tarpit status, you skip the shroud on the lord and give him a 4++ and an orb of eternity (as this will allow you to still take a 4+ RP even in the face of instant death).

So Paladins have 3 attacks on the charge (4 with the banner that he should be bringing but isn't for some reason) and in a squad of 10 you can have 4 hammers right? Say you have an independent character in there with a hammer also, like a librarian (because you really should) and the Libby should also have 4 attacks on the charge.

The 6 Paladins who don't have hammers should have falchions, since that gives +1 Attack. So 6 Paladins w/5 attacks each at WS 5. 20 hits (he probably isn't casting prescience since he is doing invis, though he could and should but whatever) and that would be 17.333 wounds. You save on 3++ and re-roll 1's, so that would be 3.84 unsaved wounds. BUT WAIT! You have 4+ RP, so that's 1.9 wounds. BUT WAIT! You have a res orb, so that's 0.95 wounds

The 4 Paladins plus Libby (all with hammers) will have 20 attacks, so 13.33 hits, 11.5 wounds. 2.5 unsaved wounds. These are all instant death, so your first Reanimation protocol roll is 5+ (the orb only affects the re-roll IIRC) which means you have 1.7 unsaved wounds. Then that would be 0.85 unsaved wounds after you pop the relic res orb.

All said and done, he has killed....2 models if he is lucky. When he gets the charge. If you took a wound on Orikan (who is somehow eternal warrior LOL) you may have lost only 1 model. If you took two wounds on the lord, you may have lost no one. The tarpit is REAL.

Now that I think about it, it's probably worth taking the 2+ armor on the lord, not just for shooting but because the regular force weapons on the grey Knights are AP 3 and 2+ re-rollable saves are hilarious when you're playing against someone like that guy. I give him a nice warscythe for some AP 2 weaponry. He also gives the whole unit preferred enemy (but you won't be killing many Paladins with those AP 3 weapons)

He's bringing the Nemesis Banner, which gives +1 attack.
There are 5 Paladins and 1 Libby, all with Daemonhammers, a Narcethium, and the Nemesis Banner.

Just note that the model with the banner can't have a Daemonhammer

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just note that the model with the banner can't have a Daemonhammer

I'll tell my opponent.

Does he not own his own codex n addition to not owning the rulebook?

greytalon666 wrote:
Does he not own his own codex n addition to not owning the rulebook?

He owns it (The GK Codex), just doesn't read it at any time except games.