Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have an opponent who runs GK PaladinStar.
It looks something like this:
ML3 Terminator Librarian rolling on Telepathy (Daemonhammer)
Paladin (Apothecary) (Daemonhammer)
Paladin (Nemesis Banner) (Daemonhammer)
Paladin (Psycannon) (Daemonhammer)
Paladin (Daemonhammer)
Paladin (Daemonhammer)
Land Raider Redeemer

I did the math on it, and it would take about 9,000 points of Warriors and 10,000 points of Guardsmen to kill because invisibility.

This is the rest of his list.

NDK w/ Doomhammer and Heavy Psycannon

5x Purifiers (Daemonhammers, Psycannon)

10x Strike Squad (Daemonhammers, 2x Psilencer)

1x Venerable Dreadnought (Las/Powerfist)

What would the best way to beat this list with Necrons/Tau be? We always play Eternal War missions.

Swarm him with Warriors or Wraiths. Especially with formations, Necrons are hard to kill. Stay out of CC with his knights and just shoot them, Triarch Stalkers are great due to their +1 BS bonus.

Also, in EW missions, try to play to the objectives. They lack a lot of units, so killing 1 squad hurts a lot.

First turn is huge. If you can't go first, deploy defensively so he can't land/shoot most of your army. If you can make him mishap, all the better.

I have a peep who plays an almost identical list - and another who runs the centstar with Draigo and friends. In both cases I focus on everything BUT the star. Running a pair of DKs? Time for the wraiths to go to work. Running a strike squad? There's a job for the destroyers. Beyond that just play to the mission. Eventually you're buddy will be left with the star and if you're a little lucky he will have periled away gate or invisibility Each of those happened in two games I played - one guy periled and blew up his libby thus losing invis and the other periled and lost invisibility as a power. If invis goes that's when to focus fire - even if it fails for one turn - shoot the crap out of them and then continue focusing on the mission.

I wonder if the Triarch Stalker and Praetorian formation would be a solid choice against GK? Rods of the Covenant on resilient bodies seem like a solid counter to 2+ save models. Against a dreadknight, assuming your stalker is still alive, you'll get rerolls to hit and wound in the shooting phase.

Praetorians would murder against this list, but it would be dangerous since they would have to dish out enough wounds to kill the Paladins, or at least enough to cripple them, at I2 or risk being annihilated themselves at I1 since the hammers give AP2 which leaves them with only a 6+(5+ in decurion) RP save.

I'm not sure how many points this is but for 1850 here's a couple balanced lists that would be effective against GKs.

Decurion:
Zahndrekh
5x Immortals
10x Warriors
10x Warriors
6x Tomb Blades w/ gauss, shields, neb
Aux:
Canoptek Harvest w/ minimum units and whip coils
Canoptek Harvest w/ minimum units and whip coils
Destroyer Cult:
Lord w/ warscythe, phase shifter, nightmare shroud, phylactery
3x Heavy Destroyers
2x Destroyers w/ 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Destroyers w/ 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Destroyers w/ 1x Heavy Destroyer

Another possible list that trades Wraiths for Judicator and more Tomb Blades would be:

Decurion:
Zahndrekh
5x Immortals
10x Warriors
10x Warriors
5x Tomb Blades w/ shields, gauss, neb
5x Tomb Blades w/ shields, gauss, neb
Destroyer Cult: Same as above except no Phylactery
Judicator Batallion: minimum size with Rods.

Each list has a fair amount of AP2 in the form of Heavy Destroyers (also has the benifit of instant killing paladins). The Wraith list is more defensive, providing tarpits to tie up his units while you control the board. The Praetorians and Stalker list would be more offensive, trying to kill as much as possible before reaching assault, but still capable of winning an assault if necessary.

Zahndrekh can provide you a warlord trait to improve your reserve rolls if you decide to deep strike the destroyers or praetorians, or taking the Zealot trait to prevent your warriors from being swept in combat. He's just an all around useful character. A bargelord would get absolutely destroyed against GKs, or at least be effectively useless due to the need to avoid melee. Zahndrekh can at least hide in combat or let the Destroyer Lord do all the talking for him while still providing his buff.

I play both armies and I think you'll have a hard time.
His death star is rather slow and cannot be everywhere.
Therefore, I'd opt for a fast moving army.
It should have enough Fire power to take down the rest of his force.

That GK list is garbage (and illegal). It has all the problems of regular Tac Termies, only on PA and chosen intentionally. A NSF that doesn't Deep Strike? Next to no Psycannons? Psilencers on Strikers? Strikers?

