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TiamatRoar wrote:
During the Age of Apostacy the mechanicum mostly tried to stay away from the madness. They didn't threaten to break away from the Imperium, at least, not by themselves. When the Fabricator General at the time finally couldn't stand it anymore, he didn't say "Stop that crap Vandire, or else the mechanicum will leave." He instead said "Stop that!", Vandire said "No." and then he said "Hey every member of the Imperium that's not an evil idiot, join me and let's take down this jackass." (which was probably the more correct action to take)

Furyou Miko wrote:Not quite. The Mechanicum, Imperial Fists, Soul Drinkers, Fire Hawks and Black Templars moved against Vandire after he hung the rest of the High Lords as traitors.

I knew there was something. So civil war instead of secession then. But I'm pretty sure Vandire demanded they renounce the Omnissiah and accept the God-Emperor was in there somewhere, too.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The Fabricator General post-heresy is a High Lord of Terra, so he could overrule pretty much anyone besides another High Lord.

Pre-heresy, there was only one Fabricator General, Kelbor Hal. I'm not aware of him interacting with the primarchs very often, but when he "interacted" with Horus to join Horus in the Heresy, it was more as an ally than a subordinate as far as I can tell (with Horus promising him access to forbidden tech that the Emperor would not allow)

During the Age of Apostacy the mechanicum mostly tried to stay away from the madness. They didn't threaten to break away from the Imperium, at least, not by themselves. When the Fabricator General at the time finally couldn't stand it anymore, he didn't say "Stop that crap Vandire, or else the mechanicum will leave." He instead said "Stop that!", Vandire said "No." and then he said "Hey every member of the Imperium that's not an evil idiot, join me and let's take down this jackass." (which was probably the more correct action to take)

Well, post heresy, werent the remaining loyalist primarchs also basically high lords of terra.

I'm agreeing mostly. I think the Fab General is close to the authority of a primarch. Very few people would be able to tell either to do much of anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
the admech, like many MANY other orginizations in the IoM don't nesscarily have a set number of powers neatly tied up in a bow. the admech does have certin rights and expectations, laid out in their original treaty with the Emperor, but the full extent of their power is going to also depend, heavily, on (like any another big shot faction in the IoM) the influance they can bring to bear.

but UNLIKE ALL other organizations in the IoM, the Ad Mech predate the IoM. They signed a treaty with the Emperor. All other organizations were created by the emperor, or created by the High Lords of Terra after big E went to sleep.

 Exergy wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
The Fabricator General post-heresy is a High Lord of Terra, so he could overrule pretty much anyone besides another High Lord.

Pre-heresy, there was only one Fabricator General, Kelbor Hal. I'm not aware of him interacting with the primarchs very often, but when he "interacted" with Horus to join Horus in the Heresy, it was more as an ally than a subordinate as far as I can tell (with Horus promising him access to forbidden tech that the Emperor would not allow)

During the Age of Apostacy the mechanicum mostly tried to stay away from the madness. They didn't threaten to break away from the Imperium, at least, not by themselves. When the Fabricator General at the time finally couldn't stand it anymore, he didn't say "Stop that crap Vandire, or else the mechanicum will leave." He instead said "Stop that!", Vandire said "No." and then he said "Hey every member of the Imperium that's not an evil idiot, join me and let's take down this jackass." (which was probably the more correct action to take)

Well, post heresy, werent the remaining loyalist primarchs also basically high lords of terra.

I'm agreeing mostly. I think the Fab General is close to the authority of a primarch. Very few people would be able to tell either to do much of anything.

Oh, sorry, yea, I forgot there was a period post-heresy where High Lords AND Primarchs existed together.

In that case, I imagine the primarchs had precedent, since it was one of them that set the High Lords up in the first place (Roboute).

As an aside, Roboute himself was officially a High Lord. The first Master of the Administration, in fact. I'm sure the Fabricator wouldn't dare to get into a scuffle with him.

...well, okay, at least Roboute probably had precedent (knowing him, though, he probably aimed for compromise or solutions that everyone could at least reluctantly agree to).

Honestly though, considering what was going on at the time (the scouring and rebuilding), getting into a scuffle with the primarchs was probably one of the last things on the Fabricator General's mind. The other primarchs were probably off on their own thing scouring the traitors and thus didn't interact with the High Lords that much. In cases where arguments did arise, the fabricator would probably just avoid the issue. None of the survivors of the Heresy wanted a (second) civil war (which is why the primarchs that disagreed with the codex ended up dropping their arguments)

Is there any canon precedent for High Lords (excluding Mr Despot Vandire) having the authority to issue individual edicts owing to their position as a High Lord? I was under the impression it was a committee (Senatorum Imperialis).

 Gashrog wrote:
Is there any canon precedent for High Lords (excluding Mr Despot Vandire) having the authority to issue individual edicts owing to their position as a High Lord? I was under the impression it was a committee (Senatorum Imperialis).

