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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Ah so they may as well not exist :(

Didn't the seventh edition rulebook state that all books published for citadel miniatures are usable? I thought that solved the debate on Forgeworld.

Lets not open that can of worms

Did I miss something? Was not trying to stir up trouble, if you don't mind me asking what did I say that was inflammatory?

 Jaceevoke wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Ah so they may as well not exist :(

Didn't the seventh edition rulebook state that all books published for citadel miniatures are usable? I thought that solved the debate on Forgeworld.

Lets not open that can of worms

Did I miss something? Was not trying to stir up trouble, if you don't mind me asking what did I say that was inflammatory?

Sorry, my attempt to avert disaster is starting to lead the thread off topic. It's a long running debate whether FW should be allowed in "standard" games.

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Ah so they may as well not exist :(

Didn't the seventh edition rulebook state that all books published for citadel miniatures are usable? I thought that solved the debate on Forgeworld.

Yep, it did.

Avenger and Vulture are 100% usable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sorry, my attempt to avert disaster is starting to lead the thread off topic. It's a long running debate whether FW should be allowed in "standard" games.

Which should be a non-issue now that it's no longer ambigious in the slightest.

The Vendetta is slightly over priced now. They should either drop it a bit or restore its transport capacity.

Still a good unit though.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
Didn't the seventh edition rulebook state that all books published for citadel miniatures are usable? I thought that solved the debate on Forgeworld.

The debate of "is FW legal according to GW" was settled a long time ago. FW rules are part of the standard game and can be used just like any other rules GW publishes (codex, WD, etc). However, Makumba apparently plays in a bizarre community where FW is banned, nobody every uses anything but top-tier competitive lists and armies, nobody paints their models because it hurts their value on ebay when they inevitably sell their army to replace it with the next overpowered one, nobody ever plays games outside of tournament practice, etc.

that is not true. People that paint realy well or have the money for paint studios, and want to play in big tournaments do paint themself. Everyone else doesn't, it is a waste of money when it doesn't add anything to the game,so it is better spend the time and money on something else.
And people don't just tournament practice here, In fact most people do not play tournaments here as w40k is going down as a tournament game. It is just that the cost of an army is so high that no one is going to risk buying a bad army.
The same goes with why FW is not allowed here. Escalation showed people that, if FW stuff is ok it will only make the best army better and puts a huge handicap on people who can not buy stuff from FW.
IMO it is stupid from GW to make faction that start to work only when one adds ally , formations, FW. In 5th one could have a good army with one book and no ally were needed.

A fast tri-las BA pred is 20pts cheaper.
It has better front armour, worse side armour, lower accuracy, lower speed, better maneuverability, lack of skyfire, lack of hard to hit, lack of transport cap, ability to start on the board T1. Overall I believe the vendetta needs to be 20pts more than the pred.
That being said, I think the pred is overcosted by about 20pts, because, as has been pointed out, lascannons are a lot poorer than they were in 6th. So 150pts 'feels' about right to me (for the vendetta).

What's all that stuff about lazcannons being worse than before?.. It's vehicles that were garbage due to being made of explodium. At least they don't go boom from non-ap2 now.

 koooaei wrote:
What's all that stuff about lazcannons being worse than before?.. It's vehicles that were garbage due to being made of explodium. At least they don't go boom from non-ap2 now.

Its far more efficient to usually just go for the HP stripping than the explodes result, resulting in heavy AT guns being relatively less effective in an AT role for their investment relative to cheaper, mulishot weapons in many cases. Why bother with an expensive heavy S9 or 10 platform when a grip of S6-7 units will do the job cheaper and be more effective against a wider range of units in most cases?

Cause of vehicle damage table and MC hunting?

Low RoF, high-strength weapons like lascannons are inefficient against monstrous creatures.

The vendetta for example is knocking 2 wounds off a T6 MC a turn, and that's assuming that it has no cover save or invuln (which in today's world is pretty unlikely).