Seems like the GK player needs tips on list building (Paladin with Banner gives up his melee option, so can't take a Hammer). How you as a Necron player are having issues is beyond me. Necron Gauss weaponry will flay the Hull Points off the slow and expensive Land Raider, and the paper thin Dreadnought. Since all if his units except for the DK and the DN strike at initiative 1 due to going full re-re on the Daemonhammers, your base units hit first in CC. This means you have better shooters, better hitters, and more of them than your opponent. All you need to do is break his Redeemer and ignore the Paladins while mopping up the remaining units and playing the mission. That's an auto-win for the Robot Overlords.

Tell me why you are having trouble tabling him by turn 3?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
That GK list is garbage (and illegal). It has all the problems of regular Tac Termies, only on PA and chosen intentionally. A NSF that doesn't Deep Strike? Next to no Psycannons? Psilencers on Strikers? Strikers?

Seems like the GK player needs tips on list building (Paladin with Banner gives up his melee option, so can't take a Hammer). How you as a Necron player are having issues is beyond me. Necron Gauss weaponry will flay the Hull Points off the slow and expensive Land Raider, and the paper thin Dreadnought. Since all if his units except for the DK and the DN strike at initiative 1 due to going full re-re on the Daemonhammers, your base units hit first in CC. This means you have better shooters, better hitters, and more of them than your opponent. All you need to do is break his Redeemer and ignore the Paladins while mopping up the remaining units and playing the mission. That's an auto-win for the Robot Overlords.

Tell me why you are having trouble tabling him by turn 3?

SJ

Here's what happened in the last game I played. We did alternate deployment.
I deployed my Lychguard and Scarabs at the far left of the board to match his Land Raider's deployment, and placed everything else in the middle or left corner. He deployed the Dreadnought on a roof, the Strike Squad as far up as possible on the right side of the table, and his Purifiers in the middle near an objective.

I fed the Lychguard and Scarabs to the PaladinStar, keeping it on the other side of the board from anything useful all game. I put a Doomsday ark on Objective 1 in my corner, with LoS to objective 2. Turn 1 was basically pointless. He went first and moved everything. I killed 2 Strike Squad guys with the Ghost Ark, and a bolter Purifier died to Dangerous Terrain.
Turn 2 was disastrous. My Command barge was instagibbed by a Dreadnought lascannon, my Ghost Ark was immobilized and Weapon Destroyed by a Psycannon, and my Lychguard were wiped by Paladins. My Warriors and Gark shot at the Strike Squad and killed 3.
Turn 3, the NDK dropped in behind my Ghost Ark and glanced it to death. The Strike squad charged the Warriors, and killed all but 2, taking one loss. I fed the Scarabs to the Paladins, and my Wraiths got locked in combat by the Dreadnought. They did 2 HP of damage and didn't take any losses.
Turn 4 the NDK took my objective by charging the DDA and killing it. My Night Scythe and Doom Scythe finally arrived, and killed the Purifiers.
Turn 5 the Strike Squad killed the last Warriors. My Wraiths charged them, and killed ~4 Strikers. I dropped Immortals on the objective the Purifiers had held, capping it.

I lost 6-4 (Linebreaker, Objective (4) ) - (Slay The Warlord, First Blood, Objective, Linebreaker)

I see. Next time, you might want to ignore the Deathstar (its useless outside of melee), at most kite it, but in general just stay away from it. Shoot everything else. If you can, mob the DK with expendable cheap filler, and send your actual melee units after his PAs. You have more units than he does, so should be playing to the mission while hunting his soft units and neutralizing his hard units.

Your mistake was to get into assault with his assault units when it was advantages for him, not you. Better luck, and better planning next time!

Also, make sure his list is legal. Minor errors in a list won't effect a game, but major "errors" will. It is up to you to not lose before the game has even started, so fact check your opponent's list!

SJ

Like I said above...ignore the star and kill everything else (unless he blows invisibility - than maybe try spending one turn shooting the crap out of him)...and play to the mission.

P.S. It is pretty funny he only has 1 psycannon in the star. My buddy who runs one usually has at least three that I can remember.

 necron99 wrote:
Like I said above...ignore the star and kill everything else (unless he blows invisibility - than maybe try spending one turn shooting the crap out of him)...and play to the mission.

P.S. It is pretty funny he only has 1 psycannon in the star. My buddy who runs one usually has at least three that I can remember.

That GK list posted above is built right out of the GK Strike Force set sold by GW, which contains some very poor a selections from the GK Dex. Add to that the very poor thought that went into what those models should built as, the OP GKT an opponent was a very poorly optimized list that is also slightly illegal. Could be mis-remembering, could be spot on, doesn't matter. Fact is, getting wrecked and massecured by such a garbage GK is pretty interesting to dissect, because it should not have happened that way.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
Like I said above...ignore the star and kill everything else (unless he blows invisibility - than maybe try spending one turn shooting the crap out of him)...and play to the mission.