Far as I can tell, it's a comittee. In the few cases the fluff refers to them issuing edicts, it always refers to them as one body. You NEVER see fluff of one specific high lord issuing a specific edit. It's always "the high lords" in plural and with "the".

The High Lords are all leader of a specific branch of the Imperium be it the Church, The Bureaucracy/departement of War, The Navy, the Psyker schools, etc. Technically all that their edicts are voted and approved by the others, but a specific rule that affect only the institution they lead would have very few debates. For exemple, nobody would care if the Grand Ecclesiarch would make an edict on the color and cut of the new robes of the Cardinals during popular mass (it should be teal!!!).

 Gashrog wrote:
Is there any canon precedent for High Lords (excluding Mr Despot Vandire) having the authority to issue individual edicts owing to their position as a High Lord? I was under the impression it was a committee (Senatorum Imperialis).

Also excluding that one Grand Master of Assassins who decided it would be most hilarious to assassinate all the other High Lords. Why someone ever thought having an assassin as one of the High Lords was a good idea is beyond me...

epronovost wrote:
The High Lords are all leader of a specific branch of the Imperium be it the Church, The Bureaucracy/departement of War, The Navy, the Psyker schools, etc. Technically all that their edicts are voted and approved by the others, but a specific rule that affect only the institution they lead would have very few debates. For exemple, nobody would care if the Grand Ecclesiarch would make an edict on the color and cut of the new robes of the Cardinals during popular mass (it should be teal!!!).

I'd guess that the Ecclesiarch would make such a decision based on his authority as head of the Ecclessiarchy, not on his authority as a High Lord. The High Lords likely only decide on stuff that goes beyond a single institution and effects the whole Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:


Honestly though, considering what was going on at the time (the scouring and rebuilding), getting into a scuffle with the primarchs was probably one of the last things on the Fabricator General's mind. The other primarchs were probably off on their own thing scouring the traitors and thus didn't interact with the High Lords that much. In cases where arguments did arise, the fabricator would probably just avoid the issue. None of the survivors of the Heresy wanted a (second) civil war (which is why the primarchs that disagreed with the codex ended up dropping their arguments)

Yeah, I'm agreeing, the Primarchs were higher than the FG, but perhaps not high enough to give outright orders.

I have a number of subordiantes at work. Some I can order around to do practically anything I want. Others I have to ask politely. The FG would probably fall into that category.

Even during the GC, the High Lords existed. The Emperor had the Primarchs running the Legions and prosecuting the Crusade, he didn't have them running his Imperium. Though we'll probably never know for certain, it seemed that the more "civics minded" of the Primarchs were intended to set up systems (like Ultramar) to serve as examples to the rest of the Imperium, but were probably never intended to then run the Imperium themselves.

 Exergy wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:


Honestly though, considering what was going on at the time (the scouring and rebuilding), getting into a scuffle with the primarchs was probably one of the last things on the Fabricator General's mind. The other primarchs were probably off on their own thing scouring the traitors and thus didn't interact with the High Lords that much. In cases where arguments did arise, the fabricator would probably just avoid the issue. None of the survivors of the Heresy wanted a (second) civil war (which is why the primarchs that disagreed with the codex ended up dropping their arguments)

Yeah, I'm agreeing, the Primarchs were higher than the FG, but perhaps not high enough to give outright orders.

I have a number of subordiantes at work. Some I can order around to do practically anything I want. Others I have to ask politely. The FG would probably fall into that category.

In good AdMech fashion, 'Fabricator General' should be abbreviated as FabGen

1.) Build weapons for the Adeptus Terra

2.) Give lip service to the Emperor as the God of Mankind

3.) Don't summon Daemons or collaborate with Xenos

Do this, and a Forge World is pretty much left alone to do whatever it wants.

TiamatRoar wrote:The Fabricator General post-heresy is a High Lord of Terra, so he could overrule pretty much anyone besides another High Lord.

Pre-heresy, there was only one Fabricator General, Kelbor Hal. I'm not aware of him interacting with the primarchs very often, but when he "interacted" with Horus to join Horus in the Heresy, it was more as an ally than a subordinate as far as I can tell (with Horus promising him access to forbidden tech that the Emperor would not allow)

During the Age of Apostacy the mechanicum mostly tried to stay away from the madness. They didn't threaten to break away from the Imperium, at least, not by themselves. When the Fabricator General at the time finally couldn't stand it anymore, he didn't say "Stop that crap Vandire, or else the mechanicum will leave." He instead said "Stop that!", Vandire said "No." and then he said "Hey every member of the Imperium that's not an evil idiot, join me and let's take down this jackass." (which was probably the more correct action to take)

Not that allying with the Imperial siegemasters and their kids helped him break into the Ecclesiastical Palace, which I still find quite amusing. Four chapters of Marines and the entire might of Mars couldn't open a door guarded by ten thousand proto-Sororitas.

Bran Dawri wrote:

Furyou Miko wrote:Not quite. The Mechanicum, Imperial Fists, Soul Drinkers, Fire Hawks and Black Templars moved against Vandire after he hung the rest of the High Lords as traitors.