Straight-up wrecking a vehicle is preferable to immobilizing/weapon destroyed etc, and mid-strength, high RoF weapons are better at HP stripping. Compare Punisher-Pask to a Vanquisher. The Punisher outperforms the Vanquisher against every unit type, as does the flyrant against pretty much everything that isn't AV 14/14/14 or 13/13/13.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Low RoF, high-strength weapons like lascannons are inefficient against monstrous creatures.

The vendetta for example is knocking 2 wounds off a T6 MC a turn, and that's assuming that it has no cover save or invuln (which in today's world is pretty unlikely).

Straight-up wrecking a vehicle is preferable to immobilizing/weapon destroyed etc, and mid-strength, high RoF weapons are better at HP stripping. Compare Punisher-Pask to a Vanquisher. The Punisher outperforms the Vanquisher against every unit type, as does the flyrant against pretty much everything that isn't AV 14/14/14 or 13/13/13.

Let's compare a LC to an AC - the most common alternative in IG dex.

Against t6 3+:
LC - no cover/invul - 0.833 wounds, 5+ - 0.555 wounds, 4+ - 0.444 wounds
AC - 0.444 wounds

Against t7 3+:
LC - no cover/invul - 0.833 wounds, 5+ - 0.555 wounds, 4+ - 0.444 wounds
AC - 0.333 wounds

Against t6 2+:
LC - no cover/invul - 0.833 wounds, 5+ - 0.555 wounds, 4+ - 0.444 wounds
AC - 0.222 wounds

Sure thing, it depends on cover/invul but firstly, not many MC have good invul. You may force them to stick to cover or go jinking. Besides, what else are you gona use to deal with FMC? Can't kill them all with just Pasknisher.

LC are much better vs av13+ which is also quite common now.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Low RoF, high-strength weapons like lascannons are inefficient against monstrous creatures.

The vendetta for example is knocking 2 wounds off a T6 MC a turn, and that's assuming that it has no cover save or invuln (which in today's world is pretty unlikely).

Straight-up wrecking a vehicle is preferable to immobilizing/weapon destroyed etc, and mid-strength, high RoF weapons are better at HP stripping. Compare Punisher-Pask to a Vanquisher. The Punisher outperforms the Vanquisher against every unit type, as does the flyrant against pretty much everything that isn't AV 14/14/14 or 13/13/13.

Mhm, we're at the complete inverse of 4th and 5th edition where shooting a vehicle with anything other than an AP1 weapon was considered a waste of time and energy, unless you were trying to stunlock something.

Of course, the problem with that era is tank would be pen by various weapons time and time again doing no permanent damage (irritating especially as AP2 didn't do anything, which were most AT weapons as they are today - lascannons, Vanquisher cannons, etc), and in 6th vehicles died to everything, and now shooting a dedicated AT weapon at a vehicle is a waste of time. Bizarre reversal, where an Ordnance Armourbane St 8/9/10 AP1/2 weapon is in all respects a worse weapon to have than something with a bunch of St 7 AP- shots.

This, however, has more to do with how few hull point standard vehicles have and how easy it is to get rid of them. To compare, how much would you want to pay for a T8 model with one gun, no save of any kind and no ability to strike in melee, and can only move 6'' a turn? Probably not as much as a Leman Russ Battletank.

Thus, tank hunter units like Vendettas, Vanquishers, tri-las Predators and so on aren't very popular. If my Vanquishers didn't have St8 Ap2 Instant Death small blasts, I'd never use one. Hence the Vulture, Avenger and other flyers just being better choices in almost all cases over a vendetta, and are cheaper too, as GW's rules team still thinks single shot AT weapons are good.

Also, good luck with s6-7 spam against blitz brigade.

I honestly don't have any complaints about the Vendetta in its current state. Restoring its Transport capacity would be nice, but that would basically make the Valkyrie a non-choice in the codex, which Guard already have too many of given the dex's horrid internal balance.

I mostly like the fast tri-las pred for the range and it's turn 1 presence.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Honestly I think it's a pretty dang good flyer. It's not forge world though - so it's not brokenly overpowered. Look through the codex's - It's easily the best armed flyer in a codex (cept maybe the spacewolf flyer that costs way more) and it's not even the most expensive and its av 12 and it has transport capacity.