P.S. It is pretty funny he only has 1 psycannon in the star. My buddy who runs one usually has at least three that I can remember.

That GK list posted above is built right out of the GK Strike Force set sold by GW, which contains some very poor a selections from the GK Dex. Add to that the very poor thought that went into what those models should built as, the OP GKT an opponent was a very poorly optimized list that is also slightly illegal. Could be mis-remembering, could be spot on, doesn't matter. Fact is, getting wrecked and massecured by such a garbage GK is pretty interesting to dissect, because it should not have happened that way.

SJ

Would you be willing to dissect the "battle report" I posted and explain what went wrong?

In any case, I'd not play that guy. Invisibility is broken, and someone playing a generic GK deathstar and adding that to it shouldn't be your friend anymore.

Would you be willing to dissect the "battle report" I posted and explain what went wrong?

I did. I'll repost it:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I see. Next time, you might want to ignore the Deathstar (its useless outside of melee), at most kite it, but in general just stay away from it. Shoot everything else. If you can, mob the DK with expendable cheap filler, and send your actual melee units after his PAs. You have more units than he does, so should be playing to the mission while hunting his soft units and neutralizing his hard units.

Your mistake was to get into assault with his assault units when it was advantages for him, not you. Better luck, and better planning next time!

Also, make sure his list is legal. Minor errors in a list won't effect a game, but major "errors" will. It is up to you to not lose before the game has even started, so fact check your opponent's list!

SJ

I could do a point by point, but why bother when your opponent was cheating and my general advice covers your initial errors.

SJ

 krodarklorr wrote:
In any case, I'd not play that guy. Invisibility is broken, and someone playing a generic GK deathstar and adding that to it shouldn't be your friend anymore.

Yah. I've been talking about how in invisibility is broken for 2 games now, and I severely doubt he'll stop.

If you haven't read any of my other posts about beating this guy, he's one of my only regular opponents and I onky get about 1 game a week.

Play Flyrants again. Roll for Psychic Scream.

Watch him cry. Drink...no bathe in the tears.

He seems to have no problem bringing broken stuff to games, stick it back to him.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Play Flyrants again. Roll for Psychic Scream.

Watch him cry. Drink...no bathe in the tears.

He seems to have no problem bringing broken stuff to games, stick it back to him.

That is the worst advice I have seen. Lets go over the psychic defense....

Decent amount of WC
Base DtW on a 6+
ML3 so we move it to 4+
Ad. Will if he keeps the Libby staff 3+
Re-roll 1s

There is one thing you do not want to do against GK, and that is kill them with witchfires.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Play Flyrants again. Roll for Psychic Scream.

Watch him cry. Drink...no bathe in the tears.

He seems to have no problem bringing broken stuff to games, stick it back to him.

One of my Flyrants is in Texas, and the rest are in other random states. Sadly I needed money and had to let them go.

Quickjager wrote:That is the worst advice I have seen. Lets go over the psychic defense....

Decent amount of WC
Base DtW on a 6+
ML3 so we move it to 4+
Ad. Will if he keeps the Libby staff 3+
Re-roll 1s

There is one thing you do not want to do against GK, and that is kill them with witchfires.

Yeah, I should have been a bit more clear. Be conservative with dice and bait him to use dice against Catalyst/Paroxysm, then roll for Scream. At the very least, you'll have dice to counter their powers and won't be locked in combat since you're normally swooping.

Verviedi wrote:One of my Flyrants is in Texas, and the rest are in other random states. Sadly I needed money and had to let them go.

Alas, that is a shame. You'll probably have to look at AP2 stuff then. Doomsday Ark on Skyshield? Heavy Destroyers? I think they have enough strength to cancel FnP. Praetorians/Stalkers could also put in a decent shift.

EDIT: I've just noticed he uses a Land Raider. If he transports them in it, make sure he doesn't use invisibility while inside as that's a big no-no according to RAW.

 Frozocrone wrote:

Quickjager wrote:That is the worst advice I have seen. Lets go over the psychic defense....

Decent amount of WC
Base DtW on a 6+
ML3 so we move it to 4+
Ad. Will if he keeps the Libby staff 3+
Re-roll 1s

There is one thing you do not want to do against GK, and that is kill them with witchfires.

Yeah, I should have been a bit more clear. Be conservative with dice and bait him to use dice against Catalyst/Paroxysm, then roll for Scream. At the very least, you'll have dice to counter their powers and won't be locked in combat since you're normally swooping.