I knew there was something. So civil war instead of secession then. But I'm pretty sure Vandire demanded they renounce the Omnissiah and accept the God-Emperor was in there somewhere, too.

If so, it didn't make it into the section on the Age of Apostasy and Reign of Blood in the old Sisters book. Seems like a logical thing to assume of Vandire though.

Gashrog wrote:Is there any canon precedent for High Lords (excluding Mr Despot Vandire) having the authority to issue individual edicts owing to their position as a High Lord? I was under the impression it was a committee (Senatorum Imperialis).

It need not be unanimous, but as stated above, I believe the High Lords can only issue single-handed edicts about their own sphere of influence.

That said;

Administratum: "Hmm. Do you think my scribes would look better in blue? Or maybe taupe?"

Mechanicum: "Taupe. Definitely-"

Sororitas: "RED AND BLACK!"

Administratum: "I don't-"

Sororitas: "RED AND BLACK!"

Ecclesiarch: "The Abbess has spoken."

Assassinorium: "I could do something abou-"

Sororitas: "Red. And. Black."

Assassinorium: "sigh."

 Harriticus wrote:
1.) Build weapons for the Adeptus Terra

2.) Give lip service to the Emperor as the avatar of the Omnissiah. Or is Omnissiah the title of the Emperor in his guise as avatar of the Machine God?

3.) Don't summon Daemons or collaborate with Xenos

4.) Don't perform any original research or delve into AI technology.

5.) Report any hint of a whisper of a rumour about anything archeotech related to Mars

Do this, and a Forge World is pretty much left alone to do whatever it wants.

Fixed that for you. Although if they can keep it a secret they might get away with No5, as long as they don't let non-Mechanicus people in control of said artefact.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Sororitas: "Red. And. Black."

Assassinorium: "sigh."

Taupe is Heresy!

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
1.) Build weapons for the Adeptus Terra

2.) Give lip service to the Emperor as the avatar of the Omnissiah. Or is Omnissiah the title of the Emperor in his guise as avatar of the Machine God?

3.) Don't summon Daemons or collaborate with Xenos

4.) Don't perform any original research or delve into AI technology.

5.) Report any hint of a whisper of a rumour about anything archeotech related to Mars

Do this, and a Forge World is pretty much left alone to do whatever it wants.

Fixed that for you. Although if they can keep it a secret they might get away with No5, as long as they don't let non-Mechanicus people in control of said artefact.

The two you added are Ad-Mech rules. If a forge world ignores those the IoM won't really care. It's Mars that would flip out if they started to delve in to AI. Yes, they could bring all sorts of hell down on a forge world with the support of the IoM, but Terra would not really care that much if Mars did not intervene first. As for Xeno tech and research, the Ad-Mech do research all the time, both original and in to xeno and archeotech. Some more extreme factions will probably work with less hostile Xenos if they think they can gain from it.

Exergy wrote:
The AdMech is one of the most powerful orginizations in the imperium. Mars and Earth entered into the JOINT empire represented by the dual headed eagle.

In one of the HH books it says the double headed eagle represents looking to the past and future, with the past head blind to show their forgotten history and that they onoy look to the future of Mankind.

It's probably reasonable to look at the relationship between the IoM and Admech as something similar to the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania. The Admech, is on paper at least, merely ruled by the same ruler of the IoM (Big E, Malcador, High Lords) but are otherwise their own separate empire with their own rules, laws and possessions, although in reality they are nominally subordinate to the IoM (due to 1 High Lord being Martian and the rest Imperial).

 Deadshot wrote:

Exergy wrote:
The AdMech is one of the most powerful orginizations in the imperium. Mars and Earth entered into the JOINT empire represented by the dual headed eagle.

In one of the HH books it says the double headed eagle represents looking to the past and future, with the past head blind to show their forgotten history and that they onoy look to the future of Mankind.

I believe it has multiple meanings.

 Deadshot wrote:

Exergy wrote:
The AdMech is one of the most powerful orginizations in the imperium. Mars and Earth entered into the JOINT empire represented by the dual headed eagle.

In one of the HH books it says the double headed eagle represents looking to the past and future, with the past head blind to show their forgotten history and that they onoy look to the future of Mankind.

surely it can have two meanings

Ninjaed, well actually I just didnt read all the way down. my bad

Administratum: "Hmm. Do you think my scribes would look better in blue? Or maybe taupe?"

Mechanicum: "Taupe. Definitely-"

Sororitas: "RED AND BLACK!"

Administratum: "I don't-"

Sororitas: "RED AND BLACK!"

Ecclesiarch: "The Abbess has spoken."

Assassinorium: "I could do something abou-"

Sororitas: "Red. And. Black."

Assassinorium: "sigh."

And that the reason why The Abbess seat in the High Lord Council isn't permanent! (and probably why when she disapeared 250 years ago no new one was selected)