Flyers that aren't MC's just aren't very good in this edition unless it's a chaos fire raptor.

What on earth does it being FW or not have anything to do with it? There's what, like 1 FW flyer that people complain about, and makes effectively zero appearances in tournament armies?

Don't kid yourself - the Good FW flyers (there are many) are hands down better than any of the codex flyers. It's so glaringly obvious that it's not even worth debating. The point I was making is that if FW flyers were excluded - the Vendetta would probably be regarded as the best non MC flyer in the game - yet still wouldn't be seen in tournaments because of time. 3 TL laz? The thing is great for the price - you can barely get that kind of firepower from a tank that costs that much and suffers from a list of problems that the vendetta doesn't. The only downside of it is the same downside all flyers have - they can't start on the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I mostly like the fast tri-las pred for the range and it's turn 1 presence.

You should really take 3 of them if you are going to bring 1. Synergy is the way to victory. If everything is fast and long range - you can win with it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Honestly I think it's a pretty dang good flyer. It's not forge world though - so it's not brokenly overpowered. Look through the codex's - It's easily the best armed flyer in a codex (cept maybe the spacewolf flyer that costs way more) and it's not even the most expensive and its av 12 and it has transport capacity.

Flyers that aren't MC's just aren't very good in this edition unless it's a chaos fire raptor.

What on earth does it being FW or not have anything to do with it? There's what, like 1 FW flyer that people complain about, and makes effectively zero appearances in tournament armies?

Don't kid yourself - the Good FW flyers (there are many) are hands down better than any of the codex flyers. It's so glaringly obvious that it's not even worth debating. The point I was making is that if FW flyers were excluded - the Vendetta would probably be regarded as the best non MC flyer in the game - yet still wouldn't be seen in tournaments because of time. 3 TL laz? The thing is great for the price - you can barely get that kind of firepower from a tank that costs that much and suffers from a list of problems that the vendetta doesn't. The only downside of it is the same downside all flyers have - they can't start on the board.

I wouldn't say their only downside is that they can't start on the board, if you bring a land platform you can have one start on the field. Their biggest weakness is compared to FMCs, especially the idiocy that is the flyrant, they are weak. Fliers with their range and having to only take up to a 90 degree turn can be easy to stay out of their firing arc.

Also for their cost of 170 I would at least ask for bs4, hitting on 4s for 3 TL las is still overpriced.

Honestly most vehicle flyers are a trap in the current edition of the game. You are purchasing a unit which will contribute an average of 2 turns in a 6 turn game and cannot claim objectives.

I agree that in a pure IG list it is usually a necessary evil to take 1 or 2 vendettas. However don't give exaggerations like 2 vendettas will somehow give any benefit at all against a pentyrant build or the turn 1 charge BA gimmick list. Even 3 vendettas will be unlikely to kill a single flyrant before being flown behind and removed. Flyrant is so small it usually can get cover and it can always jink. The return fire of even a snap firing Flyrant will average almost 2 HP on rear av 10 and a normal Flyrant will kill a vendetta jink or no. Against such a list you are actually better served with a strong ground game and playing to objectives. The BA gimmick list does everything important turn 1 and 2 before the vendetta come on. After that a vendetta and Stormraven dog fight is pretty even with the Stormraven winning most of the time.

The Vendetta has reasonable power, in an increasingly unreasonably powerful game.

I'd play tested a Vendetta at 170 points when it still had a 10-man transport capacity, and it was pretty reasonable at that time. With the increased amazingness of FMC, and the inability to carry a Veteran squad, the value of a Vendetta has plummeted.

That said, what else are you going to take in-codex? A pair of Hydras?

They're a little overpriced. That said, nothing else in-codex does what they can do, so you're kind of in a bind for what you'd take. Valk has no "real" ability to dogfight, and the Hydra sinks as soon as something gets close to it, with weak side armour and Open-Topped.