Verviedi wrote:One of my Flyrants is in Texas, and the rest are in other random states. Sadly I needed money and had to let them go.

Alas, that is a shame. You'll probably have to look at AP2 stuff then. Doomsday Ark on Skyshield? Heavy Destroyers? I think they have enough strength to cancel FnP. Praetorians/Stalkers could also put in a decent shift.

EDIT: I've just noticed he uses a Land Raider. If he transports them in it, make sure he doesn't use invisibility while inside as that's a big no-no according to RAW.

Response to post:
I use a DDA every game, but I have a problem with Invis preventing blast targeting.
Reponse to edit:
He is aware of that.

You could target something close to it and hope it scatters onto the unit. That's legal and how I might deal with it.

You could also tarpit it now that I think about it, provided they don't roll GoI. Lychguard with shields are tough to break down.

Just take Conclave of the Burning One with Nightbringer or just bring Nightbringer to the game.

His ability doesn't roll to hit he just picks a unit.

Praetorians would work.

 Verviedi wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
In any case, I'd not play that guy. Invisibility is broken, and someone playing a generic GK deathstar and adding that to it shouldn't be your friend anymore.

Yah. I've been talking about how in invisibility is broken for 2 games now, and I severely doubt he'll stop.

If you haven't read any of my other posts about beating this guy, he's one of my only regular opponents and I onky get about 1 game a week.

I would probably bring the Doom Scythe Formation, and both Ctan shards. Lots of LD penalties.

 Frozocrone wrote:
You could target something close to it and hope it scatters onto the unit. That's legal and how I might deal with it.

You could also tarpit it now that I think about it, provided they don't roll GoI. Lychguard with shields are tough to break down.

Mmm yes... I was planning on buying more Lychguard anyway to convert a set of Assassins...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
In any case, I'd not play that guy. Invisibility is broken, and someone playing a generic GK deathstar and adding that to it shouldn't be your friend anymore.

Yah. I've been talking about how in invisibility is broken for 2 games now, and I severely doubt he'll stop.

If you haven't read any of my other posts about beating this guy, he's one of my only regular opponents and I onky get about 1 game a week.

I would probably bring the Doom Scythe Formation, and both Ctan shards. Lots of LD penalties.

I have 2 Doom Scythes, so it wouldn't hurt my army that much. I'll try it

Take 3 Necron pylons. Bathe in his tears as you cause over 9,000 str 10 ap 2 (or is it 1?) hits to the unit and don't care about invis as it targets points on the battlefield, not the unit. He won't be fielding that star any time you use he pylons

Mordaem wrote:
Praetorians would murder against this list, but it would be dangerous since they would have to dish out enough wounds to kill the Paladins, or at least enough to cripple them, at I2 or risk being annihilated themselves at I1 since the hammers give AP2 which leaves them with only a 6+(5+ in decurion) RP save.

Hammers are S8 if you throw all your warp charge dice in negating his Hammerhand, in which case you keep your 4+ decurion WBB.

Also, bring all your flyers.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Mordaem wrote:
Praetorians would murder against this list, but it would be dangerous since they would have to dish out enough wounds to kill the Paladins, or at least enough to cripple them, at I2 or risk being annihilated themselves at I1 since the hammers give AP2 which leaves them with only a 6+(5+ in decurion) RP save.

Hammers are S8 if you throw all your warp charge dice in negating his Hammerhand, in which case you keep your 4+ decurion WBB.

Also, bring all your flyers.

In which case he just rolls for Force instead of hammerhand and accomplishes the same thing.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

Mordaem wrote:
Praetorians would murder against this list, but it would be dangerous since they would have to dish out enough wounds to kill the Paladins, or at least enough to cripple them, at I2 or risk being annihilated themselves at I1 since the hammers give AP2 which leaves them with only a 6+(5+ in decurion) RP save.

Hammers are S8 if you throw all your warp charge dice in negating his Hammerhand, in which case you keep your 4+ decurion WBB.

Also, bring all your flyers.

In which case he just rolls for Force instead of hammerhand and accomplishes the same thing.

He doesn't own a rulebook, so he doesn't know Force exists.

*insert obligatory "how does he play the game if he doesn't own a rulebook" here*

That mandatory comment aside, you're not going to reliably be able to tarpit a unit like that without a very good invulnerable save (a la wraiths w/Orikan or sword and board Lychguard).

The issue with those units is that they don't have enough AP 2 to kill out the terminators reliably, and with the Lychguard even though you go first, you don't have enough attacks to neuter them since you have to sacrifice durability for offense or vice versa.

You can kite around and kill the rest of his army, or try and tarpit the squad for a few turns, but you really need 2 wraith squads to do that, or two large Lychguard squads