150 would probably be less agonizing, at 130 they'd still be a little undervalued. 140 would be quite good. Dropping a Hydra to 50 / 55 points would also be a game changer.

 RunicFIN wrote:
I don't think there are 3 flying twinlascs in the game for the same price anywhere else.

Two single lascannons with strafing run (BS4 is slightly better than BS3 rerollable but it's a difference of 8% chance to hit) plus the seven S6 shots for 150pts is about as close as you're going to get and that comes with two hull points, 10 side armour, and no transport capacity. The Vendetta is pretty good at its job.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Don't kid yourself - the Good FW flyers (there are many) are hands down better than any of the codex flyers. It's so glaringly obvious that it's not even worth debating.

Such as? I mean, we aren't exactly seeing FW flyers overrun tables here. There's some powerful FW flyers, but they're all very high up in points costs. It's very much worth debating if you're going to make a claim like that. When you see FW stuff in armies, it's very rarely the flyers.

The point I was making is that if FW flyers were excluded - the Vendetta would probably be regarded as the best non MC flyer in the game - yet still wouldn't be seen in tournaments because of time. 3 TL laz? The thing is great for the price - you can barely get that kind of firepower from a tank that costs that much and suffers from a list of problems that the vendetta doesn't. The only downside of it is the same downside all flyers have - they can't start on the board.

Yes, it's one of the better flyers in the game just looking at flyers in and of themselves, the problem is that for its intended role, it'd actually be much more useful as a Fast Skimmer and be able to be deployed turn 1, than as an actual Flyer.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Don't kid yourself - the Good FW flyers (there are many) are hands down better than any of the codex flyers. It's so glaringly obvious that it's not even worth debating.

Such as? I mean, we aren't exactly seeing FW flyers overrun tables here. There's some powerful FW flyers, but they're all very high up in points costs. It's very much worth debating if you're going to make a claim like that. When you see FW stuff in armies, it's very rarely the flyers.

The point I was making is that if FW flyers were excluded - the Vendetta would probably be regarded as the best non MC flyer in the game - yet still wouldn't be seen in tournaments because of time. 3 TL laz? The thing is great for the price - you can barely get that kind of firepower from a tank that costs that much and suffers from a list of problems that the vendetta doesn't. The only downside of it is the same downside all flyers have - they can't start on the board.

Yes, it's one of the better flyers in the game just looking at flyers in and of themselves, the problem is that for its intended role, it'd actually be much more useful as a Fast Skimmer and be able to be deployed turn 1, than as an actual Flyer.

Agree with you 100%. In general flyers are just bad - mostly because FMC and having to be held in reserve. If flyers could start on the board you'd see them a whole lot more. You'd probably never play a game without a flyer if that was the case. Though I basically swore to myself never to take a flyer again when a FMC did a vector stike on my AV 11 flyer with 2 HP...auto hits...no jink allowed...it's a giant joke. Point remains though - if the game was strictly a game of non MC flyers - the vendetta would actually be a good choice IMO.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
BS4 is slightly better than BS3 rerollable but it's a difference of 8% chance to hit

BS3 rerollable is 75% chance to hit, BS4 is 66% chance to hit.

Vendettas are pretty garbage for their points. 130 in 5th was underpriced because, as others have stated, the thing could deliver a massive alpha strike.

Since then, it gained 40 points, lost 4 off its transport capacity, lost Scout (and by extension Outflank, which was amazing on a flier), can't start on the board, and its weapons have significantly reduced effectiveness.

It's worth maybe 130 points now. As it is, I never use them, and this is coming from a guy who used 2 in every 5th edition game. Vultures win every day. Still waiting on a nice non-GW/FW set of miniguns to retrofit my Vendettas so they may actually see some WYSIWYG use.

Nuggz you may want to look into the Taurox miniguns, im sure someone is selling the bits out there.

 ultimentra wrote:
Nuggz you may want to look into the Taurox miniguns, im sure someone is selling the bits out there.

Cheers! Also thought about finding some giant miniguns to mount to the nose of the things...sort of like an A10 Warthog.